League scheme change (Aerial)

[TheWalrus]

I agree with Lupastic. It's far from a Shopper. It is not Quickdraw that doesn't have crates. I think that if the original Aerial from PS1 and HHC's scheme have crates in the scheme, then I think crates are part of the concept. Crates with Jet Pack are a good combination. I played with Sensei and I realized that the crates add a lot of fun to the game. It changes things. You cannot simply wait on the edge of the map for the eternity, using the wind like in Hysteria. If you do this, The oponent has more time to catch you, and if it is risky to catch you, a crate can be really scary. Crates pressure the game a lot more, because if you darkside, the opponent will control the map and collect crates. Crates make you think a lot more than a scheme without crates. They add a lot more possibilities in the game, this is something that a pro should master.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but possibly shows your inexperience with the scheme and strategy in general.  I could understand how it seems like this could be correct about the crates, but ultimately it is the inverse.  While darksiding allows the opponent to collect crates, this isn't so powerful as to compell a worm to stay on top just to collect theoretical crates.

I would, however, like you to believe that it is and don't hide your worms against me so I can kill them.  Crates don't appreciably increase the skill ceiling, that is pretty much nonsense.  That being said, I don't have an issue with crates in this scheme.  I don't think they add much, but they aren't an issue. 

After a bit of discussion on this, pretty much the only issue with the original TUS (HHC) scheme is random mines, and the lack of a device (sudden death) to mitigate random position and turn order losses.  Crates can stay or go, mostly they will effect games and provide wins to players that get lucky that would have otherwise not won the game, but that happens in T17 too. 

But come on, crates do not improve the level of play, or serve as a deep strategical gameplay mechanic.  But they can be fun.  Mostly they are just a big bag of nothing, those that are good at this scheme a lot don't even go out of their way to collect them. 

[TheKomodo]

It's this sentence here that got me:

Crates make you think a lot more than a scheme without crates. They add a lot more possibilities in the game, this is something that a pro should master.

Think of it this way...

You can only ever do one thing at a time, and when I say one thing at a time think of it as go in one direction at a time... You can't do something, then turn back time then try something different, you have one route, one path to take you into the future.

There are multiple paths to the future though, there are almost limitless potential events that can take place between the start of the game and the end of the game.

Whether there are crates or not, there are still limitless potential events that can take place.

So it's kind of a trick, an illusion, having rare crates doesn't add a lot more possibilities in the game, they add DIFFERENT theoretical possibilities in the game.

What is DOES increase though, is luck factor, aka the almighty overlord RNG!

So yeah, I understand what FoxHound is getting at, but he just hasn't thought about it deep enough.

[Sensei]

Crates really don't do that much of a difference. After literally thousands of Aerial rounds, I never got things like Armageddon, Donkey.. Pretty rarely it happens you pull off Air strike/HHG or similar...

I don't like the idea of having only certain crates/utilities dropping. That way there won't be those midgame mindboggling situations: "should I miss one turn and go and try to get that crate on the other side... should I hover above utility for possible x2 dmg next turn, and risk losing good hide"..

The way it is now, player have options.. Crates challenge you to think about your midgame tactics. How many hp/worms you're in deficit.. Is risking a turn, or maybe a whole game worth it over some unknown crate drop?? It adds a bit fun to the scheme but it isn't gamebreaking. Better player will eventually overcome a possible lucky crate of an opponent, since bo3 there's always another try.. It balances things. Anyway, even now when weapon % probabilities are not set up in a truly competitive manner, big chances are you're gonna get something useless like a skunk or few more blow torches in that crate you risked whole round to get.

BO1 for this scheme would mean strip it apart just to make it quicker. If you remove random placements, you'll get shorter Elite. If you remove crates, you'll get a Hyst with +2 seconds. Why destroy whole concept of a scheme to make it more similar to schemes that are already part of the league?

It's like having BnG with 50hp, instead of 200hp. Why? So we can finish all league games under 3mins. Is that a competitive goal that we need to achieve here?

 

[TheKomodo]

This is not a joke or a dig etc, I actually don't know if you ever bother to read my posts in full Sensei, as multiple times I ask you genuine questions and you just ignore them and talk about other stuff.

So, since I'm not sure you will read all the way to the end I'll ask this twice, once now, and then again where it's actually relevant:

Though, this does make me want to ask you directly, Sensei:

What IS Aerial? At least, to YOU?

Ok, now with my actual reply!

Crates really don't do that much of a difference. After literally thousands of Aerial rounds, I never got things like Armageddon, Donkey.. Pretty rarely it happens you pull off Air strike/HHG or similar...

I've never seen super weapons myself in Aerial yet, honestly haven't even checked if they are possible!

One phenomenon in life that has always personally bugged me, is when people use "It's rare" as a reason to accept something that isn't efficient or beneficial. It happens every day all over the world in multiple aspects of everyday life. When people say "Oh it's fine, it's rare, it'll never happen to us!" though when it does happen to them, it's only THEN they realize that it didn't have to happen in the first place! They get extremely frustrated, even more so when THEY start complaining about it and everyone else says "Don't worry, it's not a big deal, it rarely ever happens!".

The sheer fact that it CAN happen, is the very reason why it shouldn't be acceptable, especially when you can EASILY solve that problem!

The way it is now, player have options.. Crates challenge you to think about your midgame tactics. How many hp/worms you're in deficit.. Is risking a turn, or maybe a whole game worth it over some unknown crate drop?? It adds a bit fun to the scheme but it isn't gamebreaking.

You said "but it isn't gamebreaking". Well, this depends on perspective. It literally does not break the game, but then again, I don't know any combination of settings that literally breaks the game.

However, one could say it ruins the whole point of competing seriously in the first place.  As why bother striving for perfection when one day you will inevitably get f**ked over by a lucky crate?

Better player will eventually overcome a possible lucky crate of an opponent, since bo3 there's always another try.. It balances things. Anyway, even now when weapon % probabilities are not set up in a truly competitive manner, big chances are you're gonna get something useless like a skunk or few more blow torches in that crate you risked whole round to get.

Yeah, until it happens twice in a row, which is not only definitely possible, I've seen it happen enough times in the past 24 years over various schemes which is why I feel the way I do about "luck" in schemes.

The funny psychological aspect of this is I can still look at myself from the outside and see that I am a minority in the same sense of talking about "rare things" as I explained in the part above.

Most of you don't care because there's not a lot of people complaining about this, and the only people I ever see complain is when it happens to them on a day where they are already on edge and THAT is when they change their mind!

It's not a problem when it's the problem of the minority, but people change their tune when they become the minority.

You're right though, you could take a big risk and end up with something close to useless in a crate.

Which is funny because when I get something bad in a crate I'll say "Wtf is the point in this?" and when I get something good I still say "Wtf is the point in this?".

BO1 for this scheme would mean strip it apart just to make it quicker. If you remove random placements, you'll get shorter Elite. If you remove crates, you'll get a Hyst with +2 seconds. Why destroy whole concept of a scheme to make it more similar to schemes that are already part of the league?

I thought the purpose of making Aerial Bo1 would make it longer?

Your examples are a bit outrageous and exaggerated here lol.

By removing random placements, it's NOT Elite.

By removing crates, it's NOT Hysteria.



Though, this does make me want to ask you directly, Sensei:

What IS Aerial? At least, to YOU?

It's like having BnG with 50hp, instead of 200hp. Why? So we can finish all league games under 3mins. Is that a competitive goal that we need to achieve here?

I've actually said earlier, time is not an issue, it's not about making things faster, it's about making them more skill based and less luck based, more balanced!

[Sbaffo]

Booooring

Here's a delicious recipe you should try to cook during christmas: Brodo di cardone (Cardoon in Broth)

Cardoon in broth is a typical dish from Abruzzo. What is cardoon? Cardoon belongs to the artichoke family; it is a vegetable that can reach a height of up to one and a half meters, with ribbed leaves similar to celery. In cooking, only the ribs of the plant are used. To facilitate the preparation of this exquisite dish, it is preferable to use cardoon that is already cleaned and cut into small pieces.





3 Eggs
1 tablespoon Pecorino cheese
2 tablespoons Parmesan cheese
to taste Salt
to taste Pepper
to taste Extra virgin olive oil
1 liter of chicken broth

Preparation

Remove the white skin covering the cardoon, then eliminate all the filaments.
Wear gloves; otherwise, your hands will remain black for days. As you fillet them, immediately immerse them in water to prevent them from turning black. At this point, cut into small pieces and let them sit in a bowl of water with lemon for a few hours to release the bitter flavor. This last step also applies to those who purchase it already cleaned.

Place a pot on the stove with plenty of cold water. Add salt, the juice of half a squeezed lemon, and a teaspoon of flour. Adding flour to the water helps the vegetable remain white and prevents it from turning black during cooking. When the water boils, add the cardoon, blanch it, and after draining, immerse it in cold water to lose its bitter taste.

Mix ground meat with 1 egg, salt, pecorino, parsley, and make small meatballs. Immerse them in boiling broth, add the drained and gently squeezed cardoon, and finish by adding the remaining eggs beaten with Parmesan and pepper. Stir quickly and serve immediately.

Merrry Christmas!

[TheWalrus]

Booooring

Here's a delicious recipe you should try to cook during christmas: Brodo di cardone (Cardoon in Broth)

Cardoon in broth is a typical dish from Abruzzo. What is cardoon? Cardoon belongs to the artichoke family; it is a vegetable that can reach a height of up to one and a half meters, with ribbed leaves similar to celery. In cooking, only the ribs of the plant are used. To facilitate the preparation of this exquisite dish, it is preferable to use cardoon that is already cleaned and cut into small pieces.





3 Eggs
1 tablespoon Pecorino cheese
2 tablespoons Parmesan cheese
to taste Salt
to taste Pepper
to taste Extra virgin olive oil
1 liter of chicken broth

Preparation

Remove the white skin covering the cardoon, then eliminate all the filaments.
Wear gloves; otherwise, your hands will remain black for days. As you fillet them, immediately immerse them in water to prevent them from turning black. At this point, cut into small pieces and let them sit in a bowl of water with lemon for a few hours to release the bitter flavor. This last step also applies to those who purchase it already cleaned.

Place a pot on the stove with plenty of cold water. Add salt, the juice of half a squeezed lemon, and a teaspoon of flour. Adding flour to the water helps the vegetable remain white and prevents it from turning black during cooking. When the water boils, add the cardoon, blanch it, and after draining, immerse it in cold water to lose its bitter taste.

Mix ground meat with 1 egg, salt, pecorino, parsley, and make small meatballs. Immerse them in boiling broth, add the drained and gently squeezed cardoon, and finish by adding the remaining eggs beaten with Parmesan and pepper. Stir quickly and serve immediately.

Merrry Christmas!

Nice, but where is the recipe for boiled gufo?

[Chelsea]

Aerial scheme by HHC is so much better.

[Sbaffo]

Nice, but where is the recipe for boiled gufo?

You are an awful person

[Kaleu]

I believe that the smartest thing to do is to only consider the opinions of those who are actually playing worms, more specifically leagues and the scheme in question.
That being said, FoxHound is a schem enthusiast, even if he's not an active player in the league, his opinions has a much more relevant value to the discussion than people who have been here longer but whose great achievement is being a full time forum poster, please reconsider and move on with this.

Not trying to get too personal here, it's just the way I think it's worth solving.
People who really have a reputation for pushing the scheme forward should have the final say (without considering MI obiously, he's the final Boss).

[TheKomodo]

I believe that the smartest thing to do is to only consider the opinions of those who are actually playing worms, more specifically leagues and the scheme in question.

No, that's actually nowhere near the smartest thing to do.

If we(the entire human race) did that in general for everything, we would fail miserably.

What we SHOULD do, is use a healthy balance of logical and emotional thinking, consume all the information available to us and THEN make a decision.

So in reality the dumbest thing we could do, is take your hatred-based advice.

Side note, I do actually still play Worms Armageddon and the scheme in question though.

[TheWalrus]

So.....edit out airstrike probability of crates, 3 sec mines, SD.  Those seem to be the ones everyone agrees on?  Everything else there is conjecture, but those seem to be ironclad.  Crates are already there and probably should be kept if there is no consensus.  There has been no support of non-SD aerial, and no support of random mines.  That already makes the scheme better, and would be changes I think will satisfy everyone. 

[TheKomodo]

So.....edit out airstrike probability of crates, 3 sec mines, SD.  Those seem to be the ones everyone agrees on?  Everything else there is conjecture, but those seem to be ironclad.  Crates are already there and probably should be kept if there is no consensus.  There has been no support of non-SD aerial, and no support of random mines.  That already makes the scheme better, and would be changes I think will satisfy everyone.

Nope.

There are people here can't even answer genuine simple questions or even SLIGHTLY back up why this scheme is even being suggested in the first place.

All we've got is "I've played 236 games, so I get to decide".

Not everybody agrees on those, which is evident for anyone who reads the entire thread(ignoring the non-related posts).

Though, unfortunately imo, I'll give you that the majority agrees with this ridiculous scheme setup lol.

Though what does it matter, there are so many trainwrecks in Allround and Free League so why should we bother trying to fix it anyway...

I'm being sarcastic, but that seems to be the general consensus anyway.

[MonkeyIsland]

So in reality the dumbest thing we could do, is take your hatred-based advice.

You do this a lot in your posts. An unnecessary attack. It doesn't change Kaleu's opinion. It just pollutes the thread.

All we've got is "I've played 236 games, so I get to decide".

If you think Sensei's 236 is nonsense, why don't you play with him a series of aerial matches? Show us the results. I'm sure we'll profit.

[TheKomodo]

You do this a lot in your posts. An unnecessary attack. It doesn't change Kaleu's opinion. It just pollutes the thread.

Are you blind?

It was a counter-attack, actually. Though yes, I do it a lot, because people attack me a lot unprovoked because they can't debate the actual facts they just attack the people they don't like instead.

You look at my entire history of posts and you will see this pattern where they resort to ad-hominems, and yes I'm more than happy to fight fire with fire, I grew up that way.

It's very rare where I actually lose my temper out of nowhere first.

Of course I'm going to defend myself when people say stupid things directed at me.

As for playing with Sensei, maybe I would if he was a nicer person to actually associate with. He isn't though in my opinion, so I won't.

I'm struggling to get people together to test Aerial/Forts for my own Cup


In conclusion:

I know I have a nerdy and persistant side that annoys people, that I go into great detail about pretty much everything and it seems to bore or annoy a lot of people, the truth is that's their problem not mine.

I know a lot of people respect me and appreciate it as well! You cannot please everyone.

There is no rule about how little or lengthy posts need to be.

When they attack me instead of attacking the actual things I'm saying, don't come at me and tell me that it's unnecessary.

I'll only end up losing respect for you to side with people making the opening attacks in the first place.


Now, I've politely asked Sensei to go into detail about Aerial multiple times and clearly he doesn't want to, for whatever reason.

That's enough to tell me that this decision is a shambles because there's no factual or logical evidence to support it.

Like me or hate me THAT is the truth.


ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO THE SUBJECT OF THE POST:

I'll ask ONE more time:

Somebody, anybody, because Sensei seems to not be bothered.

Explain why these changes are beneficial to Aerial as opposed to trying to make the scheme more suitable for Bo1.

Please, don't use "more fun" as an example for including crates, we don't add crates in every scheme for them to be fun so this is not acceptable. It feels like laziness to me.

If the goal is to make the scheme more "balanced" to be more "competitive" so that it's less "luck based", then crates simply have no place here whatsoever and that's a fact. If you want crates because you think the scheme is boring without it, then please just say that so we can separate those who enjoy luck from those who enjoy ACTUALLY balanced schemes.

-----

So far Sensei has accused Aerial of feeling like Hysteria and Elite by taking out crates or making it manual placement, I'd like to know how many other people, if any, agree with that statement and it's important that people answer why.

To be fair, I do like the randomness that random placements provide, though I'm sure there's other ways to tackle this than just get rid of it. To be fair though I've never even tried Aerial with manual placement, has anyone else?

If so then what were the results how did you feel it affected the gameplay? Answer on 2 levels please:

1) Did it make the scheme feel more balanced so that it doesn't matter who got 1st turn?
2) Did it make the scheme feel more or less enjoyable and why?


Last but not least! Take the following into account:

Some research has been done by Korydex and surprisingly there are more players who win who get 2nd turn that first, and that's Bo1 games:

So I've done Hyst/Aerial comparison and got some weird results.
In 991 Aerial replays first player won in 414 and second in 423.
In 1518 Hyst replays first player won in 613 and second in 629.
There were a lot of quits tho, so I guess in some games winner wasnt properly counted (draw occured).
If we skip all replays where there was a disconnect of any player it's 354/375 in Aerial and 497/522 in Hyst.
Even more shocking though is average length of aerial replay is 702,4 seconds and hysteria replay 702,95. So almost exactly the same :0

Also, as TheWalrus has pointed out, which should be obvious...

Team17 has more luck than Aerial and Intermediate combined and is only Bo1.

Why the hell do we need Bo3 for Aerial lol?

One could say that Intermediate requires it due to starting placements, though it's more about overall luck and using Bo3 as a method to balance that luck, which would still apply to Team17 in the sense of "balancing" the scheme to make it reflect the "better player".

We don't need that though because even as Sensei and others has pointed out, using their own words against them the standings still reflect the "better players" in the long run.

[Sensei]

I didn't answer you cause when you didn't know what next to ask and make it into a novel, you wrote: "What IS Aerial for you, Sensei!??"

I'm sorry Komo, but sometimes I just don't see a reason continuing conversation with you. If that makes me "not nice to associate with" in your eyes - then I'm sorry again.

I agree with Kaleu. This topic should be decided based on opinions of people that actually played or are about to play mentioned scheme.

@korydex - were those 991 games of Aerial played with HHC's scheme? Cause that's the one without sudden death. The one we're trying to change atm...