should hysteria be moved to the free league?

[DarkOne]

Missing the point.

No, YOU are missing the point.

I make a post that makes no reference to your post, therefore, there is no point to miss.
You make a reference to my post, missing the point of my post.

Saying NOU doesn't change the facts

Fine. Make a solid argument that killing your own worm in turn 1 by dropping it in the water without damaging your opponent is useful if you're not allowed to abuse turn order. Because that scenario is why people think hysteria is a dumb scheme.

[TheKomodo]

Fine. Make a solid argument that killing your own worm in turn 1 by dropping it in the water without damaging your opponent is useful if you're not allowed to abuse turn order. Because that scenario is why people think hysteria is a dumb scheme.

Off the top of my head, if I have 3 worms on top in nice positions, and my 1st turn is a worm below, and there are no more nice spots left, I will sacrifice that worm so I can focus on having the worms in nice positions to execute nice shots.

That's useful.

But yes, I have actually done it ALSO for turn advantage, which isn't bad, people do it in other schemes as well, why don't people complain about that? When people use kamikaze in Elite? Or sacrifice a worm in Roper or WxW or Team17 or Shopper to gain turn advantage.

Have to go back to work now I might add to this list later.


As for your solution, sorry but I see it as a problem only to people who make it that way in their head, it isn't REALLY a problem, you can't fix what isn't broke, you can make changes to improve it for yourself though.

[DarkOne]

Off the top of my head, if I have 3 worms on top in nice positions, and my 1st turn is a worm below, and there are no more nice spots left, I will sacrifice that worm so I can focus on having the worms in nice positions to execute nice shots.

That's useful.

...but objectively inferior to simply teleporting to a better position, unless you plan to abuse turn order.

[...]people do it in other schemes as well, why don't people complain about that? When people use kamikaze in Elite? Or sacrifice a worm in Roper or WxW or Team17 or Shopper to gain turn advantage.

It has been posted here often enough why people think it's a problem in hysteria. When people use kamikaze in elite, they tend to also do a lot of damage to the opposing team with that kami.
When they sacrifice a worm in roper, they do that when the worm is almost dead, not at the start of the game.
Same with WxW and shopper (though I don't know that that ever took place from my own experience, generally, people hold on to their worms).

How often have you seen people sacrifice worms in the latter 3 schemes btw?
I've only had one game of shopper where I killed a worm in my first turn and my opponent followed with perfect piling strategy. He still wasn't able to overcome the loss of that worm, though. Seems counterproductive to not only lose the worm, but also lose a turn to do so.

Nobody is arguing that sacrificing a worm is always a bad thing. You are the only one here who thinks we are.
The argument is that killing off your own worm at the start of the game is a good idea in current hysteria, regardless of the situation.

[TheKomodo]

1st off, thanks for debating in a civilized manner, and putting effort/theory into your posts, now i'm enjoying it

Off the top of my head, if I have 3 worms on top in nice positions, and my 1st turn is a worm below, and there are no more nice spots left, I will sacrifice that worm so I can focus on having the worms in nice positions to execute nice shots.

That's useful.

...but objectively inferior to simply teleporting to a better position, unless you plan to abuse turn order.

I would always teleport to a better position where one is available, and I will always take advantage of turn order when I feel I need to.

You say "abuse" I say "use" that's the difference right there between us, one mans trash is anothers treasure, as I said before Hysteria has no rules, the objective of the game is to win, no one is being hurt, YOU are limiting your own experience.

[...]people do it in other schemes as well, why don't people complain about that? When people use kamikaze in Elite? Or sacrifice a worm in Roper or WxW or Team17 or Shopper to gain turn advantage.

It has been posted here often enough why people think it's a problem in hysteria. When people use kamikaze in elite, they tend to also do a lot of damage to the opposing team with that kami.
When they sacrifice a worm in roper, they do that when the worm is almost dead, not at the start of the game.
Same with WxW and shopper (though I don't know that that ever took place from my own experience, generally, people hold on to their worms).

Actually, i've seen people plop their 1st worm immediately in WxW/Shopper for 2 reasons - Turn advantage, and it makes the game quicker.

And notice you said "why people THINK it's a problem", I cannot argue with that, you said it perfectly, they THINK.

The argument is that killing off your own worm at the start of the game is a good idea in current hysteria, regardless of the situation.

Sometimes it's a good idea, sometimes it's not, it depends on the map, where the worms are positioned, and turn order, I don't go randomly killing worms for no reason lol.

[TheWalrus]

well ive argued with no one more than dave on these forums, but i agree with everything hes said essentially.  you can assassinate his character all you want, but the basis of his arguments is sound.  the way hes gone about it is a little obtuse, but attacking the man isn't the only avenue here.

[DarkOne]

1st off, thanks for debating in a civilized manner, and putting effort/theory into your posts, now i'm enjoying it

That's how I generally post A shouting match is fun for other people, but in the end, both parties think they won the argument and feel the other guy didn't listen. So not something I particularly enjoy.

To be clear, I'm not against turn order abuse as a strategy. It's a good way to improve your chances when you've been dealt a bad card with worm placement and such. It's also a good counter against people hiding one of their 80 HP worms in a difficult/impossible to hit spot while dealing damage with the others.

I just think it becomes silly if there are people who go straight for those tactics in every game right off the bat (which severely limits the possibilities of the scheme imo). Several people have severely overused this strategy straight from the start against me, which killed the fun of the scheme for me.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that assessment, either.

[TheKomodo]

That's how I generally post A shouting match is fun for other people, but in the end, both parties think they won the argument and feel the other guy didn't listen. So not something I particularly enjoy.

When someone yells at me, i'll yell back, in a way it's shows them i'm not going to be intimidated no matter how many stand against me or whatever bullsh*t they throw in my face, but everytime if someone talks to me civilized, i'll be civilized with them

I'm very mushy, generous and kind hearted, but always prepared to fight.

However I sometimes get carried away(like the post with lalo), and that feels bad, especially with some of the things we've experienced together.

To be clear, I'm not against turn order abuse as a strategy. It's a good way to improve your chances when you've been dealt a bad card with worm placement and such. It's also a good counter against people hiding one of their 80 HP worms in a difficult/impossible to hit spot while dealing damage with the others.

Yep

I just think it becomes silly if there are people who go straight for those tactics in every game right off the bat (which severely limits the possibilities of the scheme imo). Several people have severely overused this strategy straight from the start against me, which killed the fun of the scheme for me.


I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that assessment, either.

I totally agree with you there mate, it IS silly people who use this tactic every single game, but I love the fact the choice is there, for me it makes the game very dynamic

The difference here is you never dictated that it's dumb, or non-competitive etc, you said it like it is, and that you don't like it, that's all i've ever asked of anyone.

[Peja]

Random turn order transforms Hysteria into a  worse, less skilled BnG clone. Plop your worms from the start is like piling each worm of your opponent in elite to me. You speed up the game.

A good BnG player like Komo might even be happy if someone goes 80 hp turnorder tele on several low/mid hp worms. 80 hp is 2 shots, if you hit them. In this scenario 20, 25, 30 beats 80 hp all the time.

There are a few counter elements when it comes to league hysteria.
To fully turn it into cheap version of BnG, is the same as lalo and others did to shopper.
Instead of being forced to react to unique mechanics, you can win it by Nades and Zooks alone.
Instead of being forced to optimize your knocks, go for several attack combos, bait opponents to go for specific worms, you simply turn it into a 30 second roper.

Making schemes more similar to each other in order to raise the needed skill level doesnt make the league allround, it does the opposite.
Why do we have 3 schemes rewarding you for doing the same thing (attacking a worm after a more or less hard rope turn)

People confuse repetitive elements with skill.
A good Allrounder should be able to master several different skills.
If we want to reward allround play we would have to flip the whole league upside down:

Add schemes you need to master unique skills in order to excell in them, like Bungeerace, JPrace, Battlerace, Darts, Intermediate

Komo is right when he says TFL requires more skill than TUS Classic.

[Sensei]

Not only that all racing schemes really do involve lot of mastering (even tho 80% ppl from this thread will find it funny) they're actually more fair than the others. And yeah, I don't mind giving explanation:

1. No wind factor - When 2 bng'ers of similar rank get into a fight, wind luck can get pretty one sided, which can affect on game outcome. It's true, whether you believe it or not! (not to mention 2 different sides of map, if not mirrored)

2. No crates luck factor - Shopper, Wxw.. Hmm Team17?!? That scheme shouldn't even be in Free league.

3. No crate positions raping - Lot's of Roper lovers suffer from said disease, from time to time. 18 yrs later, cure is yet to be found. Meanwhile, number of infected ppl growing every day. If you're starting to experience nausea and major butthurt all of a sudden, there's quite a big possibility you played a game of Roper recently.

4. No random tele - even tho great number of ppl, including me, says 'intermediate is w:a' and 'w:a is intermediate' - random teleports can be a bitch sometime.

5. No questionable stuff such as suicide/pile/turn advantage
- you'll see at least two of mentioned three tactics in 6 out of 8 TUS classic schemes.


Now your turn, hotshot classic league beyond pro players! Tell me, pls, what's that you have against schemes like:
JPR, Boom race, Golf, Big RR, Darts...

They not gonna bring you 10$ for being in first 8?

[Triad]

We need a racing league Not in TUS perhaps but once a year event like WO.

Something like:
* TTRR
* Bungee Race
* Jetpack Race
* Parachute Race
* Boom Race
* Golf
* Battlerace
* Super Sheep Race

Followed by a bo7 PO.

A person who mastered all these 8 would be considered far skilled than those mastered 8 Classic scheme.

[Tomi]

Now your turn, hotshot classic league beyond pro players! Tell me, pls, what's that you have against schemes like:
JPR, Boom race, Golf, Big RR, Darts...

They not gonna bring you 10$ for being in first 8?

JPR: first it sounded a big bullshit that it hurts our hands, but after i was trying to practice it for the cup with 8 worms on a 120 sec map, i had to accept that it is right. + too less maps

Boom race + golf: i assume that there are not really much maps either and i think these schemes would be really cool for map whoring.. you know, when you choose a map which has special parts where only you know which weapon is the most useful from which place (boom race, in a playoff..), so it could be only added with random generated maps in my opinion.

Big RR: same, map whoring and it requires quite a big monitor for some maps which have big flies and the finish can be quite often draw.

Darts: dunno

[Chelsea]

let's replace all 8 schemes in clasic league 

elite -> normal
hysteria -> aerial
BnG -> forts
team17 -> mole shoppa

ttrr -> big rr
wxw -> wfw
roper -> darts
shoppa -> holy war (with crates) 

[TheKomodo]

Triad that's a great idea a racing league

[avirex]

if anyone thought these free league schemes were fun, or a good idea... there would be more people playing them...

if you call the free league "classic league" from now on.. which is pretty much what your suggesting...

and the classic league will be called "free league" lol...

everyone will just play free league.


komo, your useless to argue with.... d1 tells you to give one reason why suicide is a good tactic other than for tele pile...

you say... well heres on reason off the top of my head, because if i have 3 worms in good places... and my starting worm is in a bad place.... i would never think to tele him up to a good place with my other 3, my mind tells me to teleport to water...

well if its such a great tactic, then do that in t17 moron.

then you wanna say shit like... "well people use kamikaze in elite, and suicide their mate in roper" lmao.... c'mon man.... as d1 said, kami is used to an attack on opponent, and generally with the weakest worm you have...  or a skunked worm....  suicides in roper are towards the end of the game, in specific situations, definitely not the starting strategy...

and when all else fails you just go with... "well, its just YOUR opinion if you think its NOT a strategy, because i THINK its a strategy, and i LOVE it, cuz im PASSIONATE about HYSTERIA"

the only reason you think its so great, is because its all you know... you, and at least half of the rest of w:a is so stubborn, and never want anything to change...   you fight any kind of change like its your job....is someone paying you for this?? now im curious...

sensei, who said there is "no cure for roper cr8 rape" ?

theres no cure, because no1 accepts change, komo is always in the threads arguing, and threatening to quit this game forever, and boycott tus is anyone even thinks about changing anything.

very mature style of debate komo.... your sitting here acting as if your just so mature, and debate like a politician, and you appreciate d1's debate, and only get hostile when ppl attack you... f@#! off.. your the worst person here for bullshit posts, and hostile behavior lol just another example of how your living in some other reality.

[lalo]

Who would kill his own worms in wxw/shopper from the very start? I know, not a skilled player. Hahaha wtf komo,  you don't even know how to play those schemes leave alone elite. I have always had to told you everything you had to do.