Quote from: franz on April 13, 2012, 10:55 PM
HHC nice words, you bring interesting ideas. you're definitely bigger picture than I think anyone is so far, so I applaud you for that.

Thanks 

Quote"It's pretty hard to think for 2 though" --> not quite sure what meant here though, on my 2worms ROPER idea ;p

Have you ever played with 2 worms by yourself? It's quite a challenge. It's kinda like holding your arms outside and rotating one arm clockwise and the other counterclockwise. Sooner or later you'll synchronize and move them both in the same direction. Or.. it's like playing on 2 controllers at the same time when you're playing FIFA football on a console. 
You tend to mess up your hides; hide both worms on the same side of the map, etcetera. It's quite a challenge IMO.

I think this is the point. I'm hearing a lot of complaints that people realize ROPER is one of the most repetitive schemes and on top of that people still complain about crates --> this adds the extra strategy of having 2 worms just like in a clanner, and also changes how people deal with impossible crates if worms are on different parts of the map. Besides, it's not even a new concept, this was often how it was done in Worms2 even back in the day when people played 1on1.

this thread is making my head hurt. It started off as "new plan for leagues" and its turned into "new plan for schemes"... its gone way off course... people are saying "nice I agree"... then contradicting their "agreement" in the very next post, it really hurts my head, dont know where to start. All this from a "I hate hysteria" thread... gah, hate it

Quote from: franz on April 13, 2012, 10:08 PM
combining schemes into grouped ratings makes no sense. I understand that all this started from people disliking hysteria, but grouping hysteria into another scheme's rating is not the solution. nor is grouping every other scheme just because you can

It didn't start from people disliking hysteria. Scheme classes are the result of loads and loads of talking to achieve one goal: whoever wins the league at the end of the season is the one who deserves it the most*

I'm not going to go into detail about the system right here because to be quite honest I feel it would be wasting my time big time. But because I know you don't need all the details to realize a concept I'll try to sum it up:

the system assumes that the overall rating represents true worm skill in all schemes, but I can't tell if that's the goal of TUS classic league, or if it should. Scheme classes exist because something else forces it to be: balance. Balance is the term used to define in a rating number how balanced a wormer is scheme wise, ergo balance is there to stop people from scheme bashing and regulates other parts of the rating to ensure that the better you are at more schemes the better your rating is.Basically balance rewards or punishes your rating based on your all around skill.
Because you can't force people to keep balance amongst so many schemes, for activity reasons, that's when scheme classes came up.

Does this make any sense to you?

*based on all around skill and his performance through a season

HHC... i think your idea for "fun" based schemes are great, for funners....


this is a league, we all wanna know whos the best, and compete for the win, and bragging rights.

most of us still have fun, while competing, and try not to take it too serious... but the competition is what drives most of us... not really a funny, unpredictable, lots of weapon scheme :X



i still think the league is fine how it is... as Dub said, its crazy to think roper and wxw are classified together.... Ropa says it is.. because your roping, collecting a cr8, and making an attack.....      but does that mean hyst, and elite are the same thing? your trying to kill your opponent with the limited weapons your allotted...... nope, not the same scheme at all...

yeah, that was a bit more far fetched, but just trying to stress roper and wxw are hardly the same :X...... 

as MI said... he is much more likely to beat dub in wxw then roper, theres a very good reason for that

Quote from: avirex on April 13, 2012, 11:53 PM

Ropa says it is.. because your roping, collecting a cr8, and making an attack.....      but does that mean hyst, and elite are the same thing? your trying to kill your opponent with the limited weapons your allotted...... nope, not the same scheme at all...

That's a way to put it, if your aim is to oversimplify it to the point it's not even close to what I'm saying.

And I'm not sure of how good MI is currently at roping, but assuming a fitting WxW map for competitive gameplay the better roper will win 9 times out of 10, assuming of course both players are familiar with the scheme.

all im trying to say is they are not the same scheme in any way... not even close...


and neither is t17 and shoppa, they are even farther apart...

but keep fighting for what you believe in ropa!! you keen dooo eeett

Quote from: avirex on April 14, 2012, 12:09 AM
all im trying to say is they are not the same scheme in any way... not even close...

Hardly trying are you? You've said this a couple of times already without adding any substance to the argument. I know you don't agree with me. It doesn't matter, you're not achieving anything. Really, I don't want to explain things to you, it's a hell of an exercise. I'll keep doing my thing like you suggest because whilst I'm certain you'll never listen to me, others will, and you will eventually listen to those other people.

good point ropa

Quote from: ropa on April 13, 2012, 11:32 PM

Quote from: franz on April 13, 2012, 10:08 PM
combining schemes into grouped ratings makes no sense. I understand that all this started from people disliking hysteria, but grouping hysteria into another scheme's rating is not the solution. nor is grouping every other scheme just because you can

It didn't start from people disliking hysteria. Scheme classes are the result of loads and loads of talking to achieve one goal: whoever wins the league at the end of the season is the one who deserves it the most*

I'm not going to go into detail about the system right here because to be quite honest I feel it would be wasting my time big time. But because I know you don't need all the details to realize a concept I'll try to sum it up:

the system assumes that the overall rating represents true worm skill in all schemes, but I can't tell if that's the goal of TUS classic league, or if it should. Scheme classes exist because something else forces it to be: balance. Balance is the term used to define in a rating number how balanced a wormer is scheme wise, ergo balance is there to stop people from scheme bashing and regulates other parts of the rating to ensure that the better you are at more schemes the better your rating is.Basically balance rewards or punishes your rating based on your all around skill.
Because you can't force people to keep balance amongst so many schemes, for activity reasons, that's when scheme classes came up.

Does this make any sense to you?

*based on all around skill and his performance through a season

imo this is the best post i have read so far in this thread. im just afraid people wont read what it is really about. its not about saying roper = wxw.

adding schemes to groups wont equalize them, they are still different. but looking on the commonalities, in reference to the skills  you need to handle them, would help to balance the league out. so far u have 8 schemes each worth the same.  if you have 8 schemes its easy to focus on a few  schemes while beeing average at the others to reach playoffs.

by putting them into groups you would balance the whole stuff out. it wouldnt be possible to specify on just 1 scheme because you also need to be able to play the schemes where similar skill is needed.

for example: imo hysteria and bng got the same key skill: accuracy!. your tactics in hysteria can be perfect but without doing the right shot at the right time >> u lose

so whats the problem in saying: roper needs the same key skill as wxw?  for me its more obvious then in the hysteria example.

i also can agree on the shopper/team 17 thing, where its about weapon knowledge.

all schemes in classic league have already shown their singularity by beeing played in this league for years and developing int his time.  

current system: 2 or 3 schemes out of 8 are enough to reach playoffs

ropas system: u need to be competetive in  2 schemes to  to be succesful on only 1/4  of the whole league.

key question: which system is rather qualified to decide who is the best allrounder?

Who exactly is getting robbed from the standings anyway, due to lack of 'Scheme Classes'?  Your criticism of the current system makes it sound like lots of players are not reaching their 'true' place in the rankings, but when I look at final standings for each season, each player deserves to be there over the rest for one reason or another (if you disagree, we can discuss a specific player or just someone's stats if you like).

And who is getting into playoffs with only 2 schemes Peja?  I'm not sure if any of these accusations are even true or just made up to help an argument.  I'm sure others would like to hear as well.  I know I'm curious now.

If that wasn't the goal, to single people out, that's fine, but I get the feeling this discussion is just turning into idealistic theory of 'The Truly Perfect System.' And even if these 'Scheme Classes' do ever get decided upon, they would likely continue to be controversial because we've already seen many heated responses arguing against them --> and all this for what?  Would it really drastically change what we're seeing now?  Would it really be worth the trouble?

Quote from: franz on April 14, 2012, 02:41 AM

And who is getting into playoffs with only 2 schemes Peja?  I'm not sure if any of these accusations are even true or just made up to help an argument.  I'm sure others would like to hear as well.  I know I'm curious now.

well just an example, if you look on phanton, he is highly focused on team/hysteria and only a few time vs weak opponets he puts other scheme to balance it out. as long as he keeps up his t17/hysteria wins and is able to balance the rest of the schemes against much weaker guys he is constantly reaching playoffs although he doesnt really play schemes like elite/bng/ttrr at all. do you think this a good example for an allrounder?

he is 52wins, 5 loss - team 17

70 wins, 20 loss -hyst

16 wins, 6 loss- shoppa

5 wins, 0 loss - bng

23 wins, 10 loss - roper

7 wins,  3 loss - elite

19 wins, 11 loss - wxw

7 wins, 6 loss - ttrr

he has 60% or better in 7 schemes.... 6 out of those 7, he has played atleast 10 ore more matches....   he is 70% or better in 5 schemes, 4 of them 10+ games...



he may not be one of the best 'all arounders' but he has solid win percentage, and maybe hes making up his points by quantity of games in his higher skilled areas... (i dont blame him)


how exactly do you guys want this league to work? no1 in playoffs except the very best of the best??? anyone else in playoffs, there must be a bug?

now describe how Scheme Classes would solve everything?

I'm guessing t17 and hysteria wouldn't be grouped together, so what's stopping phanton from still playing t17's and hysteria's for two Scheme Classes?  In fact, wouldn't this help phanton more compared to some others who'd get their favorite schemes bundled?

I personally think phanton is a good allrounder and deserves a spot for his effort. it's not like there a tons of people getting ripped off of playoff spots --> he is simply one of the better players in all recent seasons. and all with the help of playing hysteria and t17, two schemes people have been arguing are like flipping a coin. (oh and all the other schemes he still has good win percentages in). he's good.

(all this is moot for phanton this season anyway, he's currently serving his playoff ban until next season when he can qualify again)

well ropa took a look  at all the schemes and said the balance of the classic is flawed because some skills get more rewarded then others. (example: wxw + roper = 1 basic skill but 2 schemes based on it)
the solution would be a system where similar schemes get paired.


lets just assume someone is mainly focused on wxw/roper/hysteria/  and worse in the other schemes:

in the current system he covers 3 of 8 ratings


in ropas/mablaks idea:

Roper/WxW
Elite/Intermediate
Team17/Shopper
BnG/Hysteria
RR

he would only cover 1 rating of 5 (because bng would affect his hysteria rating)



classic league wants to find the best allrounder and so far we have 2 ideas how to backup the all round factor.



idea 1: we base the league on 8 different schemes with same worth (current system)
basic idea: every scheme requires a specific skill, thats why the league is balanced

idea 2:  we base the league  on 8 different schemes divided in x  groups related to their skill level.
basic idea: all schemes require different skills, to balance the league we  pair  schemes with similar skill to groups.


to decide which idea is better we have a lot of stuff to discuss and tbh i cant really support one of these 2  systems with 100% (because im way to inexperienced compared to a lot of people here, just can talk from my point of experiece)

i see evidences for the second idea. for example: people with an unbalanced skillset reaching playoffs.
to be on top of an allround league you should be better then just average in all schemes.

how scheme pairings would solve something:

if someone is only bad at hysteria, he wil lose points in  an 1:1 vs someone who is only good in hysteria. the fact he would beat him in 7 of 8 schemes is useless then. in this case, the better allrounder is losing points. with a paired system he would have the chance to compensate his hysteria problem with bng.