Game #243426, reported by Wolfgang

Aladdin · August 07, 2024, 09:58 PM

Please put SD in BNG scheme!

Wolfgang · August 08, 2024, 12:10 AM

Quote from: Aladdin on August 07, 2024, 09:58 PMPlease put SD in BNG scheme!

hahaha yea, was a good game indeed

Kaleu · August 08, 2024, 12:42 AM

nice 3v3 series

TheWalrus · August 08, 2024, 03:07 AM

yea we should do more of these

TheKomodo · August 08, 2024, 06:52 AM

Quote from: Aladdin on August 07, 2024, 09:58 PMPlease put SD in BNG scheme!

SD is in BnG scheme though, it's set to 30 minutes, but when it happens, nothing really happens lol.

Just a change of background animation and different music.

FoxHound · August 08, 2024, 10:17 PM

I do not appreciate BnG, so I'm not an authority to say a solid opinion. However, as a scheme enthusiast, I think that if we ever add a real Sudden Death to BnG, it has to be the nuke one. Not sure the value, though. Since v3.8, we can set the value of the nuke. It could be a relatively early Sudden Dearh with small damage per turn or a late sudden death with a decent damage per turn.

In my opinion BnG games can take an eternity to end specially when there are newbies playing (like me - wtf is BnG?). So I'm in favor to implement Sudden Death. Even pros playing miss many shots. It's boring to espectate most of BnG streams, I'd say.

Although this would remove that vibe of going until the end, until hit enough damage or plop worms.

The best board games and electronic games have mechanisms to avoid eternal games or mechanisms that force engagement (avoid darksiding). In Age of Empires 2, the Wonder building makes pressure to a player attack otherwise it will loose. In Bomberman, we have sudden death that forces players to go to the center of the map until everyone is killed.

Worms Armageddon has multiple Sudden Deaths options. BnG is not a race. It should receive the Nuke. Worms will still stay with at least 1HP, so the final shot is still needed to win the game.

Monopoly sucks in Board Game Geek rank (26772) of board games because it is very unbalanced, based in a lot of luck, a lot of snowballing is likely to happen and the most important thing: it's endless to the point that players start to f@#! up the game and don't take it seriously. The true representation of capitalism. A meme board game.

BnG without SD is following Monopoly's reputation in my opinion.

Edit: another possibility is that we could just make less starting health to worms, for quicker games.

TheKomodo · August 08, 2024, 11:14 PM

Sorry FoxHound I couldn't disagree anymore if I tried lol.

BnG is a VERY high skill level scheme to master, you can't go ruining it for those who play it properly just to make noobs happy.

I always have and likely always will be able to finish 1v1 matches within 10 minutes most games, a long game for me is 20 minutes max.

Even Rocket, Sensei, TheWalrus, and a few others are finishing their games fairly quickly as well when they play seriously, and back in the day when there were way more players it wasn't as long either.

The point is, you should learn to get good at the game, not make the game less challenging for noobs.

Though, there could be the OPTION to choose to play with SD for those who are noobs but you've got to take into account turn rotation, you could be far ahead, get nuked, both on 1hp, they get first turn, and kill you... Now if you ask me, that's just plain dumb not to mention very unfair.

FoxHound · August 08, 2024, 11:31 PM

So, if 20 minutes are the longest games, you, the BnG authority take, then Sudden Death could start in 20 minutes with a decent damage to players. If the game takes more than this is because players suck or they are playing very bad or they are darksiding way too much. You can say 1HP is unfair, but CWT uses it since always and most normal players knows about it and play with it in mind. Most of them prefer 1HP SD. I hate 1 hp sudden death, but I play Intermediate, because it's part of it. The same way it's part of Alt-F4. It completely changes gameplay and the situation. It is less predictable and put players under pressure.

If we think SD is unfair it shouldn't even exist in Worms. Devs created because game length is more important than fairness. No matter how fair a game is nobody likes to play a game that takes 8h+ of gameplay.

I feel this with some racing maps too. No matter how good is a scheme or the map, if it's too long it becomes boring. People don't like this. With 1 BnG game you could play 10 Aerial games. Or more.

TheKomodo · August 08, 2024, 11:41 PM

We prefer quality over quantity.

CWT has absolutely NOTHING to do with BnG here. That is a very bad example.

It's not that SD is unfair, I did not say that generally, I said 20 minutes is ridiculous and it's unfair in THIS context for BnG. There is no issue with the scheme, the issue is the lack of interest from players to actually get good at it.

As I've already stated we could add an OPTIONAL SD alternative IF both players agree, but if there are any players who disagree then the default must be used.

Also I didn't say SD is unfair in general, it's just dumb and generates pointless RnG in my opinion. Also, most "noobs" aren't even going to pick BnG.

Also, when you play TTRR against a noob who takes 200s to finish a 40s map, we have to sit back and just watch it, we aren't forcing some kind of rule to prevent that.

I don't even think it's the time that bores people, it's a general issue I see in todays society when people expect everything at their fingertips and most aren't willing to get good at the schemes that take the most skill to learn.

People play Team17(because you can win even if you suck), people play Intermediate because even if you lose you get to blow stuff up and kill some worms which does at least feel good. People play Kaos because it's fun to do combo shots etc. When I say people I mean beginners pick up these schemes easier than BnG, Big RR and TTRR, as well as others because they are easier to learn and more fun for casual players.

BnG, TTRR, Big RR, those are schemes for hardcore players. Remember, this is a League, for the best of the best to compete, it's not a daycare center for noobs.

TheWalrus · August 08, 2024, 11:48 PM

1 hp SD would be insane and make the time that happens before it pointless lol

FoxHound · August 09, 2024, 12:15 AM

So, BnG is a sport like Baseball that the longest game took 8h and 25 minutes or Tennis that had games of 7h of duration.

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world (Godmax knows this very well) and the games have 90 minutes of duration with some extra time due to game pauses. The Sudden Death of soccer is the Penalties. Penalties are fair? Surely not. Tie-breaks are fair? Usually not. But, sometimes they are full of emotion (like penalties) and at least they end the game and decide a winner. It is easier to prepare and organize events of soccer than Tennis or Baseball. It's good to have a notion. BnG can be very quick or take ages.

I just wanted to brainstorm some ideas. If BnG players prefer without SD, like it is, well let it be the way it is. Probably, for a non-BnG player, playing it is a torture, long torture that will most likely become a free win.

TheKomodo · August 09, 2024, 12:23 AM

What Walrus said, SD in BnG makes the pre-SD gameplay pointless a bit.

Or instead of SD you could just agree to play with 100hp or something.

BnG is like real life Darts, it's about power accuracy consistency and it takes a very long time to hit all your shots like throwing darts at doubles, trebles and bullseyes. Like any serious sport or game it takes thousands of hours to truly master.

I actually started playing Darts with a local pub, I haven't played Darts since my Dad was Gary Andersons partner, so I'm a bit rubbish right now, that doesn't mean I get special treatment or we take away the need to check out with a double or anything.

Sometimes it feels like people just want an easy life, they want to change the game to make the game easier to play rather than respect the game and learn it the challenging time consuming way like the pros did.

FoxHound · August 09, 2024, 12:47 AM

Another possibility for BnG could be the type of SD that ends the game.

After 20 minutes, SD will end the game and the player with more HP wins. If both have the same HP, it would be rare, but it could receive a form to decide the winner. Or consider a draw. Or just count an equal number of turns for both players.

This would limit the game by time.

Kaleu · August 09, 2024, 01:38 AM

Quote from: FoxHound on August 09, 2024, 12:47 AMAnother possibility for BnG could be the type of SD that ends the game.

After 20 minutes, SD will end the game and the player with more HP wins. If both have the same HP, it would be rare, but it could receive a form to decide the winner. Or consider a draw. Or just count an equal number of turns for both players.

This would limit the game by time.

This is definitely a good solution for long matches. As much as I believe we're just problematizing something unnecessary at the moment, I'd like to see something like this implemented. This shouldn't be a problem or a concern for good players anyway.

Now the hard part, we just need to agree on when a match becomes long. How many minutes? 1 hour? 1 hour and a half?

Korydex · August 09, 2024, 05:03 AM

Quote from: TheWalrus on August 08, 2024, 11:48 PM1 hp SD would be insane and make the time that happens before it pointless lol

What about just a slowest running water like in Mole? Atleast it will be guaranteed to end at some point

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Game #243426, reported by Wolfgang, Viewed 1058 Time(s)

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