Quote from: avirex on October 29, 2016, 01:51 AM
PS: MI, i know your waiting in hopes that senator wakes up, and smells the coffee, because your not going to over rule him...  but, that's not going to happen... senator is stuck in his twisted head that abnormal maps are the norm around here.

Complaint thread is a place where both parts of the case + mod(s) share their points. Then comes the final decision. If you look at previous complaints, mods can ask for other mods' opinion and even have a vote. MI and I have disagreed on some things behind the scenes and we have asked an opinion from a third mod. We don't need to stick together. So far in this thread I have mostly just stated the current rules/practice of TUS, I haven't used "mod's discretion" much. I have said that imo it's ok to request a rematch when you haven't placed worms on the map (that was when I thought it's easy for all the people to detect a big map), that's it. You were just so quick to attack on me personally when you should have rather attacked on TUS rules/practice.

In this case there wasn't even a decision to be made at first cos you said that you don't want to post a replay or mention any names. Now you wan't this specific game to be void so we need a decision.

Here comes my vote: the game should stay
- currently there's no rule that the host should inform about a big map
- your rematch request was justifiable. It came a little late but it's not a problem in this case.
- before your second turn, you said that you will continue the game
- instead of surrendering/quitting, you played till the end and tried to win

Now MI can give his vote. I don't mind if he disagrees with me. I think both sides have valid arguments. If it's 1-1, then MI's vote decides cos he is the boss.

Quote from: avirex on October 29, 2016, 01:46 AM
i said in the game very clearly, that we are going to finish, and if big maps are not allowed, then the game will be void and we are wasting our time...

Yes and then you found out that big maps ARE allowed.

Quote from: avirex on October 29, 2016, 01:46 AM
you ask me about a risk free game?? sure, thats exactly what it was going to be, because RIP was too much of a poor sport to just RH when i asked nicely... instead he raged.

A risk free game when you don't agree with the map but keep playing doesn't make sense.

Quote from: avirex on October 29, 2016, 01:46 AM
senator, the rules clearly state that i must finish all games, then file a complaint, the rule tell me not to quit...   you are a mod no?? im confused now.

First you tell me to take the rules just as a "guideline", now you are taking them literally? I guess you missed this part: "Mostly the moderators will consider the state of the game, the way of the quitting, how the conversation went"

If you had surrendered right after you requested a rematch, things would look better don't you think? You requested a rematch, then stated that you will play the game. You played the game till the end and lost. Then you found out that big maps are allowed unlike you thought.

Quote from: avirex on October 29, 2016, 01:46 AM
senator, you keep going back to "what if the host forgets to tell" well, once its a rule, no one should forget, and if they do, its their own damn problem... since when do MODS say "oh dude? you forgot that rule?? ok, no problem"

You are thinking only how this rule helps the victim. I'm thinking how it can be abused. People can take advantage of the host's mistake even when they are well aware that the map is big. "Sorry you didn't mention it's a big map. GG game void".

Quote from: avirex on October 28, 2016, 05:24 PM
I really don't see why your fighting against this so hard senator...

Even my complaint if you were doing your job, should have been void.

I'm not against that rule but it has a little flaw when the host forgets to inform the opponent (people are not perfect as Komo said). It allows you to decide based on the outcome of the first turns. If your opponent fails while you make a successful turn, you may want to continue despite the map. If you fail, you request a rematch. Maybe we can live with that... It would be better if people were capable of making the decision when placing worms. Aladdin said "map lol" to you when the first worm was placed so he noticed it right away. But as we have seen, we can't expect all the people to pay attention before the game really gets going..

Remember you continued playing after your request. So you are suggesting that you could have a riskless shot at winning and if you lose, you could get the game void?

[dt`wreckz] you cant choose big map
[dt`wreckz] i never in my life played a TUS game on a big map lol
[dt`wreckz] ill play, only cuz i dont know if its legal or not... but i will find out after game

Quote from: Senator on October 28, 2016, 12:53 AM
What if the host forgets to do that? How long can you play before requiring a map change? One turn? Even if you fail your turn?

Nah man. You spread false statements about what I have said/mean't so I wanted to correct you. "Biased interpretations of the rules" is not correct. Other mods wouldn't void a Shopper game that was played on large map but they would void a TTRR game that was played on a Big RR map.

Here's a rule of thumb for you: if you see a map that looks small / has gaps on the sides, ask "isn't this a big map?" 99% of the time you don't need to ask and 99% of the time you are right.

TheMadCharles' method works too if you are not using wkSuperFrontendHD (you can't see the warning text if that feature is enabled). Then you get the exact dimensions of every PNG map.

avirex,
1. You asked at a general level without attaching a replay so I answered at a general level: yes, you can use big Shopper maps and no, there's no rule that the host should inform about the map size. There was this "light up = agree" rule which seemed fine to me because I can easily spot large maps. Then I said you could request a new map when you haven't placed your worms. Again, I can see easily in the game if the map is notably bigger without actually roping.
2. it's a fact that in some schemes big maps are allowed while in some they are not. It wasn't my interpretation. I just figured out some possible reasons why it's like that. Like if you wan't a bordered Roper map, it limits the map size to 1920x696 while for Shopper there are no limits cos the maps can be borderless and made outside WA's map editor.
3. yes, I try to find generalizable rules for all the cases cos it makes things easier. That means no judging whether your first turn was successful or not. If I did judge the state of the game, yes, in this specific case a rematch request after the first turn would be as fine as when placing worms.

My opponents have never informed me about the map size when they have picked a large Shopper map. They have just lighted up and I've said no, I don't accept a big map. I can imagine they would have forgotten / not realized to inform me even if it had been obligatory because it's not exceptional that a Shopper map is bigger than 1920x696 these days. Your powered up zooka comparison is just awful cos the map preview is something people always look at before they light up.

So you want a rule that you must inform the opponent about a large map? OK, I already said it would be nice if the host did that. What if the host forgets to do that? How long can you play before requiring a map change? One turn? Even if you fail your turn?

Now, after 2 months of release, there's a global chat. Better late than never I guess You can chat while in a game lobby too and switch between global/lobby chat.

You still fail to understand that I'm just telling how I think the TUS rules are and what's the reasoning behind them. Stupid or not, to my knowledge big Shopper maps are allowed while Big RR maps in TTRR aren't. I've been saying from my very first post that both clans/players need to agree on the map.

And you are totally ignoring how this could be abused: you fail a turn / worm placement and then start requesting a normal size map. Btw I checked that clanner game. I don't know about you but I noticed right away that the map is much higher than a normal map.

Quote from: avirex on October 27, 2016, 01:00 AM
Senator, can you show me where in the rules it says thatlarge maps are legal?

What's next large maps in elite? Bng? O shit, large map roper, that sounds fun *rolls eyes*

There's no written rule about it but there would be a rule if they were completely illegal. There are many Shopper/WxW maps that are bigger than 1920x696. It's ok to use them unless the other player/clan says no. For schemes like BnG and Elite the map should be normal size. This is even mentioned in the BnG rules. And using a Big RR map for TTRR, for example, is not ok. The so called common sense  can be used here. Elite and Hysteria are played on maps generated by the map editor so they are 1920x696. Roper and Team17 are played with border on so the maps are 1920x696. Big Shopper maps are a thing these days, big Elite maps aren't. Feel free to start building a new meta

Quote from: avirex on October 27, 2016, 01:00 AM
Also... if its OK to ask for a RH before anyone takes turn.... why can't I ask for a RH only after I took my own turn? That's when I found out about the big map, as I was taking my turn...

How can I agree to something that is unknown to me? Think about that, then give me a real answer... not a copy and paste from the rule book... because as lalo said, rules are a guideline, not a tell all.

Think about it. The line has to be drawn somewhere. We would also get complaints like "his worm placements were bad" or "his first turn wasn't really good". It's much more practical to have a clear rule such as "you can't request a normal size map after you have placed a worm on the map". That's why there is a clear rule "if you light up, you agree on the map". Many of the TUS rules are carefully considered by MI/DarkOne. As we see, there can still be some flaws.

If you don't notice the map is not normal size before you place your first worm, then it's really your own fault and you should pay a little more attention.

Quote from: avirex on October 27, 2016, 01:00 AM
BTW: rules tell me to finish game, make complaint later... what are you suggesting I should have done senator, quit directly after my turn? 

You should have said "hey this is not normal size map, rematch please" before you placed your first worm. After that the game would need to be replayed.

Quote from: lalo on October 26, 2016, 10:39 PM
That rule should be fixed asap and mods should use common sense to make a right decision despite of what the guideline may say.

What decision? avirex asked "is it allowed to use big maps" and "does the host need to tell if the map is big" so I copy pasted the current rules for him. What decision were you even expecting? avirex said he noticed the map is not normal size only after his first turn. For sure he can't request a new map after turns are played. That has to happen before you place any worm on the map.

Quote from: lalo on October 26, 2016, 10:39 PM
Rules are a guideline. If you see something is not fair and wrong you should be the first one to propose a change.

Hmm?

Quote from: Senator on October 26, 2016, 10:29 PM
Imo it's ok if you request a rematch before any turn is played when you notice the map is not normal size.

And yeah it would be nice if the host told that the map is not normal size.

I've proposed changes to several TUS rules (scheme avoiding being the most recent).

I just repeated what the rules say xd

From the league rules page:

QuoteBoth players/clans need to agree on the map. If you light up, you agree on the map. Using auto-light up is strictly forbidden.

From announcements:

Quote from: DarkOne on November 10, 2011, 11:06 PM
Summary:

• Both players/clans need to agree on the map
• If you light up, you agree on the map
• Using auto-light up is strictly forbidden

Quote from: DarkOne on November 10, 2011, 11:06 PM
If you light up, then that means you agree on the settings (scheme and map).

Those rules indeed indicate that "if you light up, it's your fault".

Imo it's ok if you request a rematch before any turn is played when you notice the map is not normal size.

And yeah it would be nice if the host told that the map is not normal size. But using a normal size map is not any rule. The host may as well think you are ok with the map cos usually it's possible to see from the preview if the map is big.

You can play on big maps but both clans/players need to agree on the map. You can request a normal size map but if you light up, that means you agree on the map.. If you can't see whether the map is normal size or not (details of the map look tinier in the preview box if big map), you can ask before lighting up.

Kradie is pretty much the only guy who hosts Ropers these days. You can find some WxW's if you know that scheme and (Time Trial) Rope Races.

But you can play Ropers in TUS league games! Most guys here on TUS play just league games.

Quote from: Korydex on October 23, 2016, 05:51 PM
But only xUSSR is good for the start

Why Finland then