Quote from: TitiO on August 18, 2010, 08:41 PM

Quote from: avirex on August 18, 2010, 08:28 PM
very true titio!  most of the yes votes are from the more respected, skilled, oldschool, strategic, players...

(b4 i get flamed... im not saying the no votes do not have any respected players)

yeh avirex, but the most of players that voted No, dont play roper..

What is wrong with that? If I wasn't a roper I would vote No also, because in my defense this adds another scheme to lose more points with... There should only be 1 roper scheme, and I really don't care which, both schemes are good, I just prefer Roper because yes, it's what I am used to, what's wrong with that? But if w2Rope went official, I would practise it and get good at it because I will always enjoy roper games, no matter what scheme is used...

Quote from: avirex on August 18, 2010, 08:28 PM
very true titio!  most of the yes votes are from the more respected, skilled, oldschool, strategic, players...

(b4 i get flamed... im not saying the no votes do not have any respected players)

It's a very good thing that you have access to who voted yes and who voted no. Ridiculous. Stop this, you're just making an idiot out of yourself.

Quote from: CMV on August 19, 2010, 11:45 AM

Quote from: avirex on August 18, 2010, 08:28 PM
very true titio!  most of the yes votes are from the more respected, skilled, oldschool, strategic, players...

(b4 i get flamed... im not saying the no votes do not have any respected players)

It's a very good thing that you have access to who voted yes and who voted no. Ridiculous. Stop this, you're just making an idiot out of yourself.

no CMV, isnt ridiculous, he said the truth, u know..

Quote from: Komo on August 19, 2010, 06:19 AM
What is wrong with that? If I wasn't a roper I would vote No also, because in my defense this adds another scheme to lose more points with... There should only be 1 roper scheme, and I really don't care which, both schemes are good, I just prefer Roper because yes, it's what I am used to, what's wrong with that? But if w2Rope went official, I would practise it and get good at it because I will always enjoy roper games, no matter what scheme is used...

btw, Komo is right too

the non ropers players, obvious that voted no to protect yourself.. unhappy have much more ground-players than ropers players.. at last roper is 1 scheme, ground schemes have an infinity of them.

There are quadrillions of Roper variations. My first roper scheme was 15s turntime, 5s retreat time. I've also heard of some "drill first turn" (?) rule in the original w2 scheme, not sure about that tho.

in the w2 scheme (played in w2 game) , u start in fixed positions, not teleported positions, then u dont have weapons in 1st turn, u just get ur cr8 and hide where u want. was 11 sec of turn and 5 to retreat.

can be have some variations at the wa roper scheme but the scheme used here in tus in only one. =P

We've talked about W2roper scheme, In this new season we'll try W2rope scheme as a second choice to classic roper to see how the results will turn out. Upon any kind of disagreement the classic roper scheme must be played. , you cannot force players to pick W2Roper.

Monkey Island

------

=*

yeah, so bite the bullet and stfu

I totally agree with komo, it's not about the scheme or the cr8s or even the rules. It's simply about the maps. Why do we need highly complex maps where you basically need to rr through a cavern to get a cr8. (I am myself a good rrer so I don't have a problem with it) But still can't get the reason. It makes no sense. Why are there maps where, even if you rope like a demigod, you can't possibly make it to the cr8 + attack. Have you ever noticed that lower skilled people usually ALWAYS pick harder maps? Not because they are more funnier, it's just so they have a higher chance of cr8 rape. When I hosted ropers I made maps that were fairly low, not that complex and I usually won them or lost because I f@#!ed up.

And Avi, you talk about w2 scheme and stuff, I have played w2 ropers, even ladder and almost all maps were really easy. And that's why in w2 the land was destructable, because it didn't matter if land got destroyed as the map itself was already easy. I have a w2 rope mappack and there is maximum 1-2 hard maps where I would say, ok there it could be possible not to get cr8 + attack.

Old players knew what is right, easier maps mean less cr8 rape. The solution is so easy, yet so less see it.

Most people blame the maps, pixel here, pixel there. f@#!ing hide, etc. and what do people change? The scheme/rules... yeah right wake up. ^^

It's basically like when we are playing on flat maps bng and people complain about straight zook shots, what will they do? Add a rule don't straight zook instead of changing map.

And another thing, check all the very old competitive players, Jmoberg and his rival hamster. both players would nowadays suck ass because the maps are totally uncommon for them. And warmer maps were the same, open no weird cavern RR style. why would you warm on maps when in reality you rope on 3x harder maps, makes no sense. It's basically when you train for a 45 sec RR maps and practise on something like 20sec map. I remember back in the days (WL, Cl2k) it was normal for ropers to use maps from SfX, and they were so open and yet so fair. I don't remember any cr8 rape. If you were a top roper you could do any cr8 + attack.

fact is, back in the days there existed almost no cr8 rape. The technical thing added to Ropers added cr8 luck. People added more land, weird caverns and that shit to maps to make it interesting, that is right it is more interesting. But it is NOT useful to get rid of cr8 rape.

Another thing what I wanted to say is, basically most people believe the easier the map the higher the chances for a newb to win the match. Well if that would be the case newbs would win easy RR maps. Like 20sec turners. But that is not the case. And the same would happen for easier roper maps. Hell I would say even if you make 2 plain Hills in a map with almost zero obstacles still 99% of the time the more skilled roper will win...

And more fall damage like in w2 would add skill. in w2 if you messed up it was basically a GG, you could get up to 100 dmg if you naded someone well. And even if you hit someone on the bottom you could do a lot more dmg than you can with W:A scheme. That and waterdrop (another thing totally senseless added to the roper scheme in W:A in my opinion) should be changed.

Well I think that's enough for now, that's how I would get rid of cr8 luck. Just another scheme without looking at the source of the problem isn't doing good.

Last but not least, your w2 scheme ported to W:A added wind luck since zooka is the most powerful attack in your scheme. There are also impossible zooka shots with certain hides/wind so another luck factor added to the already existing cr8 luck. In worms2 the nade was the best. Zooka only if time ran out or hide was too hard for a decent nade so you simply destroyed the hide. -.-

I am pro w2 ropers. But at least port it 1:1. same scheme, same maps, same fd same weapon priority.

Whatever will be done, I hope it is at least fun. :p

P.S.: I would rather lose to someone who roped perfect (no fall, good attacks, fd) than to one f@#!ing cr8 that dropped in a hell of a cavern on the other island EVEN if I know the other player can't rope that well.

Thank you Kai, and I couldn't agree more with everything you said...

I am in favour of backtracking maps, not updating schemes...

It's the generation ttrr, when I was in SfX, sometimes in clanners it was even said, Map's too high, please reduce height. It was not uncommon to do Powerspikes in serious ropers, you had the room, VolcoM, SupremE (Makaveli the german one), Jmoberg and many more had awesome power spikes which they even used in league games. How many power spikers have we left? 0, maybe once in a lifetime someone does them but they disappeared long long time ago in clanners. You could cross the map within 4 seconds, do a powerspike. Get back up and still have about 3-4 seconds left even if the cr8 was at the possible worst position on the map. And there were people that could do that every turn, it was pure skill. Now you see people lurking on the map (compared to older maps). The generation ttrr (it began with the rise of ttrr, rr30seconds/45 it was still good) brought a lot of cr8 luck to the maps. It seems most map makers want to create maps where there are:

1. Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects. (cr8 luck depends on the room there is inbweteen the land for cr8s, it's totally unnecessary)
2. A f@#!ing thousand hides with basically zero use in a real roper. (Why offer 15 useless hides when only one good hide is used; instead create 2-3 good ones on each side of the map) less possibly cr8 rape. fabrousse maps for example are not that high, but have a thousand hides. You think someone with a chainsaw randomly went through the map just to make hides with no real purpose.
3. Destroy the fluent creation of the map by the editor. Why the f@#! do people need to change so much in the map editor. It creates pixels, looks shitty and most of the time you can't improve an already good map. If a map is crap in the map editor you can't edit it to be good. If a map is good in the map editor leave it how it is. 1-2 hides on the left side, 1-2 in the middle and 1-2 good hides on the right. You don't need more, get it! You can leave the island alone, yeah the big land. No you don't need to make a lot of tiny holes, and you don't need to add a few torch like passages...

Sometimes I think the map would work perfectly for an elite map. So much caverns and hides, just awesome. If your map is capable of being an elite map it's a fail map.

Maybe I will post some randomly generated maps that, in my opinion, would certainly suit well for a roper match. Maybe even show some maps that are totally stupid to rope on to clarify what I want to express.

Over the time the maps got harder, if we would need something to change it's the turn time. 15 seconds are on some hardcore maps not even enough to make it to a crate on the same island. (You hide deep in the left side of the left island, cr8 is right side deep into the left island. If you use elite maps then at least use elite turn timer. j/k

But I guess people are too used to this new kind of roping. (rr like)

Edit: Maybe it's generation elite, elite was not that popular years ago, by the look of some maps they are def. generation elite. xD There are maximum 4 worms in a roper, I'd say 8 hides maximum are well enough (if you decide not to pile). But what do we have? 20 hides +..... 20+ chances of cr8 rape. Smart map creation that is yup yup... -.-

Sorry for doublepost but I don't want to create so many wall of texts.

My idea of hides on each island side:

General: A good hide should always have 1-2 positive effect and at least 1 negative effect. If a hide only has positive effects for the one hiding in it it will be abused.

Hide #1: Easy to knock worm, easy to attack without knock, hard to do fall damage. "Good for beginning of the match"
Hide #2: Hard to knock worm, easy or medium to attack without knock, but if you are a skilled knocker you can make easy fd to your opponent 50-55. "Beginning of match or midgame"
Hide #3: Hard to knock worm, hard to attack without knock, but if you knock you do fd it's 65+; would be in upper Part of the island. "Best for situations when you have low health so you need to avoid an attack"

This should be on left/right side.

On top of each island a little hide with a little risk of getting FD for the winning worm when it's near the end with a quite huge advantage.

That's it, noone can tell me someone can create 20+ hides that have a pattern, a purpose. They are just made for the love of making hides. When I pick maps out of the map editor I don't look how complex the map is, I look out for fair hides and fair map flow. (No bottleneck where you need to rr up)

really, we have so many creative map makers in the community. Has never anyone of you thought about defeating cr8 luck by making fair roper maps? I mean you know the problem, you know how you can reduce cr8 luck, why is noone attempting it? Stop making millions of RR maps. Make 50-100 ownage roper maps with fair hides, no pixels, a nice flow, and try to reduce cr8 luck to zero. (cr8 drops that are really impossible) You don't even need to be a good roper to know when a map has spots where you cant get cr8 + attack. :O

We can decide where the cr8s have to drop, the engine just randomly chooses one place. So we need to reduce the place for the cr8s that are too hard for 15 seconds. We can guide the engine to the places we want it to drop.

Let's stop being the slaves of the engine! Lets rise against the engine! xD

this game will never evolve into anything other then what it is now.... because you, and others think the steps to take in order to fix the problems are easy maps? lmfao...


i guess thats ur opinion, but damn... how silly is it to downgrade the maps we play on, rather then upgrade your scheme??


if ur windows vista runs slow on ur PC, should u downgrade your windows? or upgrade ur PC? haha


but whatever, w2roper is already on tus.. so we can stop the debate...

avirex, anubis is right though, it's got ridiculous, and fixing the maps is obviously the better choice because it has already been proven to work in the past, no scheme will fix these maps...

yes, in the past when u were all trying to learn to shadow, it worked great... if u want an evolution the only solution evolve.... only solution evolve....


and komo, just because u agree with somone, does not make them right... somtimes u forget that

Anu has very good points, yes it may be because im shit but it's much more fun to rope with some space heh and yes crate rape is also decreased and solid consistant roping with an eye to get the most damage possible is rewarded.