Creating very tough roper maps is like creating w12w-s or 8000x8000+ shopper maps. It's not the scheme's fault, but the people's who love to exceed the borders. Don't want to get crateraped? Grab a map where you can rope smoothly, and voilá! No crate rape anymore. Don't complain about getting wet after jumping into the river. I agree with Anubis and Komo.

Oh my... I cringed when I read anubis describing the amount of hides and quality of hides should be on a map...  Players use the best 1 or 2 hides on a map all game, I just you want to make it more obvious which hides those are by limiting the amount... Tell me what is so fun about mindlessly fetching crates and returning to the same hide all game? Especially on one of these god forsaken miracle maps you guys preach about?  Sounds like the most boring game of my life, if you ask me.  

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
Hell I would say even if you make 2 plain Hills in a map with almost zero obstacles still 99% of the time the more skilled roper will win...

You mean 99% of the time whoever goes first will win?

Quote from: Komo on August 21, 2010, 05:25 PM
avirex, anubis is right though, it's got ridiculous, and fixing the maps is obviously the better choice because it has already been proven to work in the past, no scheme will fix these maps...

If you want to talk about the past, why do you not mention how w2 evolved their roping scheme over the years?
No scheme will fix the maps?  Make me the hardest roper map you can make, and w2roper will "fix" it... if you want to know how it "fixes" it, read the countless number of points and arguments we have made in this thread, or play the scheme.

From what I'm reading, you guys want roper to be played on some marshmallow and cupcake map, with one or two hides being used the whole game, and where not a shred of tactical thinking comes into play... Because if you ask me, ANY scheme which requires killing a worm has to have tactics to it.

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 02:13 PM


1. Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects. (cr8 luck depends on the room there is inbweteen the land for cr8s, it's totally unnecessary)
2. A f@#!ing thousand hides with basically zero use in a real roper. (Why offer 15 useless hides when only one good hide is used; instead create 2-3 good ones on each side of the map) less possibly cr8 rape. fabrousse maps for example are not that high, but have a thousand hides. You think someone with a chainsaw randomly went through the map just to make hides with no real purpose.

Would you not agree that rr is one of the best ways to show off your roping abilities and skill?  So why not implement that into A ROPING SCHEME?  w2roper allows you to play on these "Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects",  you aren't forced to get the crate... but the more skilled you are at roping in this environment, the more likely you will be able to get further crates and attack.  If you are truly a better roper than your opponent, then your crate length span should be larger than his, thus making true skill pay off.

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
Another thing what I wanted to say is, basically most people believe the easier the map the higher the chances for a newb to win the match. Well if that would be the case newbs would win easy RR maps. Like 20sec turners. But that is not the case.

Every time you come up with a scenario, you compare a pro with a noob, which is why your arguments and points are so convoluted and just plain out wrong.  You don't tus someone nowadays that totally has no rhythm at roping or idea what they are doing, except for a few exceptions... those of which you shouldn't have a problem with anyway...

w2roper was made so the more skilled player could win more often than not... For example, dibz could be playing alcoholico at a regular roper... dibz is a much more skilled and distinguished roper than alcoholico, but alcoholico is still good at roping... he can go and fetch crates just like anyone else who knows how to use a rope...  What roper today was doing, was allowing the alcoholicos of ropers win against the dibzes because of bad crate drops.  Period.  There are no tactics, no chance for one another to outsmart each other for an edge. Period.  If you had these 2 play on your plain, lower, wide roper maps for 100 matches, I am betting you the score would be closer to 50-50 than what w2roper has to offer.  The better roper and better strategist will be able to win more often than not. Period.

Anubis, it is true if you play a noob at a 20 second turner, it won't be easier to win... but only because HE IS A NOOB.  I know from experience the wider the rr map gets, the closer the times become when two good ropers are playing.  The tighter the map gets, the bigger the gaps become.  A time of 50 vs a time of 52 on an AZ01 map, for example, does not show much... but if you took those same ropers and put them on a tighter qp map, the difference would be greater.  

Quote from: CMV on August 21, 2010, 07:57 PM
Creating very tough roper maps is like creating w12w-s or 8000x8000+ shopper maps. It's not the scheme's fault, but the people's who love to exceed the borders. Don't want to get crateraped? Grab a map where you can rope smoothly, and voilá! No crate rape anymore. Don't complain about getting wet after jumping into the river. I agree with Anubis and Komo.

I don't like wxw, w4w, w8w, w12w, etc, at all, but what you are saying is that you want one of those wide maps with at most 4 walls with no hides... They are all over the place, and they take 2 minutes to make in ms paint... enjoy roping around 8 lines connected to each other

guess there is not much more to say.. lol

I guess these hard maps had been made for players who wanna improve their skills.
And there come back the "I wanna have fun and be better" and "I wanna win, even letting a arm".

On a side, you'll like to play on some kinds of maps for some reasons.
On the other side, it's all the contrary.

As long as there will be those 2 sides, it will be impossible for everybody to be happy.

Dunno how to make this quote look good so I will use this as my response xD.

Quote from: ShyGuy on August 21, 2010, 08:27 PM
Oh my... I cringed when I read anubis describing the amount of hides and quality of hides should be on a map...  Players use the best 1 or 2 hides on a map all game, I just you want to make it more obvious which hides those are by limiting the amount... Tell me what is so fun about mindlessly fetching crates and returning to the same hide all game? Especially on one of these god forsaken miracle maps you guys preach about?  Sounds like the most boring game of my life, if you ask me.  

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
Hell I would say even if you make 2 plain Hills in a map with almost zero obstacles still 99% of the time the more skilled roper will win...

You mean 99% of the time whoever goes first will win?

No I mean that the one using the weapons better will win. People actually try to make roper another RR. Well believe me or not but 5 years + ago I was a shitty RR but still managed to be extremely good in Ropers. A good Roper was capable of: Never fall, always get cr8 + attack, most of the time you could do fd to a worm even though it was hiding on the bottom of the map. Nowadays most map don't allow you to do cr8 + attack because it's impossible, would you TTRR where it is impossible to get through a part? I would not. And don't tell me that's because of the evolution of wormers, I was one of the wormers that evolved so fast and I didn't like RR although I was good at the ropes. Most NBR (cept volrin, wargod) guys weren't THAT good at RR but owned at roper. It used to be 2 different things. We had ownage RR and we had ownage Ropers. People made maps closer to RR or tighter/harder so people that are good at ropers now are even good at RR and vice versa. Thats WRONG!!! The schemes/maps should encourage you to rope different to start with. You should feel good at roper or good at rr not both at the same time if you havn't practised both schemes.

Quote from: Komo on August 21, 2010, 05:25 PM
avirex, anubis is right though, it's got ridiculous, and fixing the maps is obviously the better choice because it has already been proven to work in the past, no scheme will fix these maps...

If you want to talk about the past, why do you not mention how w2 evolved their roping scheme over the years?
No scheme will fix the maps?  Make me the hardest roper map you can make, and w2roper will "fix" it... if you want to know how it "fixes" it, read the countless number of points and arguments we have made in this thread, or play the scheme.

From what I'm reading, you guys want roper to be played on some marshmallow and cupcake map, with one or two hides being used the whole game, and where not a shred of tactical thinking comes into play... Because if you ask me, ANY scheme which requires killing a worm has to have tactics to it.

I have played w2 scheme, like I have said I have played w2 ladders, even got up to top10.  Ah btw: The reason w2scheme has lower turn timer isn't even mentioned here. It's not because people couldn't set 15, or 14. But the maps they use + the a lot faster roping you have in w2 due the engine made the w2 scheme have less seconds. And the reason we have 15 seconds is because simply in early days before patch x.x W:A were not able to set 12-13 seconds.

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 02:13 PM

1. Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects. (cr8 luck depends on the room there is inbweteen the land for cr8s, it's totally unnecessary)
2. A f@#!ing thousand hides with basically zero use in a real roper. (Why offer 15 useless hides when only one good hide is used; instead create 2-3 good ones on each side of the map) less possibly cr8 rape. fabrousse maps for example are not that high, but have a thousand hides. You think someone with a chainsaw randomly went through the map just to make hides with no real purpose.

Would you not agree that rr is one of the best ways to show off your roping abilities and skill?  So why not implement that into A ROPING SCHEME?  w2roper allows you to play on these "Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects",  you aren't forced to get the crate... but the more skilled you are at roping in this environment, the more likely you will be able to get further crates and attack.  If you are truly a better roper than your opponent, then your crate length span should be larger than his, thus making true skill pay off.

Yes, it's a good way to show RR skills, but it shouldn't be implemented in Roper because it should be a different scheme, not a rr with cr8s. And I have already said in my initial post: I am pro w2scheme, but use the exact same scheme, your scheme currently has some flaws that could be fixed by using the official w2 scheme.

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
Another thing what I wanted to say is, basically most people believe the easier the map the higher the chances for a newb to win the match. Well if that would be the case newbs would win easy RR maps. Like 20sec turners. But that is not the case.

Every time you come up with a scenario, you compare a pro with a noob, which is why your arguments and points are so convoluted and just plain out wrong.  You don't tus someone nowadays that totally has no rhythm at roping or idea what they are doing, except for a few exceptions... those of which you shouldn't have a problem with anyway...

w2roper was made so the more skilled player could win more often than not... For example, dibz could be playing alcoholico at a regular roper... dibz is a much more skilled and distinguished roper than alcoholico, but alcoholico is still good at roping... he can go and fetch crates just like anyone else who knows how to use a rope...  What roper today was doing, was allowing the alcoholicos of ropers win against the dibzes because of bad crate drops.  Period.  There are no tactics, no chance for one another to outsmart each other for an edge. Period.  If you had these 2 play on your plain, lower, wide roper maps for 100 matches, I am betting you the score would be closer to 50-50 than what w2roper has to offer.  The better roper and better strategist will be able to win more often than not. Period.

Anubis, it is true if you play a noob at a 20 second turner, it won't be easier to win... but only because HE IS A NOOB.  I know from experience the wider the rr map gets, the closer the times become when two good ropers are playing.  The tighter the map gets, the bigger the gaps become.  A time of 50 vs a time of 52 on an AZ01 map, for example, does not show much... but if you took those same ropers and put them on a tighter qp map, the difference would be greater.  

Maybe I put the wrong term, I didn't want to say newbs, I just wanted to express lower skilled ropers than the current bext ropers. So sorry for that missinformation. I still believe the more skilled roper will win vs. a lower skilled roper when maps are a lot easier. Currently the lower skilled roper can win vs. the higher skilled one. (W:A Roper is still the offical one if both parties don't agree on (w2)roper scheme.

And why the f@#! have you changed the official w2 scheme! You talk about tactics yet you get rid of destructable land, that part made it a lot more tactical than your crippled w2 scheme!

Quote from: CMV on August 21, 2010, 07:57 PM
Creating very tough roper maps is like creating w12w-s or 8000x8000+ shopper maps. It's not the scheme's fault, but the people's who love to exceed the borders. Don't want to get crateraped? Grab a map where you can rope smoothly, and voilá! No crate rape anymore. Don't complain about getting wet after jumping into the river. I agree with Anubis and Komo.

I don't like wxw, w4w, w8w, w12w, etc, at all, but what you are saying is that you want one of those wide maps with at most 4 walls with no hides... They are all over the place, and they take 2 minutes to make in ms paint... enjoy roping around 8 lines connected to each other

No, what CMV means is that you shouldn't try to make the hardest roper map on earth with a million obstacles and then complain it's the scheme fault. The map makers try to bend the borders of whats possible but noone tests if it is actually possible and still the maps get used in LEAGUE games. BnG maps used to be shitty, but then people found a way to make even hides on both sides, BnG Maps sometimes had uneven hides, the team that started first got a better side and the match was over if the guys could play BnG well. Noone has ever thought about a standard for Roper maps. We even have a standard for TTRR maps, most maps are 40-55 in league matches. It's doable for everyone. I dont see 90+ seconds ultra tight maps which only 2-3 RRers can do well. We need something like that in ropers too.

And as final words:

We have fair maps, in TTRR, in BnG, in Elite. Why can't we have fair maps in Roper?

Just had a fun roper with dark and he took an usual map that is used for ropers. The map itself isn't that hard to rope on but when I saw the hides I was like WTF is this supposed to do good cept for cr8 rape. I will show you what I mean by putting worms into the hides/areas which are totally dumb and explain why.

Pause game after all worms have been placed.

Vader: Wtf is this? Noone will ever hide there, the chances of getting FD are immense and even zooking is easy as shit. Fill area with Land.

Baumwurzel: This hide would be an ok hide, it's not really the best but it would fit for a hide. You can easily attack the worm and doing FD is hard. (Remember 1 positive and 1 negative)

Behemoth: Ultra f@#!ing useless hide, easy FD, easy to attack and even easy to zook. Fill with land.

Astgeflecht: This hide is sweet for a 1st turn anti zook hide. After that is becomes useless due the high chance of FD and you can attack worm easily even without knock. Hide can stay because of its tactical anti zook.

Bolt Thrower: This hide is again very useless, easy knock, easy attack, high chances of FD. Fill with land.

Blumengestrüpp: WTF? Fill with land. It's just getting cr8s there.

Amon Amarth: The whole area down there is extremely bullshit and only does the thing we hate: drops of cr8s we can't possible make an attack after. The hide where the worm is standing is good, it should be transported to the left side to have at least 2 good hides on the left side.

Unterholz: All the 5 hides are useless, well the one above Unterholz is at least a tiny bit ok.

Looking at this map all I can see are 2, maximum 3 hides that are useful in a roper match, the rest is just space for cr8s that can rape you.

Shyguy: "If you want to talk about the past, why do you not mention how w2 evolved their roping scheme over the years?
No scheme will fix the maps?  Make me the hardest roper map you can make, and w2roper will "fix" it... if you want to know how it "fixes" it, read the countless number of points and arguments we have made in this thread, or play the scheme.

From what I'm reading, you guys want roper to be played on some marshmallow and cupcake map, with one or two hides being used the whole game, and where not a shred of tactical thinking comes into play... Because if you ask me, ANY scheme which requires killing a worm has to have tactics to it."

w2 has NOTHING to do with WA ropers, NOTHING, Yes, roping came from w2, but the 2 are TOTALLY different and shouldn't even be compared.

Now we have that out the way, sorry but w2Roper, doesn't fix anything, if you want to think it does, thats fair enough it's your opinion and I have my opinion.

I'll play 10 ropers with you, on maps of my kind, with the original scheme, and 10 ropers with you, on maps of your picking, with your scheme, and I bet, if we both rope consistent every game, the more consistent one of us will win MY VERSION more than they will win YOUR VERSION.

At the end of the day I don't really care, I don't have to play w2 Ropers in leagues so i'm happy, and if I decide to pick Roper, I can host with one of my maps, and the person who ropes better will win, and if I win, I will have some pride because it was skill, not crate luck, and if I lose, i'll be happy for the winner because he played better than me, and didn't win because of crates.

ur right komo... your absolutely right

[Offtopic]

Quote from: Komo on August 22, 2010, 04:51 AMand if I lose, i'll be happy for the winner because he played better than me, and didn't win because of crates.

Great to hear this.
[/Offtopic]

this is a fkn long ass thread but im understandin a lot of the first post etc... roper is broken in wa

here's another w2 inspired rope scheme that plays pretty much the same but u get more retreat

basics are:

• destructible terrain, best played with maps with thin boundarys so the map opens up as u play
• 10s turn time + 10s retreat
• no cba - same strategy as avis but this time u get time to attack and can get crate after attack
• no delay on weapons
• higher fd like w2 - u dont wanna fall + be careful of hiding on top

optionals:

• set sd to whatever u want
• water drop, dont matter on and off

same strategy in that u dont wanna hide close to ur opponent cos they get easy attack and 10s to rope to their crate

still ain't perfect scheme but plays fun and is more strategic than get crate (lucky) and hide close to opponent

see replay for example, watch in fast forward u can get the idea pretty quick (press 5 on ur keyboard)

ps. this scheme is better cos u dont have the same fkn hide all game. u can actually use the rest of the 85%+ of the map.

Couldn't agree more with Anubis.
Why do you think I made the 50 qp maps and the 15ish Magic maps?
Because that ever glorious moment when you get a league rr, and some dude picks a map that only he has ever RRed and guess what, it's a f@#!ing clusterf@#!. (Yes, 2 f@#!s)
Did you know a bad roper can beat you on his own special 8turn "pixel rope-snag hiding" map?
[important note: I prefer Herms more interesting maps. (Love his evils) but you cant do that to people in league.]

QP maps are the level playing field of RR
some 2 turn some 3ish and 3 of them are 30sec maps. noone gets badlucked.

Roper needs to be on level playing field maps.

"map too high" "to close to ceiling" pick again.
I remember Jmoberg and many more saying no to the bullshit.
Personally I can rope on either, but wont.
Make it fun, thats why we rope.

just read some of anubis old post.... 

anubis the purpose of making this "w2roper" scheme was to bring a better, more skill, more tactic scheme to w:a, i had to keep in mind how f@#!ing stubborn everyone is, and how they will do anything to resist change... so i knew drastic changes would not work... i tried to make a nice blend of both w2, and w:a schemes... i guess me calling it "w2roper" scheme was a mistake, because it threw many people off (that dont know any better) and said "wtf, thats not the official w2 roper scheme" 

well, maybe your memory is gone anubis, but w2 never had an official scheme, everyone played different, the higher ranked picked their scheme, and told their opponent the variations.... for example.. IRwlz played with 3 worms, whats official about that? some people played with no zooks, some played with no power weaps, some played with a f@#!ing super sheep, i played with an instant mine on the map ... so you tell me what is the official w2 scheme, and lets give it a try.

I won't read up on a thread already discussed to it's fullest 1 year and a half ago (my last post in 22 August 2011). Don't necro old threads lol.

you read... i dont blame you for not responding... just sick of people talking when thye dont know wth they talking about...

komo was notorious for it in this thread, and judging by this page (im not going to read back either) you contributed..

everyone was so against change, but truth be told any one that actually gave this scheme a half a chance said it was a HUGE improvement...

its a shame this game will never evolve passed the newb f@#!ing 15 second scheme you all learned to rope on... oh well.