Acceptable Input Devices (AIDS)!

[Mablak]

I just wanted to start a discussion about what sort of input devices, keyboards, gamepads, etc. are acceptable for worms, in terms of hardware as well as software. There's clearly been an evolution in what we deem permissible over the years. A decade ago, people would have scoffed at any form of external program, even the key remapping programs that a chunk of WN now uses. But there was a failure to codify that community consensus in any concrete way, so it's hardly surprising that the definition of cheating didn't remain static. If we want to cement our views on what is/isn't acceptable in WA, it helps to have an explicit set of rules that we can point to for future wormers.

I think we need to establish common ground in regards to the goal of this endeavor; the purpose of defining cheating is simply to make the community a better place. If rules are too lax, current players might leave, and a lot of future players might be deterred from coming to WA. I know that the prevalence of cheating has deterred me from several online games over the years. If the rules are too strict, and we decided that only one kind of keyboard was acceptable or something like that, well, no one would even pay attention to such a rule, and it might create unnecessary blame.

I think there are a number of facets of input devices that we have no reason to care about restricting.
-Sensitivity of buttons, for example, is something that varies from kb to kb; WA started out in a position of not caring about this. And if we were to establish restrictions on response time of keys, there still wouldn't be any easy way for a player to determine how sensitive his/her kb actually is.
-Placement of keys also seems like a trivial matter. If someone wanted to restrict where keys can and can't be placed, it would require quite a few arbitrary rules, like specifying the minimum distance between the spacebar and the f-keys. This would be an unnecessary complication, and we wouldn't be able to find common ground to begin with.
-Plurality of keys, though contested by some, should also be considered irrelevant as long as sensitivity is considered irrelevant. Finger rolling on a perfectly sensitive spacebar yields almost exactly the same results as finger rolling with two spaces, because you can't have the second space register while you're holding down the first. Moreover, allowing this seems to attract people to the game while hardly deterring anyone from leaving, it's hard to argue that it's not beneficial for the community. It's quite possible that some people are more capable of learning to rope this way, and would never have been able to get into roping with just one finger, since a number of people have made this claim.

And next, the things we should, and pretty thoroughly do, care about restricting:
-External programs that don't simply remap keys. I don't think anyone can point to a single external program that we really deem acceptable outside of key remapping. I'm guessing we're mostly in agreement on this. And if CS/DC decided to make remapping part of the game, we could just cleanly say that all external programs are forbidden.
-Single motions/presses that result in multiple inputs sent to WA. Anything external or internal that is a macro, or is macro-like in its consequences, clearly reduces skill in this game.

I'll just propose three rules to cover everything we generally consider unacceptable.
1. No playing with hardware that isn't button-based in nature. There needs to be some form of human pressing for every input you send to the game, except when it comes to cursor movement.
2. Any button you press must result in no more than one input into the game.
3. No using any programs that affect WA, except for key remappers.

Rule 1 could be seen as unnecessary, it's really just there in case someone invents a weird way of tapping that requires too little effort, like using a mouse wheel. Does anyone have any objections to these rules, or any features that should be added?

[Ray]

Well, the problem with all this - I didn't read your post, only the list and the first paragraph - is that you can never catch people using a not acceptable keyboard.

And, just for the record, how about disabled people? I'm not making fun here, I really do know someone playing worms who suffered cerebral haemorrhage at birth and his left side is disabled, I actually met him. Naturally, he cannot perform at the level any of us could under normal circumstances, that means he is unable to play this league?

How would you make up for that? By letting him not play schemes he is unable to play? How would you make people understand that and not simply quit on the guy? He wouldn't be able to play 80 games in a season as easily as we can.

Or would you make up for that by letting him use a program or a special keyboard? How do you measure what level of aid he deserves? Some people would start arguing that the aid he gets is too much and that now he has an advantage.

On top of that, how would you make sure that he really is handicapped and not making it up?

This was a real life example. What I'm trying to point out is that lately, I think the community is focusing on rules too detailed. I think most of the commonly accepted rules were absolutely self-explanatory and understandable and I don't understand where this over-detailing fashion is coming from.

I understand that some people - mostly newcomers - are trying to take advantage of the still very poorly written, overly-hidden rulebook, but is this the solution? I don't know.

[Husk]

just use a condom mate... I wish I remembered that before I got herpes in my dick

[OrangE]

let's speak clear. today the most used things by "cheaters" are: macros, autohotkey and uwt (or some other programs for roping that double your taps).

i think it would be not so hard to have the possibility to analyze replays and see if someone is using this stuff. i mean, its so obvious: if you use this shit your imputs will have some kind of regolarity and if we could analyze replays transforming them in some understandable strings, we could match those regularities. i know that this kind of thing is already possible to do, but only darkshadow(?) can do it, am i right? i'm not a pc nerd so i don't know how much this thing can be possible, of course we can't publish the way to decrypt replays or people would start to use it for cheating purposes. but i think this is the way we should go.

implementing some kind of anti-cheat would be great too. i know of lot of other games managed by passionate players that make their own anti-cheats for leagues.

any game of any type will ALWAYS have people that cheat. the only way to limit this behaviour would be to be able to PROVE they cheat. no other way i guess. establish rules is pointless and useless i think.

i mean i know of people using macros for bng too. it's not hard to catch them, you just have to watch at replays very carfully: identic shots, aim going straight to the perfect degree multiple times (lol), stuff like that. a way to PROVE this would be great.

[Mablak]

Well, the problem with all this - I didn't read your post, only the list and the first paragraph - is that you can never catch people using a not acceptable keyboard.

And, just for the record, how about disabled people? I'm not making fun here, I really do know someone playing worms who suffered cerebral haemorrhage at birth and his left side is disabled, I actually met him. Naturally, he cannot perform at the level any of us could under normal circumstances, that means he is unable to play this league?

How would you make up for that? By letting him not play schemes he is unable to play? How would you make people understand that and not simply quit on the guy? He wouldn't be able to play 80 games in a season as easily as we can.

Or would you make up for that by letting him use a program or a special keyboard? How do you measure what level of aid he deserves? Some people would start arguing that the aid he gets is too much and that now he has an advantage.

On top of that, how would you make sure that he really is handicapped and not making it up?

This was a real life example. What I'm trying to point out is that lately, I think the community is focusing on rules too detailed. I think most of the commonly accepted rules were absolutely self-explanatory and understandable and I don't understand where this over-detailing fashion is coming from.

I understand that some people - mostly newcomers - are trying to take advantage of the still very poorly written, overly-hidden rulebook, but is this the solution? I don't know.

Of course someone with a handicap would deserve to be able to play with something that can get them closer to equal footing with the rest of us. If they needed some kind of unconventional input device that isn't button-based, no big deal. Using macros would probably be going a bit far though, and I can't imagine someone being able to play, but being unable to get by without macros.

And newcomers probably aren't trying to take advantage of anything, they simply don't know what can and can't be used. I don't think this is a major problem in the short term, but if we ever managed to get a big influx of newcomers again, it would only help to have guidelines they can look at. None of this stuff is self-explanatory.

Also, if we ever wanted to have some kind of live tourney, either in person or with webcams showing each player, it would help to have these guidelines known beforehand. Someone could construct a hardware version of a double tap macro, so surely it's at least worth mentioning this stuff. And the current rules do cover programs, but they only say, "Cheating by any program is highly forbidden", so it's not even clear if key remappers are allowed. Might as well specify this stuff better.

[Mablak]

let's speak clear. today the most used things by "cheaters" are: macros, autohotkey and uwt (or some other programs for roping that double your taps).

i think it would be not so hard to have the possibility to analyze replays and see if someone is using this stuff. i mean, its so obvious: if you use this shit your imputs will have some kind of regolarity and if we could analyze replays transforming them in some understandable strings, we could match those regularities. i know that this kind of thing is already possible to do, but only darkshadow(?) can do it, am i right? i'm not a pc nerd so i don't know how much this thing can be possible, of course we can't publish the way to decrypt replays or people would start to use it for cheating purposes. but i think this is the way we should go.

implementing some kind of anti-cheat would be great too. i know of lot of other games managed by passionate players that make their own anti-cheats for leagues.

any game of any type will ALWAYS have people that cheat. the only way to limit this behaviour would be to be able to PROVE they cheat. no other way i guess. establish rules is pointless and useless i think.

i mean i know of people using macros for bng too. it's not hard to catch them, you just have to watch at replays very carfully: identic shots, aim going straight to the perfect degree multiple times (lol), stuff like that. a way to PROVE this would be great.

Maybe we can get CS to comment in this thread, I dunno. But there are keyboards with macro functionality built in, so we have to go past just talking about programs and talk about hardware too. And establishing these rules isn't pointless at all, it would only seem pointless if you thought they were already established. They kind of are, but not as well as they could be.

[Impossible]

2. Any button you press must result in no more than one input into the game.

when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd

[Aerox]

but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria

Yes, of course.

Anyway, no roping marco or software up to the date has enhanced roping to the point one can be better than he already is. All they offer is little quality of life improvements. Who needs more than 1 input for Space? What does that help him do? If he is throwing inputs on top of inputs, what does it matter? virtually and by definition (an input on top of another) cannot be controled and the only thing he is achieving with a macro is random tap burts that he might think look good, but looks is all they offer.

It saddens me to see so many people complaining about the use of cheats in schemes when they're equally beatable and these so called cheats are not getting them anywhere. Or am I missing something and mm, CF, CKC and cfc are full of cheaters?

[Mablak]

2. Any button you press must result in no more than one input into the game.

when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd

I highly doubt anywhere near that many people use macros in hysteria, but yeah, another reason for me to not take that scheme seriously. Already forbidden by the rules though, hopefully no one actually thinks they're justified in doing that >_>.

[OrangE]

Maybe we can get CS to comment in this thread, I dunno.

that would be great.

But there are keyboards with macro functionality built in, so we have to go past just talking about programs and talk about hardware too. And establishing these rules isn't pointless at all, it would only seem pointless if you thought they were already established. They kind of are, but not as well as they could be.

well, macros are software based. my logitech g110 has macros and they are managed by the Logitech Gaming Software. Without that software they doesn't work, of course. Btw i keep saying that establishing rules isn't enough. Having a good anti-cheat system that could prove someone is using a software to take advantage in game would be perfect.

[Aerox]

Maybe we can get CS to comment in this thread, I dunno.

that would be great.

But there are keyboards with macro functionality built in, so we have to go past just talking about programs and talk about hardware too. And establishing these rules isn't pointless at all, it would only seem pointless if you thought they were already established. They kind of are, but not as well as they could be.

well, macros are software based. my logitech g110 has macros and they are managed by the Logitech Gaming Software. Without that software they doesn't work, of course. Btw i keep saying that establishing rules isn't enough. Having a good anti-cheat system that could prove someone is using a software to take advantage in game would be perfect.

I have a keyboard with a built in turbo button that works and I never installed any software (and drivers installed on plug in, anyway)

[Guaton]

when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd

oh , so thats how hysteria players can do jetpack+LG+Punch all of that while they're flying , i spossed that there was something else behind those players , cos that mix is f@#!ing impossible to do lol

[Gabriel]

when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd

oh , so thats how hysteria players can do jetpack+LG+Punch all of that while they're flying , i spossed that there was something else behind those players , cos that mix is f@#!ing impossible to do lol

I can record myself doing it.
Its not that hard like it seems :s
And I dont cheat.

[Husk]

yeah...the hysteria mixes require alot of practice

example: I practiced alot with some extra weapons in hysteria and I learned to do jp + homing missile.

jp + lg + fp and jp + lg + nade is easy compared to jp + homing missile xD

[cOke]

yea the hyst combos are possible, i used to be able to do most of em

all about just practice so that you press the keys without thinking about it