You should see the need, in the clanner we played today, it seemed like some people didn't even realize that the losers might in fact be the winners.

And yeah I want the same rule to apply to 1v1 and 2v2 for consistency. I fully support getting rid of judging by the whole second, I mean most of the time you still won't have to check the replay, only if it's a tie in 1v1 or there's a 1 second difference in 2v2. I just phrased the rule like this because I know everyone in TUS is probably too lazy to consider more of a change than that.

This discussion has happened before, but I'm not sure why there's still no rule about it. We should add a rule allowing teams to judge times in RR by fractions of a second whenever they wish. It's not a huge problem when you tie by the whole second in 1v1 RRs, since whoever really won is just going to get a tie instead.

But in 2v2 rrs, the team that really won has a chance of turning into the losing team. If one side got times of 31.1 and 30.1 and the other side got times of 30.9 and 30.9, the times would look like 61 versus 60, when it was really 61.2 versus 61.8.

"Times are measured by the whole second you finish on. However, if one team requests it (within 5 minutes of the game being finished), times must be judged exactly, by checking the replay."

Does anybody have any problem with just adding this in?

If anyone (who knows I'd consider them trustworthy) wants my notching notes, PM me. My only requirement is that you dont use any visual aids or notes when playing, and you don't give the notes to anyone who wouldn't do the same.

Agreed with Komo, this is a league, the standard should be that people are both allowed and encouraged to do whatever it takes to win within the rules. If people don't want to play a given scheme that way, they should simply stick to playing it in funners.

D1's example about referees is an exception I agree with, however it's different from the notching situation. In this case, the player is simply trying to adhere to the rules by calling the ref on his mistake, to do otherwise could be considered cheating, not merely bad sportsmanship. I think most instances of bad sportsmanship (aside from just having a bad attitude) are similar, trying to get away with basically breaking a rule through some flaw in how it's stated, even though you know the intentions of the rule should forbid what you're doing. In BnG, there's no explicit or implicit rule that people shouldn't be notching, and we can't make one.

Really, trying to regulate how 'politely' players play in-game is just continuing to nurture the idea of cheapness, I feel like that's partly what this is about. People need to realize that cheapness is a totally counter-productive consideration. It prevents skill from being measured accurately, and people constantly develop their own implicit rules about what's lame, resulting in two teams essentially playing a game with two different rule sets, and creating a ton of drama.

Yeah, 'confirmed' Jakka ;O

Ah ropa, the insatiable troll ;O. I'll respond to your "arguments" for the sake of anyone who happens to think that way. It doesn't matter whether someone knows exactly how to notch or not, my argument still applies: 'feel' BnGers use notching, there is no way to separate it out, or detect it, OR completely stop yourself from doing it. Your only point was that it's questionable for me to talk about notching when people might not know how it works, but I explained it in my last post.

It's simple to understand, every weapon aims at specific, discrete angles, notching means knowing your exact angle. And I already explained how to do it, works that way for every weapon. All you have to do is figure out and remember the distances for each angle. I'm not personally giving anyone I don't trust a list of angles and distances, because it's easy for people to put markers on the screen and make notching even easier, and I strongly disagree with visual aids or notes of any kind (please remember TUS has a rule against using markings). If anyone thinks a list should be published, they can do it themselves by testing each angle for various shots, it takes about 8 hours or so. It takes time to test, but anyone can do it.

The fact that some people dislike notchers mostly comes from people resenting the fact that they learned to play the scheme one way, when a much easier way exists. But there's no escape from the fact that notching is the most efficient form of playing, and has to be treated as legal. If that ruins the scheme, then maybe BnG shouldn't be a league scheme. Although I think a game of memory and some feel is reasonably interesting, at least it requires you to think each turn.

Jakka, please give my huge sum of award money to the World Food Programme (just select 'where need is greatest'):

https://www.wfp.org/donate/fillthecup_getinvolved

Kalababa streamed for us again, I forget his channel, maybe he can post it here

I'm assuming it's in Russian though >_>

Quote from: ropa on June 23, 2012, 12:06 PM

Quote from: Mablak on June 23, 2012, 11:42 AM
Nothing should be considered lame in league games, as long as it's legal. There may be exceptions to that of course, but surely using an aspect of the game mechanics that could not possibly be identified as a bug is legal. That is to say, there's no realistic way to identify an act of intentional notching, unlike say, intentionally getting extra angle with your bat. Notching can't be regulated, and is as much a part of the game as say, jumping. Also fr4nk, you and all of us who BnG with feel use notching as well, because our eyes are trained to identify the discrete angles we see.

I used to think notching was going to be an easy 'fix' and it would just disappear in an update, but I've been shown that's really not going to happen, and it's not clear that most people want that to happen. If you guys think it's 'lame' in that it ruins the scheme, then I guess you should just stop considering the scheme skillful, but you shouldn't be blaming players who notch, or those who follow the rules.

You sound like a card counter telling regular Black Jack players to cope with it because your technique can't be detected.

Isn't card counting totally detectable with a good degree of certainty? In any case, card counting is forbidden by the rules of the casino, even if you do it undetectably you'd be cheating. Notching isn't forbidden by the rules, not just because it's undetectable, but because even 'feel' BnG incorporates notching. There's no sensible way to make it illegal.

At last it's over, I won 4-3 against Dario, and there was one tie. Pretty damn tense games, we both turned it around on each other a couple times, Dario game back from pretty bad positions in round 3 or 4 I think it was. Nice playing Dario, and thanks Jakka for hosting this, I'm proud to have earned the Hamilton cup! I assume it's named after this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rowan_Hamilton

Nothing should be considered lame in league games, as long as it's legal. There may be exceptions to that of course, but surely using an aspect of the game mechanics that could not possibly be identified as a bug is legal. That is to say, there's no realistic way to identify an act of intentional notching, unlike say, intentionally getting extra angle with your bat. Notching can't be regulated, and is as much a part of the game as say, jumping. Also fr4nk, you and all of us who BnG with feel use notching as well, because our eyes are trained to identify the discrete angles we see.

I used to think notching was going to be an easy 'fix' and it would just disappear in an update, but I've been shown that's really not going to happen, and it's not clear that most people want that to happen. If you guys think it's 'lame' in that it ruins the scheme, then I guess you should just stop considering the scheme skillful, but you shouldn't be blaming players who notch, or those who follow the rules.

Like Komo said, you should adopt a way of playing that focuses on genuinely getting better at schemes. If you were able to get into/win playoffs without being good at most schemes, then that wouldn't prove you were skillful, it would simply prove that TUS could be better at measuring skill.

Frank, do you wanna learn how to notch? Starting from aiming straight up, the worm's sprite changes after 5 smallest-possble-taps of the down arrow, then again after 4 more taps, then again after 4 more. So it's 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, and so on. That's all you really need to know, just have to figure out distances for each angle.

Alright let's plan on that then ;O

Way to... sock it to 'em