The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
All About TUS => TUS Discussion => Topic started by: Devilage on June 07, 2013, 11:53 PM
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HEy.
[attachment=2]
and this!
[attachment=1]
Here's a notch table for forward winds (ones blowing in the direction of an opponent). N = notch, D = distance.
Negative notches indicate that you need to turn your worm back.
quote from barman! :D
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I had to write this post, didn't we agree on that?
That's the notch table and on-screen ruler I've been using in the first two or three weeks of learning bng. It's useful but gets boring and tedious quickly, but as soon as one's skill progresses, it gets harder and harder to rely on that stuff. So while this method is good for learning bng, it has practically no use in real life situations where you simply don't have time to look up the big ass table and count dots on the monitor.
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Quote from barman
I made myself a pixel ruler. I just measured how long is 100 pixels on my monitor, wrote the distances down on a thin ribbon of paper and glued it to the bottom of the screen. The black dots mark consecutive full power no wind notches.
cheating in my eyes, what does the rest thinks?
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It's lame and it ruined BnG, but i'm afraid it's not cheating as much as it pains me to say so...
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yeah I wondered how he became so good so fast, lol
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yeah I wondered how he became so good so fast, lol
Learn numbers, learn to estimate distances, start practicing. All that was covered in the bng tutorial in dt private, wasn't it?
Don't think that a ruler is an ultimate solution, though, it gets useless quickly. Not sure if I played at least one league game with it, I was rather inactive throughout all January 2012 when I was learning bng.
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he still deserves respect for making that table hauhauha
hard work xDDDDD
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heaheahahea, sure barman not the exact shots tho. it gets useless quickly aslong as u managed to learn them by memory.
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So that's where barman got his nick from
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So that's where barman got his nick from
lmfao
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So for the record, are visual aids like that ruler below the screen against the TUS rules or not? I remember the huge debate Mab started back then, just not its conclusions.
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So for the record, are visual aids like that ruler below the screen against the TUS rules or not? I remember the huge debate Mab started back then, just not its conclusions.
And paper bags under the space and stuff, damn, this topics (like the Crazy's with the old replays, macros, keyboard mods, alias) seems to be recycled every 1 or 2 years in wa forums... I like it :D
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That's a good point actually Twy... If visual aids were not allowed, why should paper under spacebars, modding keyboards etc be allowed?
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let's ban finger roll!
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Doesn't make sense to establish a limit on spacebar/arrow/etc. sensitivity, because there's no standard kb with standard sensitivity, from the start of WA we've all been using different kbs with different amounts of responsiveness. Sensitivity of the keys seems like a parameter we should be able to tweak as much as we like, since there's never been any disagreement that it's fine for it to vary significantly from kb to kb.
In terms of visual aids though, it's not something we started with much agreement on, and it seems like most people are against them. And yes, you can't use visual aids currently. We certainly could allow them, but they ruin BnG (even further), and in other schemes allow people to write down information, use transparencies for distances, etc.
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I have that too under my monitor but it dont means that you hit 100%. Time is short and it needs a lot of practice to get masterered. And its not a cheat and its the same like using a paper for shotgun or a kamiroler vor kamikaze distance.
Its one part to master worms. Still there are 100 more. 8)
Totally legitim to use and just smart when you do it like barman.
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plz delete, my pad went crazy xd
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SPW, I thought we agreed upon that visual aid like that was not allowed. Can anyone dig out the conclusion of that topic again?
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I have no problems with barman expecting us to believe he only uses to learn and or that SPW thinks of it as a method of training.
But you're still cheats, big skilled well respected well mannered lame f@#!ing cheats.
Visual aids do your eyes job for you. What about touch aids? Or memory aids? I can see how a macro wold fit directly to those categories.
It's like learning to rape by using dolls. You're still learning to rape.
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If we were competing in real life in a big place where all people could see us playing, there would be no visual aid or anything else. It would be just you, keyboard/mouse and one plain screen.
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I'll clarifiy some more things. The monitor pic and notch table is 17 or so months old. I stopped using this ruler quickly. One can't simply rely on such aids as the skill level progresses. There are methods to estimate distances in game, which are on par with using a strip of paper, reliability-wise. A couple of wormers saw me playing in September, most notably Peja, whom I taught some of my methods of playing bng when he stayed in my house. There were no visual aids involved. In order to prove my point further, good luck finding any notched shots in any bng game I've played this year. If anyone thinks it's possible to count dots on the monitor and look up huge-ass tables before every shot, especially in fast-paced situations, I can quickly tell they have insufficient experience to speak on that matter.
If all it takes to become good in bng is having some paper glued to the monitor and some sheets of table-filled paper on your desk, why aren't there tens of wormers able to reach a very high level of playing as quickly as I did? I can only recall people like Impo and Easy getting very good in bng within a few weeks and I'm supposing they used the same learning method as myself for 3s, 4s and 5s LG grenades, but they didn't seem to move on any further than that. Many people don't understand that it takes a huge lot of effort to learn to notch. All the notching tables (and a lot of additional info) have been available in dt private for ages, yet the only dt member who can notch very well is Mablak, plus Avirex and Free on a basic level. It's not like one comes up with a way to estimate distances and can throw super accurate grenades right away. But it sure is easier to sit in front of your PC and throw cheating accusations at everyone who decides to put a lot of time and effort in order to get better at this game.
If anyone finds this paper method cheating/lame/offensive etc., I apologize for having used it during my early days of bng'ing. But I have nothing to apologize for right now. If someone finds a way to prove that I'm not using a screen ruler nowadays, I will do it ;)
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Holy shit, you people still take stuff way too seriously. :D
Still this topic? Really? Soon comes the "ban notching in bng" topic, then the "hey what about hysteria then?" topic, oh god. :D
Who cares? Although, for the record, that's a big ass job you did there barman, my hats are off, that is a level of commitment that makes you deserve your place on the ladders. I was experimenting with something similar, I was trying to work out a formula based on the full power shots about the winds, so if the distance is around 1.3 then what angle would that be with a 1 power wind, etc. Kind of came close, but nothing exact like you did, huge respect for that!
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... paper for shotgun or a kamiroler vor kamikaze distance...
Its one part to master worms. Still there are 100 more.
Since when paper is part of the worms? It feels silly already to use screen distance for notches, im not even gonna think about having 30 papers on your desk for a PC game
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is there dots each 100 pixels? because if so then its not perfect enough since every next notch have smaller length.
Here's perfect notch map by me. Top numbers show pixel distance, and the down numbers shows amount of notches
If you want to make thing like barman got you have to start game on this map and redraw this map into paper, but keep in mind you gotta use the same resolution all the time after that
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i waited your post impo :DD but...
but keep in mind you gotta use the same resolution all the time after that
lol! xd
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if you draw it for 1920 pixels it wont work with 1680. Also if you change your display you gotta make another bar except the case both monitor have the same size of the screen
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i have 1366 :(
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I don't really think you can call this cheating, barman haven't modified the game engine, nor used any scripts that simulate physical activity (key pressing). Everyone uses some kind of visual aid in bng, that's common sense. You have to be able to measure distances to something. To your screen size for example, map objects and whatnot.. Of course, if TUS would be a professional league, there could be professional events where every player would play on same setups, but it isn't.
It's simply meaningless to ban visual aids, because it's not possible to monitor them.
I myself try to play bng with the least visual aids, because I like to think of that as a more noble way of playing it, but I don't have ambitions in the league. If I had, I'd probably do something similar like barman (and others, of course, he's not the only one). Or maybe not, because I'm a lazy ass.. :)
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what this game turned into... sadness.
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leroy, its what the game has always been...
bng has been hijacked by notching since forever... you think barman if the first person to use an alternative method to determine distances other then guessing, and memory?
the only thing that bothers me is, in mablaks thread asking if visual aids should be legal, no one really said much... but now that barmans outed for it, everyone is all "oo i do that too" *high five*
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but now that barmans outed for it, everyone is all "oo i do that too" *high five*
I posted this not because of barman but because of my inactivity, if I still would keep trying to win classic league I could rather post how sad everything is but now I dont really care much
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It's simply meaningless to ban visual aids, because it's not possible to monitor them.
I stopped using visual aids when they became illegal at tus.
But ye, for most people its probably meaningless, thats true...
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Is that why you stopped playing so much Classic TuS? ;)
j/k
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the only thing that bothers me is, in mablaks thread asking if visual aids should be legal, no one really said much... but now that barmans outed for it, everyone is all "oo i do that too" *high five*
well, SPW per instance was against it I recall. Now he's okay with it because he probably does it.
As with mostly anyone, once in the boat you vote for the captain.
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Everyone uses some kind of visual aid in bng, that's common sense. You have to be able to measure distances to something.
I don't, and I can't assume that everyone else does as well. It's a game, not going to treat it like a science.
leroy, its what the game has always been...
Thats not even close to being true avi. The best bng players of early WA didn't notch, the way in which geniusma, psydome, MPH, or dw33b aimed would have made that impossible.
the only thing that bothers me is, in mablaks thread asking if visual aids should be legal, no one really said much... but now that barmans outed for it, everyone is all "oo i do that too" *high five*
I agree, jump on the cheatwagon, people. There is plenty of room. Pretty sure this thread will turn into people like SPW, prank, and impo saying, "Err, the ruler taped to my screen, yeah, I don't use it for league games. Yeah, thats the ticket!"
I hate to continue cock riding Komo after praising him in the other thread for his warming skills, but I love that the best bng player beat all of your notching monkey asses again and again. Poetic justice.
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Bar's argument doesn't really hold water, i.e. that it's more efficient not to use aids. You don't need a cumbersome table to look at, you can just print usable shots and their notches right below the distances themselves. Wherever the worm is, you would be able to instantly see all the shots that could hit. You do of course still need other BnG skills, but it's a definite advantage, especially if you happened to forget some notch distances.
I'm with avi, the only thing that bothers me is that people like SPW know about the no visual aids rule, but aren't arguing to reverse it when they use aids themselves.
The only way I see to actually save BnG, if people really want to save it, is to mandate webcam streaming, at least for playoff games. I mean you can get some cheap ones for 10-20 bucks, it would probably take like 2 hours of effort for most people. The question is if people care enough, I would be willing to try it.
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Everyone uses some kind of visual aid in bng, that's common sense. You have to be able to measure distances to something.
I don't, and I can't assume that everyone else does as well. It's a game, not going to treat it like a science.
Yes, you do, you won't be able to improve otherwise. Of course it's not necessarily a ruler taped to the screen, but oncounsciously remembering object sizes, your screen size, maybe the buttons, or anything you don't even realize. It's psychology, don't know if you look at that as science, or not..
But okay, you have a point that it's not the same as intentionally playing/practicing with direct tools.
The question is: how do you plan to check if someone's using them? And more importantly, how would you deal with the difference between those who already learned the perfect distances by that way and those who don't? barman used to play in a2b (or a2b tourneys at least), he rocked without notching as well.
I'm just saying this is something that's out (and that was in the game physics since ever - correct me if I'm wrong here) and you can't undo it.
And for the record, I'm not using any tools, stop saying that. I'd be against (direct) visual aids too, if there would be sense in it. But I find equal chances more important, since we're talking about an open league here. I can imagine a closed league tho, where manner and ethics are in focus instead of rules, but that's not TUS.
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walrus: ok walrus, i don't mean notching has been around since the start of w:a.. cmon man.. lol don't take it so literal..
leroy said "so this is what w:a has come to" but it *almost* always has been.. just lately notching has been more exposed, and popular, but notching has been around long before wwp was released, however long ago that was.. and i can not speak for all the names you mentioned but I'm pretty sure psydome knew how to notch... the only difference back then was people only notched 3s and 4s really.. and maybe some other shots, but barman really took it to another level... I'm not saying he was the first to do this.. but he really turned bng inside out with his notching table lol.. so I'm not sure if you thing notching is new walrus... but its not.. its been around longer then most of the wormers in this community...
prankster, that's the most asinine thing i have ever heard, comparing knowing the widths of terrains, etc to having a pixel ruler.. c'mon man...
anyway, its honestly safe to say that up until recently notching has been w:a's best kept secret,.and as cheesy as that is to say.. i think its true..
and being that there is no way to really know if anyone is using aids, we should just legalize the aids, to make it a level playing field.. because tbh i don't believe for a second that barman stopped using the aids, and after this thread its obvious he's not the only one.
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I just got to the conclusion that it's not the same, avi.
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The only way I see to actually save BnG, if people really want to save it, is to mandate webcam streaming, at least for playoff games. I mean you can get some cheap ones for 10-20 bucks, it would probably take like 2 hours of effort for most people. The question is if people care enough, I would be willing to try it.
unfortunetly I have a habit to play playoffs nude :|
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walrus: ok walrus, i don't mean notching has been around since the start of w:a.. cmon man.. lol don't take it so literal..
i didn't say anything about the start of wa, you just have to let me know when to start guessing and you stop me when you get to how long you actually meant.
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Now I can see why noobs own in bng nowdays, exact shit happens with new roperacers, I'm sure there is an important amount of players cheating, as always monkeyisland seems to sit and watch, maybe he should stop banning ppl because insulting and start investigating a bit, ah wait that sounds stupid, it's not his job lol, well, some1 teach me nothing D;
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walrus... you made it seem in your post as if notching is a newer thing... its been around for over 10 years i would say... is that close enough to forever?? im just letting you know (if you didn't know already) and others, notching is nothing new.
devilage... what barman is doing is only cheating if we consider it as cheating... Mablak opened a discussion about this very thing months ago, and no one admitted to using visual aids then, but now all of a sudden everyone is coming out of the wood works saying they have been, and continue to use such visual aids (just not as extensive as barmans)
i think in order to even the playing field, we should as a community accept any visual aids, being there is no way to stop it/determine if someone is actually using them... and personally i dont see really anything wrong with having notes, if you want to be that competitive in this game to the point you take notes, and refer to them in games, you should be able to.... but thats something we all need to agree on, so everyone has equal opportunity and advantage.
also dev, if you have not noticed your asshole attitude gets you nowhere... not in clans, not in complaint forums, and not here. if you think someone is cheating in roperace why dont you f@#!ing investigate? what in the hell makes you think that its MonkeyIslands job to do such things??? is it not enough he spent hours and hours, days and days, months and months making this site? and updating this site, and continues to maintain it day after day for our enjoyment... not only has he invested his time, but im sure he has invested money in this massive project we call TUS... if you dont think he is doing enough, maybe you should donate a large amount of money to him, to make up for his time, maybe then he can spend more time here trying to please your arrogant ass. *rant over*
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Thank f@#! there are schemes other than bng
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prankster and some others are right. You cant forbid visual aids because you cant measure it, there is no proof. Like prankster wrote almost every people using some visual help, a little help like an object which gives you a hand to get about the right angle or power or a big one when creating some roler etc.
You cant control a full community and I would never trust all. Visual aids is just a part of almost every game, not only worms.
Thank f@#! there are schemes other than bng
Its not only bng, you can use it for t17, elite, hyst, inter etc.
Intermediate lovers using visual aids or kind of notching too, for example counting the right position when drop a dynamite on opponents worm. This is also a form of notching and Im sure some people did a table which shows the angle of each position.
We can continue this forever and it wont come to an end.
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This,
i think in order to even the playing field, we should as a community accept any visual aids, being there is no way to stop it/determine if someone is actually using them... and personally i dont see really anything wrong with having notes, if you want to be that competitive in this game to the point you take notes, and refer to them in games, you should be able to.... but thats something we all need to agree on, so everyone has equal opportunity and advantage.
and this:
also dev, if you have not noticed your asshole attitude gets you nowhere... not in clans, not in complaint forums, and not here. if you think someone is cheating in roperace why dont you f@#!ing investigate? what in the hell makes you think that its MonkeyIslands job to do such things??? is it not enough he spent hours and hours, days and days, months and months making this site? and updating this site, and continues to maintain it day after day for our enjoyment... not only has he invested his time, but im sure he has invested money in this massive project we call TUS... if you dont think he is doing enough, maybe you should donate a large amount of money to him, to make up for his time, maybe then he can spend more time here trying to please your arrogant ass. *rant over*
I agree with avi, we should allow visual aids. It's the only way to have a game with equal chances for everyone. I don't like Mablak's idea of a webcamstream of playoffs to prove you're not using visual aid, it's just too much fuzz. We have to clearly state that it's allowed, and move on. Anyhow, this thread has to come something good out from. We have to get a conclusion unlike last time, where the thread kinda died out it nothing. I think a poll where people vote Yes or No for allowing visual aid is the best solution.
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Yeah allow visual aids and then open The Ultimate Shop for transparent sheets for different scrreens and actions. Money will go on promoting a Paper and Worms game to the newcomers.
Oh by the way, Devilage, didnt you promise to be the cheater of the yar? (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-complaints/%28solved%29-kor%60-clan-albtraum-devilage-13954/msg111375/#msg111375) Heres a proof video http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/webdesign-pl-d2041dc5dbb06f9fa34778ad1c2f4472.html
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yep, I agree with crazy. But no poll needed since it is a logical rule.
Mablaks idea is good but it will never work with all playoff players. Too much fuzz so I agree to crazy again.
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What makes this really lame is the fact that barman knew that he's cheating.
BAN VISUAL AIDS. BAN MODDED SPACES. BAN FR.
OG ROPING SINCE 99!
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Why rule out the webcam idea? I don't think there's as much hassle in setting up streaming live, compared to capturing directly from the game. It would take a unified effort but it would result in a more skill-based league. I would pledge to try it.
Also, I don't consider it a logical rule to allow notes, aids, transparencies, paper for straight shots, etc., just because they can't be enforced (except live or with a cam). Macros can't be enforced either, but it's better to disallow them.
How pathetic does the league look to a newcomer, when they see you have to print off distances in order to really play one of the schemes?
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How pathetic does the league look to a newcomer, when they see you have to print off distances in order to really play one of the schemes?
Pretty much the same goes for Poker players and hand probability calculators or so. I'm sure there are such programs and players use it (or use it till a particular point when they memorize it/caclutate by themselfes) for online tournamets.
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Mablak, people won't do the webcam. It's too much hassle. People won't feel comfortable being watched. (Some may need time before to put on make up), and at the end, many of us have slow connections. It just won't work for us.
The question is can you draw a line with visual aids? I can't see anything good come out of this. As I said earlier, if I had the money to investigate and start off real life worms championship, do you think we would really allow visual aids? No, just a simple screen/equipment.
Narrator: ok it's Barman's turn now. He pulls out his calculator and his notch cheat sheet. He is calculating, calculating, 5 seconds for the turn to end. Yea he starts to notch now, 4, 3, 2, 1 DAMN! he ran out of time... That was so existing. Komo's turn now. Since his previous turn, his thumb is still left on the screen so that he remembers his last angle ...
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there's 2 conclusions:
a) it's cheap. not illegal, but cheap.
b) it virtually can't be successfully persecuted and stopped
on the basis of a and b I'd like to ask only one thing:
can those who use it stop using excuses to appear to be in the moral right of things? You guys are cheats, but you're safe so there's no need to go all defensive. Just give in to the fact and stop making up crazy arguments on how it it's moral because it can't be stopped? you're sounding like f@#!ing Holland.
and since I can't leave without an analogy it's like learning to count cards with notes, a calculator and the help of a professional. You're just learning right? And whilst you enter the casino without any of the above the skill is still banned. I'm not comparing, I'm just eliminating excuses, mainly those that barman uses.
because no one doubts games should be rich in strategies and allow users to come up with different abilities and learning processes, but there's one thing that's more important than all that, and it's sportsmanship, and one of the things sportsmanship covers is fair competition, you're gaining and advantage that defeats the purpose of the game, in BnG, it should be about feeling and whilst winning is more important than anything in a league game, and you're winning without breaking the rules you're still being bad sportsmanlike. Few of you, pretty pretty bad actually.
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f@#! I love Ryan. He's like Dub without the douche.
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No matter how much you, me, or anyone is against them, in a game like W:A, with perfectly reconstructable situations and pixel perfection, making visual aids is a logical step.
However, it's a good thing to have public opinion against visual aids, but if we outright ban them, without an efficient monitoring system, we will only cause unequal chances, because some people will abide the rule, and some simply just won't and will never be caught.
The webcam streaming you recommend, Mablak, only keeps players from using visual aids in certain games..
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It feels nice pulling off a good shot with a zook or a nade using instinct and judgement. It may not happen as often as if I used visual aids or notching but I'm pretty sure it's a more satisfying experience. Must be a bit boring after a while knowing that your shot will be accurate because you've measured it using any of these techniques.
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your penis need to spent more time inside holes ( of female or male, this is just your choice )
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Yes aids can't be monitored, but there are other things we disallow despite being unable to monitor. If you want to say aids are a logical step, then your argument equally applies to any kind of macro, or anything you can get away with.
I feel like this completely ruins BnG, there's no need for memory at all if you can just see a list of shots and their notches underneath the opponent worm, I would rather axe the scheme than allow something so mindless.
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Komo's turn now. Since his previous turn, his thumb is still left on the screen so that he remembers his last angle ...
I was really gonna stay out of this one but you had to go and mention my name didn't you?
As I explained before, most of my shots would hit 1st turn anyway, so I rarely even used my thumb, it's something I started doing because I minimise alot just to save time from time to time when I missed a shot.
Anyway, it's part of my body, so I can use it if I want, at least I don't mod my keyboard or use tables and graphs or macros or even prit stick tubes to measure distances for kamikaze lol...
Some people value winning as easy as possible over the passion/excitement & fun of learning naturally with average equipment.
Personally speaking, who gives a f@#!, this game is by far too f@#!ed up to save now anyway.
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lol dude, even people who don't like you, admit your BnG skills. That was just a funny demonstration to show how any "aid" would look like in real world competition.
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Personally speaking, who gives a f@#!, this game is by far too f@#!ed up to save now anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes)
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I find no fun in BnG when notching :'( Almost always rely on intuition stuff
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imho, if you get THAT competitive, then you have a problem.
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lol dude, even people who don't like you, admit your BnG skills. That was just a funny demonstration to show how any "aid" would look like in real world competition.
Yeah, sorry, just seems you are putting me in the same boat as the other stuff talked about in this thread lol...
And Rok, sorry, I was referring to just BnG, it's past help, it's completely f@#!ed, all the fun and innocence has been sucked dry, it can only be enjoyed in the company of people you can trust I guess.
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nvm- originally said lets remove bng from classic, but i dont truly believe that...
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its just a shame how many people blame barman for something he doesnt even do lol. he has no marks on his monitor, he doesnt have a list of notches on his desk, he doesnt even use a ruler for kamikaze like many others do.
he is guilty putting a f@#!ing huge effort into understanding the mechanics of this game though. thats something which 99% of our community will never do on such a level. people should appreciate that (and i know many do), but some are just whiny jealous fools who are too lazy showing the same effort.
about the visual aid topic itself: its just a big drama with no sense. you cant prove it but its forbidden. why should we allow it? to take away the guilty conscience of people using it although they know its against the rules? if people want to abuse it noone can do anything against it, why do we even discuss? so lets move on and close this topic because it is nothing more than a desperate try to get attention from someone who cant stand the fact he will never reach barmans level. this whole topic was created because a person from chile found out its better for his ego to accuse a better player to use cheats than realizing he is just too lazy/dumb to reach this level.
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I didn't know visual aids were banned, thought everyone used them who wanted to learn notching.
Anyway, had a long conversation with KRD, and got to the conclusion that it's better to have a rule against them than not. Probably there will still be players who use aids to win some points, but their motivation would hopefully end soon after reachig their goal (playing the system to get points), so they would cause less damage to the game/community than if aids were allowed and legal.
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Removing BnG from classic may ease this stuff.
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i really wonder where all these bad bad unfair notchers hide lol. go look the leaguestats take the last 3 seasons and watch the bng top 10. you almost cant find them. since anubis tutorial it is basicly public, still i can only recall 1 player who really went into it and he doesnt even playing leagues atm. some guys make it sound like they get notched to death every day they start wa. im quite active since some years and the only one ever notched the shit out of me was barman. and tbh somehow it was f@#!ing cool. its f@#!ing 2013, we play an over 10 years old artillery based game. when i play competetive against the best players around i expect to get my ass kicked. in fact its a shame theres only a handful people who are able to hit you anywhere they want considering the age of the game. i cant care less about how people try to master a scheme. and once again everything is public, still theres no huge wave of players suddenly notching out of nothing (although komo believes it lol) and the reason is simple. it just takes effort to master it, ask avirex. he is oldschool as f@#!, quite a decent bng player when he wants to, and he has the perfect guide in dt forums. he already put some time into it, but do you see him owning every game? i just can laugh about people suggesting to remove the most classic scheme from classic league because some people think others have an unfair advantage by using a technique everyone is free to learn.
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the most classic scheme
wut
because some people think others have an unfair advantage by using a technique everyone is free to learn.
also (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting) free (https://www.google.es/#output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=free+keyboard+macro&oq=free+keyboard+macro&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.314.2343.0.2485.19.14.0.4.4.1.374.2644.0j4j4j3.11.0...0.0...1c.1.16.psy-ab.q1KBjMHT_Uc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47534661,d.ZWU&fp=dca0abb25f718e14&biw=1280&bih=597)
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the most classic scheme
wut
oh please ropa try to tell me worms is not artillery based, and please try to tell me bng is not pure artillery.
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oh please ropa try to tell me worms is not artillery based, and please try to tell me bng is not pure artillery.
Artillery mode is a gimmick put in by an on/off option that wasn't even present in Worms 1.
In addition to that, the classic* Bng scheme is nothing like current Bng.
Knowing all that, claiming Bng is the most classic of shcemes is questionable, hence my questioning.
*unanchored bounce'n'toss fest. Those things started to be seen as cheap and the scheme quickly molded into what we have today; ironically favoring a new type of cheaps.
edit: I wonder how the fans of papers would feel if the game incorporated a gunbound-like angle&ruler type of measuring mechanism that makes the aiming trivial. They should feel totally democratic about it.
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i never talked about the artillery mode, i talked about the origin of the worms series which goes back to artillery developed by Mike Forman in the year 1976. and now guess which scheme of the current tus classic league comes close to this game.
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peja, there are alot of players who notch/know distances but simple shots like 4s FP and 5s lg, low winds, and that's it.
Almost every shot that is a direct hit is notchable, LG zooks, floorbanks, trapshots, transfers, banks(roughly), this is the only difference between barman and the rest, at least barman bothered to learn the cool shots.
As I have said before, I learned how to notch 4s nades from m3ntal when I 1st met him, I learned everything else myself without any visual aids whatsoever, all my notches were just roughly guessed by which I mean I never actually knew exactly what pixel a grenade would bounce, apparently, barman did, no one can notch the trick shots I used to do, only person i've seen at my level for trick shots is lacoste, but ever since I left b2b, I stopped playing trick BnG's, to be quite honest that's the worst experience for me ever on WA, I really miss b2b's Thursday night Tournaments n stuff...
1st Tournament I entered I missed 3 shots the entire Tournament, I remember beating franz in 5 shots and he couldn't believe it, shortly after KRD convinced me notching was lame, I stopped notching in BnGs ever since, I started notching again last year against other notchers and players who play "lame" but I still to this day mirror my opponents fairness in BnG, I discuss notching with barman during BnG's, but not because we do it, just because we understand each others intentions in this way...
My only concern with notching, is not everyone wants to learn it, if everyone wanted to learn it, I would be totally fine with it, I would encourage it, and go out my way to provide an easy to read tuturial, but it's a ridiculous advantage over anyone who plays fair and instinctual, especially at the level myself/barman/mablak/darKz/anubis could do it, no one has a chance to beat us, it's just really really unfair...
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BnG is pure artillery, but artillery is not the privilege of BnG.
Also no matter how much those notchers are, because (a): we're talking about the visual aids; (b): one (counter)example is perfectly enough for a need of a rule.
This topic isn't against barman, Peja (despite how much Devilage wanted that). I admire the effort he put into studying distances and notches and whatnot. I, on the other hand, have no idea if he used his aids in league games, but I don't care either. Hey, a preventive rule is even better!
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well komo i dont know why you call it unfair, since everyone has access to it. i just talk about the definition of fairness here.its not like in blackjack (hi ropa) where the player gets advantage with cardcounting against the bank. everyone can learn it = everyone has same options. where is the unfair advantage?
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well komo i dont know why you call it unfair, since everyone has access to it. i just talk about the definition of fairness here.its not like in blackjack (hi ropa) where the player gets advantage with cardcounting against the bank. everyone can learn it = everyone has same options. where is the unfair advantage?
Your only argument (or the only one I'm reading) is that everyone has access to it so it's fair. Everyone can learn card counting too, plenty of free methods and guides on the internet. And there's no difference between an advantage towards a bank, a league, a player or a monkey, it's still an advantage that goes against the spirit* of the scheme.
*whilst this might be a subjective term I'm pretty sure anyone can buy into the idea that Bng isn't supposed to be played with markers. And if you don't buy into the idea then at least be coherent in the rules, for instance: most people agree that abusing 4sec shots, repeating shots and not reaming are all considered cheap. You can't ignore the principle of why these rules exist, or what they do: they prevent any shot that is not done exclusively by instinct. Having markers, in paper or in your head is a legal loop hole, a way around this rule. This is why I originally labeled them as legal cheats.
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So using an external aid for bng goes against the spirit of the scheme, but using keychange for multiple spaces and modding your keyboard doesn't?
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dev: there is nothing questionable about any other schemes, barman will own you.
ropa: you cant compare card counting to notching... notching is not, and should not be illegal, its a mechanic of the game.. do you think its illegal to learn exactly where to drop a mine/dyno to know exactly where and how far the worm will fly? its the same principle... as far as keeping notes, if that was his method of learning it, then so be it... as long as he does not use it in league games, then its ok (who knows if he uses it or not during league games... i question that)
komo: you never...ever... ever ever ever ever, miss an opportunity to tell us how great you are, do you??? please, tell us more.
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stoker!
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I am on topic avi - you are not, so shutup.
peja, if you can't understand why it isn't fair after everything been said so far, you never will understand, sorry.
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ropa: you cant compare card counting to notching... notching is not, and should not be illegal, its a mechanic of the game.. do you think its illegal to learn exactly where to drop a mine/dyno to know exactly where and how far the worm will fly? its the same principle... as far as keeping notes, if that was his method of learning it, then so be it... as long as he does not use it in league games, then its ok (who knows if he uses it or not during league games... i question that)
Avi makes a compelling point here, starting to change my mind actually, but lets consider the more important part here, about why WA is like cards. Card counting IS legal, thats why people who count cards aren't arrested. Their winnings can be confiscated though and they are banned from casinos. Cheaters who use aids to try and beat the slot machines and throw loaded dice at the craps table are arrested, for the record. So, if we are truly comparing TUS to a casino (why the f@#!) the house would decide if it is allowed or not. The players don't have a say. So MI and the dream team are in charge.
And just for shits and giggles:
Pretty much the same goes for Poker players and hand probability calculators or so. I'm sure there are such programs and players use it (or use it till a particular point when they memorize it/caclutate by themselfes) for online tournamets.
Programs are useless for card probabilities, counting the number of cards left in the deck that can help you win is so impossibly easy only someone simple minded would need a calculator. The only thing a probability calculator could teach someone is basic math and how to do division, lol.
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komo why do you say its unfair? you learned to notch, and all though you will never admit it, you still do, you just know that notches by heartbecause you have played so much bng...
and even if you don't admit it.. lets just go ahead and say you don't, and never do notch.. your knowledge of notching in the past has a direct link to your ability and skill now.. buti have a feeling you won't admit that either....
anyone that wants to learn to notch has all the information needed to do so.. but its not easy, it sill takes practice, and its still not one hundred percent after that... i think notching is a skill.. having a cheat sheet at your desk for each notch how ever is not.
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Yeah, even when getting rid of all visual aids and just aiming by feel you will always know that this certain angle is half the screen, this is 1/3 of a screen etc. That's the nature of the human and you can't even do anything against it, it would be illogical to tell yourself to forget it, and it would not work either. Anyone that notched is brand marked by it until the end of the day lol. It works subconscious so there's no way around it.
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Lol avi, you are so pathetic it's hilarious, you just jealous because you are an average player at every scheme ever invented, you don't excel at anything in life.
Only shots I learned how to notch 1st are 4s and 5s LG, and low zook winds, I learned everything else by instinct, and THEN I wanted to see if it was possible to notch them, so I did, I found it interesting.
And just goes to show you don't pay attention, I just said in my previous post, I started notching again last year against other notchers & lame players, jeez, learn to f@#!in read numbnuts.
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being an average usa boy must be really boring, I would cry and kill myself :(
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Cover yourself guys, avirex vs komo is bout to ruin another thread.
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about why WA is like cards.
the only reason I used said comparison (and I know you're aware but just to clarify) is because it's the same f@#!ing thing on all levels.
Anyone can learn it providing will or drive coupled with effort and/or talent.
You're not breaking any game rules.
It's still banned (mostly) from being used because it breaks the practical even ground of competition. Not the absolute one mind. The latter would argument that because anyone can learn it it's ok. Which is exactly the only argument I'm hearing people use.
Now, in order to get your head around this line of thought you need to leave absolute logic aside. It might be logical to think it's fair and not against the game's spirit because anyone can learn it and yet if everyone could card count black jack would cease to exist. If everyone could notch, Bng would be destroyed and changed into what MI described earlier.
My only argument is that whilst absolutist conclusions are okay more important is the product and that's what must prevail; you have to be able to see the whole picture in order to protect it.
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being an average usa boy must be really boring, I would cry and kill myself :(
But i heard the winter at russia is depressing too :(
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ok ropa.. i do see your point....
but you say "if everyone can notch" as if its easy to learn/master.
its kind of like saying if everyone learns to ttrr like statik, this scheme is going to be ruined.... i think its gonna be a while b4 everyone is on that level no?
komo: where did that even come from? i just find it funny you never miss a chance to tell us how great you are... and "if thats your opinion, your are entitled to your opinion" ;) but, maybe i dont excel to your standards, the greatest worms player ever! but i have excelled to my own... i been on this game for many years ,im 27 years old, do you think i care if im the best?? suck my rope!
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avirex, notching IS easy to learn, it's VERY easy, it's just a matter of if the person finds it interesting enough or not.
It is no harder to learn than learning the 2 times table for the 1st time, even easier doing it barmans way with visual aids.
It isn't "too hard to learn" it's more likely that good honest people think it's f@#!ING LAME ! End of story.
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in the last page of posting there was
avirex, komo, thewalrus, devilage, dub-c, peja, nino, ropa, statik, anubis...
now thats just the last 10 posters... do any of these strike you as good honest people??
komo, i dont mean to learn where a 4sec nade is going to land is impossible or hard.. big deal if ppl will learn to throw 3's and 4's i think it will increase the skill level of bng, maybe then we wont be playing f@#!in 1 hour clan games, until im ready to slit my wrist...
what im trying to say is notching is hard to master, and especially at barmans level, what he did in a short period of time was impressive, i dont care what you say.. i dont think theres many people that can do that...
and notching has been available for a while, and many people that seemed interested in it, yet i dont see any rising notching stars... i guess thats because this community is formed amd molded around such model citizens, right?
anyway, please i dont want to argue with you komo, there is never a conclusion... just back and forth bicker... i g2g to work.. WHERE I EXCEL AT SOMETHING !! ;p
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avi, people aren't going to learn something they think is lame are they? Added to the fact most of this community are lazy as hell.
It isn't because barman is special, it's because he has that special gift in life, the passion and the drive to perfect things, and it just happens notching BnG was interesting to him.
The same way Anubis raped Roping with his modding etc...
Very few people in life have this kind of talent/curse.
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Very few people in life have this kind of talent/curse.
many do, it just manifests more often in things other than gaming communities.
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Very few people in life have this kind of talent/curse.
many do, it just manifests more often in things other than gaming communities.
I'm not even sure about that. If you think about it, among a gamer community you get almost instant feedback about your development and in many (if not most) cases the difficulty/complexity ratio is lower in computer games than in real life activities, so you get the flow faster and that's essential to get hooked on something. Well of course these are only assumptions (there might be studies about it tho) and offtopic anyway, these arguments are only making the main subject fade away in technicalities, about which almost everyone (and that includes Komo, ropa and avirex) is on the same view: visual aids should not be allowed, am I wrong?
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So, are ppl gonna give all the tips? u know the shit u use with papers
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Very few people in life have this kind of talent/curse.
many do, it just manifests more often in things other than gaming communities.
The percentage of what I am talking about in all humans combined, is very, very small, but I see what you might mean by "many do", there are many, but compared to the overall number of humans alive, it's small.
Besides, I am talking about people who become "the game changer", people who don't just excel to the top level, I am talking about people who become the best, and better, who raise the bar, people who blow other peoples minds, completely.
Personally i'd say Anubis was that guy for Warmer, Mablak was that guy for TTRR, I was that guy for BnG, and Volcom was that guy for Pro Roper.
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Very few people in life have this kind of talent/curse.
many do, it just manifests more often in things other than gaming communities.
The percentage of what I am talking about in all humans combined, is very, very small, but I see what you might mean by "many do", there are many, but compared to the overall number of humans alive, it's small.
Besides, I am talking about people who become "the game changer", people who don't just excel to the top level, I am talking about people who become the best, and better, who raise the bar, people who blow other peoples minds, completely.
Personally i'd say Anubis was that guy for Warmer, Mablak was that guy for TTRR, I was that guy for BnG, and Volcom was that guy for Pro Roper.
You spoke how easy it was to learn to notch. You then speak of the drive to master it. To finish, you conclude that only chosen humans would have the will and technique to through with all that.
Do an exercise of imagination, imagine Bng was a well paid work with infinite openings, how many notchers would we have in the world by now then? What other works would it compare to? MD? Mathematician? Construction builder? Soccer player? Engineer?
Really think only a chosen few would have the time/skill to learn to notch?
I'm in complete disagreement and hope this text helped you learn how to apply perspective.
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Imagine asians would play wa instead of Starcraft, we all would be average...
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ropa, it is very easy to learn how to notch, I wasn't speaking about the drive to master notching, I am speaking about the drive and passion to achieve what I achieved with BnG, instinctual shots, competitive League BnG, trick shots, accuracy/consistency etc, and knowing how to notch is a tiny, tiny part of that, what Mablak achieved with TTRR, what Anubis achieved with Warmers and what Volcom achieved with Pro Ropers can also be considered the same thing in my eyes.
Notching has nothing to do with what I achieved with BnG, your text only helped me to understand you jump to conclusions too fast lol.
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ropa, it is very easy to learn how to notch, I wasn't speaking about the drive to master notching, I am speaking about the drive and passion to achieve what I achieved with BnG, instinctual shots, competitive League BnG, trick shots, accuracy/consistency etc, and knowing how to notch is a tiny, tiny part of that, what Mablak achieved with TTRR, what Anubis achieved with Warmers and what Volcom achieved with Pro Ropers can also be considered the same thing in my eyes.
Notching has nothing to do with what I achieved with BnG, your text only helped me to understand you jump to conclusions too fast lol.
and yet you're saying that it's a rare skill to have. I'm only answering that if there were enough people dedicated 8 hours a day that skill you call unique would be much more ordinary than you're making it sound. And the only reason is rare is because Worms is a hobby and people have responsibilities. Would it be the other way around, Anubises, Mablaks and Komodos would be your every day meal. Your best skill is time and dedication. People with dedication are everywhere, with time, not so much, hence why I asked you to imagine worms was a paid job, in order to add perspective to your hyperbole and realize you're just oversimplifying the world in order to have a say in it.
Please do not suddenly change your whole argument, wording and manifest you're talking about something else and that I just simply don't understand what you mean.
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ropa, our best skills are not just time and dedication, many people have put MORE time into Warmers than Anubis, more time into TTRR than Mablak, more time into Ropers than Volcom, I can't say the same for BnG though, I doubt it at least.
Although we are a thing of the past, I doubt you will ever see anyone achieve what we achieved, it's not just time and dedication, but also burning passion, a natural bond, confidence, and "just knowing" the right thing to do at the right time... Probably more things I ain't thinking of really...
Even if this were a paid job, I believe we would still stand out, we would have still raised the bar, remember, thousands of people have played this game, and these schemes since the beginning, and what, only 1 of each have reached that level, are you trying to tell me that isn't special?
There are players close to us, but we were unique, no one can rightly & truly deny that, WA is limited in what it can do, I believe we achieved the pinnacle of what is possible in these schemes for Humans to achieve, I also believe, had it been more complicated, more possibilities, we would have achieved those also.
Everything that happens on planet Earth, can be described in the way you are trying to describe it, take all professions, sports, jobs, talents, hobbies, absolutely f@#!ing everything !
There are beginners, average, very good, top players, then the ridiculously elite, most things on Earth the ridiculously elite there are only a few at a time, as things advance, there comes the next generation, who take over.
If WA was extremely popular, say, few million players playing actively, I still think we would be on top, however I do reckon there would be some others like us, but just a few, and there would still only 1 or 2 maybe 3 guys dominating each scheme at the very highest level.
It's my opinion at least.
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Lol, you were right, avi, sorry, I thought this topic was about visual aids, but nevermind..
The only thing I'm curious now is barman.
It isn't because barman is special, it's because he has that special gift in life, the passion and the drive to perfect things
[...]
Very few people in life have this kind of talent/curse.
barman has a special talent/curse that very few people do, yet he's not special. I wonder what does this mean.
For the record, I'm not bringing this up just to open another argument, just trying to get clear what Komo thinks about the visual aid dimension of this topic through the way of what he thinks about barman.
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Prank, I see it as a "list of requirements" in a way.
For me someone special would be like, double jointed people who can flex their bodies in very useful ways, the ability to jump higher than any other human being, having fists that can punch through brick walls, people with an eidetic memory, etc, real life x-men lol !
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im pretty certain this topic is about how great komo is... anyone that wants to challenge that and tell me im wrong, ill show you at least 5 quote of komo talking about.
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It's actually a topic of how average you are avi :D
I am using my experience as example, I care about this shit and will use my success, and other peoples success to explain things, when needed, if you can't handle that, boo-f@#!ing-hoo Mr Drama Queen ! ;D
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I'm still not sure what do you add to the topic, Komo..
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Nothing less than this whole thread adds to the world Prank.
The last few posts have went off topic, thanks to avi and ropa, but my actual point here is that notching is lame & very easy to learn, visual aids should be illegal, even if only some people follow that rule, I dread to imagine how many people have actually taped this bar barman made onto their screen lol...
Edit: bar, you shoulda copyrighted it, called it "barmans bar" and sold it on Ebay, coulda made a fortune man !
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thanks to avi and ropa? you been going on and f@#!ing on about how great you are.. all that was needed to say visual aids should be illegal? really dude...
ok, i agree with komo.. he owns, I'm average,.and visual aids should be illegal
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avi my 1st post regarding my skills in BnG was a contrast between notching and non-notching, it was aimed to help people understand how powerful notching can be and how easy it is to learn, stressing the point I learned WITHOUT visual aids, I won a Tournament only missing 3 shots when notching, and I had been notching for like 1 week...That isn't normal, that's totally unfair, barman has this capability also, but using visual aids, you can actually predict pixel perfect where a shot will hit, that's diabolical !
I can't think for you man, you have to think for yourself, it's not my problem you have this obsession with me and the things I say, not to mention the fact you don't even understand half of it lol...
You then go onto saying:
"komo why do you say its unfair? you learned to notch, and all though you will never admit it, you still do, you just know that notches by heartbecause you have played so much bng...
and even if you don't admit it.. lets just go ahead and say you don't, and never do notch.. your knowledge of notching in the past has a direct link to your ability and skill now.. buti have a feeling you won't admit that either...."
I feel the need to defend myself, eventually leading to where we are now, if you don't want me to, then shut the f@#! up and stop trolling, I wonder if you guys would realise that if you stopped posting such nonsense, or call me out, or mention my name, I probably wouldn't have even posted here.
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i just agreed with every thing you had to say... and you still posy this long sorry book?
omg.. it must because i can't understand half of what you say, your just so deep mannnnn *snaps fingers*
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Yes and i'm the King of the bunana people...
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Komo and Avi fights a lot on virtual scene, but thats what they would do in real life.
(http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/4006655+_090e60b768d10714c36e7accabbeafbc.jpg)
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Aw, nino, blank image??
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Komo and Avi fights a lot on virtual scene, but thats what they would do in real life.
(http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/4006655+_090e60b768d10714c36e7accabbeafbc.jpg)
lmfao, I followed the link, thumbs up xD
http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/4006655+_090e60b768d10714c36e7accabbeafbc.jpg
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i dont know wtf is this topic about , can i delete it ? xd
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Lol, I tried clicking on it, nothing happened for me :'(
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you should start erasing komo and avis post, they are too sad to read. Get a room u two.
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well, not everyone can be such a motivational and etiquette speaker, such as yourself dev.
we can all learn a thing or two from you.
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BnG is the most boring scheme ever. When you brag about how great you are at BnG, you're just bragging about what a boring person you are. If BnG was actually fun, more people would have bothered to get good at it.
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well said j0e..
i remember when you used to own at bng. (im pretty sure you were cheating though, you had some aim bot)
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I am glad you feel like that, is it like comparing real life football to chess, just because 1 is more popular doesn't make it harder to learn or the other easier to learn, your last 15 words couldn't be more wrong :)
Your whole post is entirely irrelevant and full of personal emotion.
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there is some truth in his words, if people don't like rr/roper/elite they don't say it's boring, but most people who don't like bng say it's boring xD
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ttrr is boring
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roper is boring (exept avirex plays)
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there is some truth in his words, if people don't like rr/roper/elite they don't say it's boring, but most people who don't like bng say it's boring xD
I agree to this when watching 2 noobs play, but to watch the great players play, it isn't...
And imo, same goes for every scheme, for example, watching Chelsea play TTRR, is boring... Watching Mablak, is fun !
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And imo, same goes for every scheme, for example, watching Chelsea play TTRR, is boring... Watching Mablak, is fun !
seroisly ? xDD
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well said j0e..
i remember when you used to own at bng. (im pretty sure you were cheating though, you had some aim bot)
Meh.. there used to be an aimbot that worked about 7 years ago.. but it hasn't worked for a long time. I used it a few times.
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i dont remember the clan you were in, or the clan i was in for the matter....
but it was many years ago.. (you already said pre-2007) and you DID play clanners with this bot, i got pissed and said theres no f@#!ing way u can play this good :DD you admitted it was aim bot, and that was the end of it... never thought much of it again until now.
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Nah I didn't have that thing, I did have a shot while I was at m3ntals house though.
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i dont remember the clan you were in, or the clan i was in for the matter....
but it was many years ago.. (you already said pre-2007) and you DID play clanners with this bot, i got pissed and said theres no f@#!ing way u can play this good :DD you admitted it was aim bot, and that was the end of it... never thought much of it again until now.
I played some clanners with this bot. Nothing crazy but definitely a few. Actually I think I remember that game you're talking about now that you mention it, which considering how bad my memory sucks it must have been funny as f@#! for me to remember it. :)
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hey j0e :D
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i had this silkworm aimbot you speak of, and if you knew what you were doing it was undetectable because it would first aim to your pointer depending on seconds selected to always explode on impact, and you could just remember the angle, tap until you're close to it then just hit a hotkey (c or something it was) and it would seem just like another notch tap.
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well said j0e..
i remember when you used to own at bng. (im pretty sure you were cheating though, you had some aim bot)
I never owned at bng.. just low-average skill. If you saw me owning I was probably getting lucky or using an aimbot. However I didn't use it to cheat in league games.. just for some shits because it was so insanely accurate with its complicated explode-on-impact bouncing shots. You could hit a worm practically anywhere on the map, even darksiders. Lots of fun when it worked. It was pretty easy to detect if you knew what to look for. I'd like to say I never once used it in league games.. but I can remember a few times actually.
For the record, this aimbot was just a testing tool made by CS/DC for an old version of WA (3.6.26.25) which was replaced in 2007. All players must be using the old version for it to work. Otherwise the hack is disabled or the game won't connect at all. It was only distributed amongst the game's beta testers (Wyvern, Lex, m3ntal, probably Komo, me for some reason, and maybe a couple others) and AFAIK it has been kept top secret and has never leaked out into the wild. So nobody should worry that they're getting aimbotted against, except maybe by Dcrew's trajectory hack which is a piece of shit. I don't know if Dcrew's hack is in the wild. I heard he was trying to sell it.
I think it's long enough after the fact that I can talk about it.
yeah he tried to show me that aimbot, but i had to install that patch and it didnt work anyway lol
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Hey devilage :D
This was different from silkworm.. silkworm's aimbot was good, but you could only do direct shots with it, no bounces. You could also preview your shot with this so you could call your shot first with the teleport cursor.
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Oh silkworm? Yeah I had that for a while but got bored of it real quick, so many people had that too lol...
I thought you were talking about summin else :D
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many people had silkworm yes, but there are plenty of versions of silkworm. Whilst working online, not many people had the auto aim, otherwise more than one people would of been caught for using it competitively (MrRaja).
j0e is speaking of the tool used to make the TAS missions and such, which is something totally different but I wasn't aware that could be used online.
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Everybody and their goat had silkworm 3.5. The aimbot wasn't improved in later versions afaik... I had version 4.13f 'ultra' with the mousewheel flying and stuff. Not sure if there were newer ones after that. But to be clear, I wasn't talking about silkworm.
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perverts segaioli
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Cheat
i demand a BAN!
xD
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Everybody and their goat had silkworm 3.5. The aimbot wasn't improved in later versions afaik...
Yes they did, but only after WA was patched. The one everyone and their mothers had whilst it was still working on wormnet was the roping/auto chute/girder kill one, which didn't have the aimbot.
I had version 4.13f 'ultra' with the mousewheel flying and stuff. Not sure if there were newer ones after that. But to be clear, I was talking about the TAS hack like ropa said, not silkworm.
That's the one Deathcharge and Deadcode used to host T17 games, again, only really made available massively when you needed to emulate older WA in order to make it work. (not saying you didn't have it early, mind (i actually recall you and lex where toying with this stuff early))
I don't remember much about it, but I recall DC chuting the whole map, or having his worm as his mouse cursor and moving him freely using him as a map erasing tool.
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What is TAS hack then? The thing I had a go of at Liams house was some frame by frame thing for roping, and doing BnG it had a line drawing out the complete shot every bounce and where it will explode, the accuracy was pixel perfect, we had ALOT of fun with that ! I was helping him test it out or something since he knew I loved BnG lol.
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That's the TA (tool-assisted) version of the game, the one used in making the assisted mission speedruns on the wiki (http://worms2d.info/Mission_records), the TCB rewards and the various awesome replays Deadcode has posted over the years. It's also an excellent tool for explaining what the hell happened when weird borderline glitches pop up, as they tend to during WA gameplay. Has multiplayer disabled completely.
So much misinformation in this thread, by the way. Wouldn't know where to start. :-[
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many people had silkworm yes, but there are plenty of versions of silkworm. Whilst working online, not many people had the auto aim, otherwise more than one people would of been caught for using it competitively (MrRaja).
EiF got their first ever clan league championship win because MrRaja beat CKC in the playoff finals using silkworm in bng.
Its a shame when you look back at the amount of league winners from cheating.. especially sCa when you think about notching and xspeed..
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What gets me, HOW is it possible for people to feel glory through cheating?
Why are humans so f@#!ing needy & desperate for attention & respect that they must cheat or find the lamest but legal ways possible to win...
Their parents obviously done a horrible job of raising them, taught them nothing about hard work & honor...
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Padded spacebars to extreme sensitivity seems ridiculous too, I mean, I have the same kb as mablak and my taps are lightyears from his. Not trying to lessen his skills given his padded spacebar, as he's obviously made the best of it, but you have admit it's a solid advantage over everyone who's never been taught how to do it as perfectly as him.
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Why are humans so f@#!ing needy & desperate for attention & respect that they must cheat or find the lamest but legal ways possible to win...
lazyness, of course.
and cuz ppl = shit :)
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Many people (probably the majority of humanity) have social/personality issues manifesting in attention seeking, each of them have their own way to compensate..
You can feel glory for finding a new method (even if it's cheating) to be good at something. You can call it desperate, or you can call it creative. Also, most of the adolescents turn against their parents' ways at a time, when searching for their own.
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Nice analogy Prank, perhaps creative, but still sad & lonely lol.
I just wish people who want to get good at something, would do it the honorable way.
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Their parents obviously done a horrible job of raising them, taught them nothing about hard work & honor...
i was just skimming through this topic, and i was reading this, lol:
Their parents obviously done a horrible job of raising them, taught them notching ....
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Padded spacebars to extreme sensitivity seems ridiculous too, I mean, I have the same kb as mablak and my taps are lightyears from his. Not trying to lessen his skills given his padded spacebar, as he's obviously made the best of it, but you have admit it's a solid advantage over everyone who's never been taught how to do it as perfectly as him.
I can tell you that it's an advantage, sure at first you will need to get used to the high sensitivity, but once you have adapted there is no way back. It just feels better. If it wasn't for modding I would have to buy one of these ultra flat kbs and find the best, which would be expensive. You don't need to get taught though, I just opened the keyboard and started to see what I can put under space to make it feel more responsive. It's lightyears away from the dedication you need to notch perfectly and everyone can do it. Get a screwdriver and have fun modding. ;)
I take no warranty if you damage your keyboard though! I have killed some kbs that way, well "killed" may be exaggerating but they were crippled in such a way that you couldn't type on them anymore or have other faults.
If everyone had the same kb and same everything I would happily drop it, but I know for a fact that I am not the only one modding his space, so instead of complaining I am just adapting.
And NO, I was not the first to mod his spacebar, I got the idea of doing it from Wargod back in NBR. He said why don't you make your space more responsive by putting something squishy such as paper under it. So I tried and liked it, that's the story.
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Anybody proposing that we limit key sensitivity has to come up with a standard that we can't go under, in grams, since we've never had such a standard. But I don't see any reason to do that, when there are no negative consequences to allowing maximum sensitivity. It's something almost everyone can easily do, and doesn't actually ruin any scheme as visual aids do; as far as I can tell it opens up slightly more roping possibilities, and that's it.
If you look at virtually any sport, people generally have to pay hundreds of dollars more to get top of the line equipment, yet most of us would consider those sports relatively fair. With keyboards, you don't even necessarily have to pay a dime more, and those advantages in equipment are open to everyone. Yes it's an advantage, but it's one that we all have easy access to, no barriers such as money.
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You say it's something almost everyone can easily do, but it's not like extreme spacebar sensitivity has been openly promoted in any way either. It's just been lurking more than anything. The select few who've modded their keyboard still have a large advantage over everyone, yet it isn't openly taught or given proper guidance like with a detailed 'how-to'.
Run a poll and again I'll bet only a select few admit to modding their space. If it was so easy and accepted, you'd think everyone would be doing it by now and the playing field would be perfectly level, but I claim it is not unfortunately.
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why everyone that thinks that something "not acceptable" or something that supposedly gives "advantage" should be explained with details for everyone to know? if some ppl were smart enough (and spent their time) to discover these stuff by themself they dont have the obligation to share it with everyone.
and i dont mean cheating stuff like programs or macros i mean some different methods, like notching or modded kbs
yes its fair that everyone is aware of it but the basics should be enough
what else theres to know about putting a paper under a key?
and maybe not everyone uses this because they are used to their spaces or kbs already, or maybe because they are afraid to break it.
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It's basically just this: You open up your kb, you put something appropriate under it (trial and error since every kb acts different to it), you put it back together and see if space still works, if it doesn't you re-open it until you have a sweet spot. There is no voodoo magic involved and it's pretty amateurish if you ask me that literally anyone can do. I would start with a kb you can spare in case you f@#! it up. I learned that the hard way. ;)
You can also just remove the key cap and put something on top of the membrane (I would not suggest to try it with mechanical ones) but expect to open up your keyboard if it slips away, I remember once I was too lazy to open up my kb all the time so I just put things under the key cap and when it slipped away I just put another and so on. One day I decided okay time to clean that up and hell there was a mess inside.
It's no rocket science. -.-
Daina! Good post.
Edit: Yep, when I was younger I was sooo scared to break my kbs, and some did break and I was a sad panda. :(
Nowadays I have stocked up on them (still have 5 unused left) when I saw them cheap on ebay, should last a lifetime now.
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You say it's something almost everyone can easily do, but it's not like extreme spacebar sensitivity has been openly promoted in any way either. It's just been lurking more than anything. The select few who've modded their keyboard still have a large advantage over everyone, yet it isn't openly taught or given proper guidance like with a detailed 'how-to'.
Run a poll and again I'll bet only a select few admit to modding their space. If it was so easy and accepted, you'd think everyone would be doing it by now and the playing field would be perfectly level, but I claim it is not unfortunately.
There you go. ;)
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sweet!! now we all will be able to own ropers, AND bng!! *sarcasm*
all the tools are there, yet very few take advantage... barman took full advantage of bng, and thats about it... all though komo acts like the entire wnet is just notching every single shot...
lets see who takes advantage of this KB mod, will there be another mablak tomorrow? i doubt it.
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With regards to the bng rules i believe these are biased to notchers. I'll try to write an explanation why i believe unlimited shotgun, the removal of positional darksiding rules and map styles encourage notching, not combat it.
First of all, everyone is learning to notch and competitive bng (based on the limited games i've played this year) have turned more into a 3sec, 4sec, lg 5sec and low strength full power wind shots. This mainly comes from the high style maps made with narrow tall gaps where sometimes you don't have many 3sec options unless you dig. Don't even think about zooking with some mid-full strength winds. Hides are deep in these gullies and 4secs and lg 5s are notched for the majority of the game. (map style here: https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-149237/) Then maps which have tunnels under single dots allow a worm to find new gaps and create angle with sg which only gives them an option to 1 or 2 shots and these hides have been made based on knowing the notch distance (probably from a visual aid) to hit your opponent.
If you remove unlimited shotgun, you have to rely on teleporting into a riskier position to gain angle, or blast a much larger opening to create angle, allowing your opponent a better chance to hit you. This creates a disadvantage which i think is justified because alternatively you are taking an evil hide with limited shot options when using shotgun. Also while you make your hide with shotgun you don't have angle and in old rules this is a cow because you don't have angle to make a shot. In old BnG rules you should be able to attack every turn. If you were darksiding and didn't get the wind you wanted when having no bank or grenade option this was a cow.
As notching is more exposed and gaining popularity, why not tailor the bng rules to be more like nrbng? When notching wasn't well known some 6 years ago or so myself and many clan mates would use darksiding methods in bng's to beat notchers. Me and ropa would play sCa with unanch bng. Me and Dub would find hides where it was difficult to notch us between the notches and use skillful bank shots to still deal damage to opponents. Now this form of defense is limited because you can create almost any angle with the sg option and make evil hides with the prefect notch shot in a couple of turns.
Now I guess you can look at it in two ways and say its peoples fault for not learning to notch while others took the time to learn a aiming technique. That's fair enough, but i believe the current scheme is in favour of that playing style.
Personally i think the scheme shouldn't include sg, should have more griders, consider limiting the number of teleports, reinstate the darksiding rule where if you do not have a shot you cow. This would limit the option of creating evil hides tailored to a notch specific shot. It would put more focus on making hits and pushes because you have to be careful about your hide choices, going somewhere that will open up easily could come back to get you later if you can't escape. If two notchers are playing then there will be more of an intense rally as both are getting decent hits, but the power of pushes will limit the angles and potentially ask for a creative floor bank or different style zook shots as a result of this.
I think we should look at the style of maps, many years ago we wouldn't use flat maps, we'd use the 1 island random and people could darkside on the edges and build a girder. This resulted in having to learn some banks and also curling zooks with strong winds. You can see this skill set from darksiding in hysteria, i think it encourages some nice style of bng with lg winds that you just don't see in bngs anymore. The opponent who is still up top needs to know how to curl zooks against the wind, can attempt to hit the enemies girder to get a transfer and also as the worm they are going for is much lower then the whole power of your shot is totally different to the standard style that has been mastered by notching. With limited teleports the player that decides to darkside in this manor has to pay serious thought as they could get stuck in an awkward place in the map with no shots and be cowing and take a necessary penalty.
Anyway, my main point is that this older style of bng, with older schemes and older rules is a decent tactic against notching that the current style of competitive bng games does not encourage. I don't believe the scheme is dead as others have said, i just think it needs to go back to the roots, and does not allow for a scheme and rule set that is not so advantageous to notching and limits the 'Darth Naders' of us in bng 8) These tactics and style of play i've used in many leagues and clanners in the past and although i can still handle my own in the current rule set, the option to play in this style has been removed.
When we edit schemes we shouldn't just think about what is being added or taken away, we should look more deeply into the tactics that are behind the schemes and the different playing styles that are effected by the decisions we make. The more playing styles and variations that we can bring to a competitive league match the better. People have developed their own styles and tactics personal to them over many years and that is the joy of worms. Just look at inter/elite and how there are so many different ways of implementing your tactics and style in the scheme. Changes can limit the options and style of a player that others many not have considered or learnt, just because something is popular by the majority of players doesn't necessary means it should change, allowing more variation is the key, steering us to all play a scheme with the same tactic isn't.
ps. If you wanna move this to the barman bng thread it may be more appropriate there.
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please, add jetpack to the f@#!ing bng instead of stupid teleport because bng is about bazook and nades not about wasting a whole damn turn just to move to a place where you gets your stupid chance to attack as well as opponent can hit you and force to teleport another f@#!ing turn!1
There was games when one player didnt get a single chance to attack because his turn was last and opponent pushed him every time. Ofc if his opponent is so good he is probably deserving a win. But we dont know how good is the player who had last turn because well, he couldnt actually attack. Its like get 1st turn on shoppa, and get petrol, block opponent worm and repeat this 1000 times till win
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but seriously what a freak propposed teleport on bng? What happened in his life to force him into conclusion wasting a turn of nothing is actully fun? Maybe somebody have information was he exactly retarded? Because 1 point of IQ should be enough to realize jetpack is much better than his teleport
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but seriously what a freak propposed teleport on bng? What happened in his life to force him into conclusion wasting a turn of nothing is actully fun? Maybe somebody have information was he exactly retarded? Because 1 point of IQ should be enough to realize jetpack is much better than his teleport
this is a clear example of the change in bng chicken is talking about.
i mean, you don't even comprehend the purpose of teleport and why its balance towards losing an attacking turn.
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but seriously what a freak propposed teleport on bng? What happened in his life to force him into conclusion wasting a turn of nothing is actully fun? Maybe somebody have information was he exactly retarded? Because 1 point of IQ should be enough to realize jetpack is much better than his teleport
this is a clear example of the change in bng chicken is talking about.
i mean, you don't even comprehend the purpose of teleport and why its balance towards losing an attacking turn.
I know about advantages of teleport more than your brain can allow you to imagine. I know jet-pack will remove pushing and allow to move to places perfect for notching. But its giving a better balance between more skilled player. Because once some noob as you decide to play bng he'll probably will use all the advantages of bng, but if someone really skilled take a hand at your proud ass he'll f@#! you turn by turn and all you will be supposed to do is two thing, first is teleporting from one place to another and second is crying about why bng dont have a damn jetpack
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but seriously what a freak propposed teleport on bng? What happened in his life to force him into conclusion wasting a turn of nothing is actully fun? Maybe somebody have information was he exactly retarded? Because 1 point of IQ should be enough to realize jetpack is much better than his teleport
this is a clear example of the change in bng chicken is talking about.
i mean, you don't even comprehend the purpose of teleport and why its balance towards losing an attacking turn.
remove pushing and allow to move to places perfect for notching. But its giving a better balance between more skilled player. Because once some noob as you decide to play bng he'll probably will use all the advantages of bng, but if someone really skilled take a hand at your proud ass he'll f@#! you turn by turn and all you will be supposed to do is two thing, first is teleporting from one place to another and second is crying about why bng dont have a damn jetpack
This does not even make sense. You can never remove being pushed because its an event that occurs out of your turn. If i hit you, you are pushed and your angle may change to where you have fewer or greater shot chances.
At this point you have to make a decision to remain in your hide and shot me back, in an attempt to push me so i have a harder chance of returning fire.
Or.
You decide to teleport into a stronger hide which may be more difficult for me to hit and get ready to attack me again. But there is the risk i'll hit you straight away in your new hide.
My point is the shotgun changes the dynamics of hides and teleports, it allows for hides with tight angles where players can notch a prefect shot out. Instead of being in hides with more angle and a larger range of shots to implement, or a larger range of shots that can hit them.
I don't see any logic to your argument or relation jetpack in bng.
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I didnt read your posts because they are too long so Im kinda not sure what are you exactly want to say but the fact is that jetpack removing from bng such thing as pushing - FACT! is it good or not thats another question
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I didnt read your posts because they are too long so Im kinda not sure what are you exactly want to say but the fact is that jetpack removing from bng such thing as pushing - FACT! is it good or not thats another question
Lol.
Impo, Chicken said that you can't remove pushing itself, with jetpack you only ease the consequences. If you don't take the time to read someone's post before answering, just stay quiet.
Also Chicken,I think people use smaller variation of shots because it's easier to master. A "strong hide" reduces your chances the same way as a hide made with shotgun. Yes, shotgun does change the dynamics, but is that a bad thing? It gives you a little bit more chance to turn the game, because in some cases if there's no hide, you can make your own. Or maybe we should just make BnG bo3 on the same map..
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impo is saying you can jetpack to a hide, and still able to shoot after you land...
rather then wasting a complete turn with a tele, and then just getting hit once again...
im not supporting his idea, just making it easier to understand, i dont think chicken got his point.
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aw ok.
Thats quiet a novel idea, however you could just jetpack a few pixels forward to but perfectly lined up for a notched shot in a super evil hide you've just created in a couple of turns with sg and goes against my original post of how certain scheme changes have empowered notching technique.
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I like the jetpack idea, why should someone give a free turn if you can move and attack.
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jp is not a horrible idea.. but ofc there would have to be some strict guidelines so ppl dont abuse it..
like, no inching forward... if you want to use jp you must take flight, and atleast travel 50 pixels away..
and have a very short fuse on the jp... so ppl cant fly to a place then spend 10 second positioning themselves into the perfect little spot...
but.. i dunno, maybe there is some negatives to it.... dont know unless ya try.. experimental season anyone? :D
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I don't understand why Chicken says the addition of shotgun helps notchers more than everyone else, is there any evidence to support that? If anything, as a BnG player who doesn't notch very often, I find that the shotgun allows me to employ exactly the sort of oldie tactics he mentions we should be allowed to resort to, i.e. borderline darksiding, uncommon shots (banks, double banks, bunny hops), quirky shots (glorious down and up bounces), constructing and maintaining hides difficult to hit for a notcher (think overhangs where either a low angle shot or digging is required to get to you, hides that are between full power notches from where they are)...
Unlimited teleport on the other hand means that when I see my notching opponent teleport into an evil hide or construct their own perfect one where they only have a single shot at me, I can simply move away without worrying about running out of teleport, then continue taking shots at them while they waste even more turns adapting their hide to be able to hit me in my new position, in turn making themselves even easier to hit.
Clearly the vast majority of the blame for the current situation where new BnG players are being pigeonholed into this one style of play falls on those ridiculous flat maps with zero height difference. On top of that, many of the highly ranked/respected players are actually using saved, identical or almost identical maps whenever they're the ones hosting, and as we've seen recently, some of them are outright breaking TUS rules on visual aids. Before proper judgement can be made on just what the effect of shotgun being added to the scheme is, surely these no doubt greater factors need to be addressed, no?
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Unlimited teleport on the other hand means that when I see my notching opponent teleport into an evil hide or construct their own perfect one where they only have a single shot at me, I can simply move away without worrying about running out of teleport, then continue taking shots at them while they waste even more turns adapting their hide to be able to hit me in my new position, in turn making themselves even easier to hit.
In theory that's correct, but practical any bng map you have at most 4-5 very good hides, rather 3-4 on each side. So once you have them bombarded which doesn't take that long you are doomed. I would fight the problem with bigger maps, double the size we just need an easy way to randomize them. Just take any bng and see how many good hides are there, I am sure you won't need more than 2 hands to count them. :I
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:-[ ohh the times when 4 worms each autoplaced on Cups was the thing. All I remember is bng being a little more fun then, but those were simpler times obviously. I really don't know if bng can be saved now.
Should be no rules and played on cups :)
already suggested this xD (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/complaints/bng-ckc-34261/msg27035/#msg27035)
(http://www.wmdb.org/images/maps/medium/6377.jpg)
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Could see some wonderful 4s sitters in the cups!
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unanchored nrbng
every man out for themselves, including nothcers
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:-[ ohh the times when 4 worms each autoplaced on Cups was the thing. All I remember is bng being a little more fun then, but those were simpler times obviously. I really don't know if bng can be saved now.
Should be no rules and played on cups :)
already suggested this xD (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/complaints/bng-ckc-34261/msg27035/#msg27035)
(http://www.wmdb.org/images/maps/medium/6377.jpg)
I remember that w2 BnG thing as well, played it a couple of times too, pretty fun and would like it as an option if both opponents agree on it. It's just more fun and dynamic.
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Disagree with the whole SG thing, I was the one who 1st proposed using SG in BnG, for pretty much the reasons KRD stated, with the added benefit of more possibilities for trick shots.
Tom makes some good points though, I do feel guilty for the whole "flat map" thing as it was me who kinda make it so popular, but not in the same way people are using/abusing it...
I do agree that maps are somewhat the problem, if anyone would care to watch this game quickly:
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-149332/
Was actually alot of fun, sure, some lucky shots, but it's better than being notched...
We should definitely start being much more creative with our maps, at the very least, stop using -forest.
Tentacle/fruit/desert/tribal are all very good terrains which i've used alot in the past also...
I'll make another post in the morning there is more i'd like to say but got stuff to do atm before work...
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Hodor.
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Hows that so many people still believe bng can be anyhow fixed/improved after all these years? Its a "simple", pixelate turn based 2d game. Change core of bng for say, real time worms with some kind of mirrored maps and you will have equal ground, but it wont be worms. This scheme has no strategy at all, so all you have is 2 facing worms and 1 shot every turn, whats there to fix? Every additional rule will make it even more sillier coz people will get around and abuse them anyway. If it wasnt for the sake of scheme that has history and that i loved it over few years id remove it from league long time ago without asking MI. Guess i will have to say that again in a year or two, but who cares.
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Unlimited teleport on the other hand means that when I see my notching opponent teleport into an evil hide or construct their own perfect one where they only have a single shot at me, I can simply move away without worrying about running out of teleport, then continue taking shots at them while they waste even more turns adapting their hide to be able to hit me in my new position, in turn making themselves even easier to hit.
In theory that's correct, but practical any bng map you have at most 4-5 very good hides, rather 3-4 on each side. So once you have them bombarded which doesn't take that long you are doomed. I would fight the problem with bigger maps, double the size we just need an easy way to randomize them. Just take any bng and see how many good hides are there, I am sure you won't need more than 2 hands to count them. :I
Right, I agree that 4 solid hides on each side is about as much as you can expect on a good day, but that's something you can plan ahead for, from the very start of the game. What's important, especially in clanners, is that one side doesn't get an obviously better deal than the other, but again, TUS rules let you ask for a rehost in such cases, don't they? Apart from that, bombing hides is and should be a valid BnG strategy, and it's not like a notcher gets an advantage there either; you can dig better with Tom's low power high wind zooks than with 4s full power nades. :D
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lacoste said it best!!
every additional rule only makes the scheme sillier...
w2 knew what they were doing with bng (and roper) just no damn rules.. play to win!!
there would be less fighting, less drama, less complaints, and to be perfectly honest, more fun...
even sitters should be legal.. honestly, thats how we should have an experimental season, 1 season of no rules bng, and ill bet it sticks.
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bombing hides is and should be a valid BnG strategy
Damn right, one of my best tactics ever.
I agree with what avirex says, I tried pushing it a while back as well but no one listened.
NrBnG would be much better, i'd also like to try 2 worms each with 100hp for 1v1, and 4 worms each team with 100hp each for 2v2, but that might just be me...
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KRD and Komodo make good points in response to my original post. Same with Anubis and long maps. I agree with what your saying.
I just felt that sg allowed for notchers to pin point the hides between a notches and then sg a hide. But like you said KRD, in those turns i could be moving and setting up my own base and using sg to my own advantage.
I think the maps, especially presaved is just as valid as my sg point and i was mainly trying to say that the boarderline darksiding tactics that you used to be able to do are harder to implement these days..
I know what type of maps i'll be hosting on this season 8)
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I advise everyone who enjoys BnG to download all of Ramones BnG maps & all of Xrayez new BnG maps, you can edit them slightly each time you play and reseed making it different each time !
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(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/052/3/9/jackie_chan_meme_by_woodenmarker-d5nvzt8.jpg)
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heaheaheaheae