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Author Topic: I am sick of tus schemes!  (Read 7988 times)

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Offline Spaazi

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 05:37 PM »
* Spaazi <3 FirstBlood :(

RIP.

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 05:57 PM »
Alternative shopper scheme: http://wormolympics.com/tournaments/download/269

FFie's been updating her shopper scheme, first used for wmdb tourneys.
Kiros once told me he used the wmdb scheme and had only slight alterations to make it the fb scheme.
Although there's always the on and off bl game, weapons are usually quite balanced

Offline darKz

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2010, 06:07 PM »
I said that a while ago, but I'll repeat it once again: That (ex-) WMDB scheme is the best and most balanced I ever played.
I remember knowing who it was but dont remember exactly what I knew
~ Dubc 2010

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2010, 09:20 PM »
I agree, some of the schemes need tweaked. 

Shoppa

Wooka's scheme actually looks pretty nice, except the fire punch, dragonball, and maybe the percentage of bats you can get.  Realistically, who ever wants to get a crate and get a fire punch or dragonball?

I said that a while ago, but I'll repeat it once again: That (ex-) WMDB scheme is the best and most balanced I ever played.

I'll have to disagree with you here if you are talking about the shoppa scheme D1 just posted.

I don't know if anyone knows this, but when you have a scheme with pairs of weapons like grenade & HHG, homing missile & pigeon, uzi & minigun, and mine & dynamite, it increases the crate luck... it is just common sense.  You could get a homing missile, and your opponent a pigeon... why implement pretty much similar weapons that differ with damage?   You have to settle with one or the other in the weapon pairs I listed, otherwise you will always have more crate luck.  I see in that wmdb scheme they have nades & hhg, homing missile & pigeon, and mine & dynamite...  That is just begging for more luck in the scheme.

I know you guys will dispute that nades can have its advantages over hhgs and whatnot, but once again, realistically, you would always rather get a hhg in a crate than nades, etc etc etc.  Also, I see Mad Cows as more crate luck... why should someone be able to launch 3 sheep-caliber weapons in one turn just because that player picked up a random crate?

If you really want fair crates in shoppa, you need to eliminate some weapons... the more weapon diversity, the more crate luck come into play... the less crate diversity, the better chance of getting balanced weapons between you and your opponent.


Team17

One of my biggest problems with default schemes today is that the mindset seems to be every default scheme (besides bng) needs to be blessed with random oil or mines or both in order to be sanctified... this seems completely ridiculous to me.  At most, the random oil and mines only have an argument at elite, because you can place your worms.  In t17, you cannot place your worms, there is no rule against attacking the first turn, and there are random oil barrels on the map... This screams first turn advantage in some cases.  Once again, why are we allowing the game take control of our destiny when we don't have to?  That isn't the only thing about barrels...

If a crate lands on the edge of the map, either top or bottom, and your opponent already has a worm covering the area, then hopefully you will not decide to get the crate, unless you don't care about getting shot off the side of the map.  The same applies for crates that land near oil (I'm talking early game, by the way).  If a crate randomly drops near a randomly placed oil drum with a randomly placed enemy worm already covering the land, then you probably won't get the crate, and there is nothing you can do about it... It is just bad luck... bad luck wormers refuse to correct because oil drums in t17 are "classic".  You don't know what that crate could have been... It could have been something like a worm select or freeze... but you'll never know unless you are willing to sacrifice high damage to your worm to take a gamble on a crate.  The oil drums give distinct advantages to a person who got lucky random placings. 

As for weapons, as I always say, remove bananas, super bananas, vases, and army.  OHKO weapons like that do not take much skill to use effectively, and it is just luck in the first place that you got them.  I would also eliminate Patsy, since it doesn't even take a brain to aim and hit with.  Once again, this is a luck factor that we can change if we think a little bit.  Weapons like earthquake and nuke should stay, because it actually takes some prep and tactics to pull off.  Often your opponent figures out you have one of these weapons, and they can act appropriately... When using EQ or Nuke, you can give off a lot of "tells" that help your opponent  figure out what you are trying to do... It takes intelligence to hide these "tells" and to spot them, so those weapons should stay because of the tactical value.

Eliminating the super duper OHKO weapons will put more emphasis on using your other weapons more creatively.  T17 is a scheme about weapons, and whoever can improvise with the weapons they achieve the best should win (nanas, vase, etc. don't take improvisation... they just kill so easily it is bs).


*puts the flame shield up*


  <-- my brain when I clan with avi

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2010, 09:30 PM »
Also, I see Mad Cows as more crate luck... why should someone be able to launch 3 sheep-caliber weapons in one turn just because that player picked up a random crate?

This tells me you never played with that scheme. Otherwise you would've known the cows have less power.

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2010, 09:32 PM »
I guess I stand corrected on that point... I was just looking at what you get in the crates for your scheme. it doesn't make my other points invalid
  <-- my brain when I clan with avi

Offline darKz

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2010, 09:40 PM »
I can see why one would rather want a pigeon than a homing missile, but as for the nade/holy and dyna/mine thing, I think all of those weapons come in handy sometimes and should be kept. Clusters however are completely useless on some maps and overpowered on others.
I remember knowing who it was but dont remember exactly what I knew
~ Dubc 2010

Offline avirex

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2010, 11:34 PM »
i think all schemes have to be revamped, and not just the weapons in the crates...

example 1) w2roper ftw

example 2) why do shopper games have 30 second turns?? no1 can deny the shopper scheme was invented by newbs.... so when the scheme made it to the bigtime (lol) why did the pro's accept 30 second turn time?   

it reminds me so much of the current roper scheme... when w:a was learning to rope you guys used this 15 second turn 10 retreat, and no matter how long you play, it will never change.. duno why i waste my time.

Offline chakkman

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2010, 12:08 AM »
i think all schemes have to be revamped, and not just the weapons in the crates...


No, they don't. And i don't think this thread was started because people want revolutionary changes in the schemes but to change the existing schemes so it simply fits better. Also none of your examples makes sense either. You know there's a big variety in skills of the players which play this league, it's not like there are Mablaks or Random00's all over this place. :) Apart from that i don't get all this breaking changes in schemes thing... these schemes which you want to change revolutionary and so advertise those work in leagues for years, people enjoy the schemes as they are.

And now you guys even bring Team17 up as a scheme to be discussed about it's several (imaginative) luck factors... where will this end? Which scheme will be next? You know the question you should ask yourselves is that if you lose and blame the circumstances, the things which you have no influence on, is it really all luck or bad luck or am i a bad loser? Of course i can make things easy for myself and blame the scheme surely... on the other hand take a look at Worm Olympics, the several leagues for Worms and take a look at who wins all the stuff. Yes, it is always the same guys. Strange considering there are so many "lucky" things in this game huh?


Offline Abnaxus

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2010, 12:47 AM »
Avi, Shopper is a strategic scheme before being a rope-skill one.
You get 30sec to think and act clearly, because every things you do change the result of the game.
Watashi wa, jinmei ni iku sa reru ka o kakunin surunoni nagai jikan o matteita.
Shikashi, tada nariyuki o mimamoru.
Jikan dake to iudarou gen'in to naru.

May the force be with you.

Offline avirex

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2010, 02:14 AM »
but 30 seconds? really?... ok

Offline TheKomodo

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 07:16 AM »
30 seconds for shopper is fine avi, it isn't really a sole rope based scheme, and like Ab said you use the turn time for stragetic moves, such as long distance knocks, being able to get out of a block, if you take away even 5 seconds from this scheme, it would drastically lower the possibilities of skillful moves and opportunitys.

I also agree with chakkman on this...

Offline Uber

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Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2010, 09:07 AM »
Alot of wise things being said here! :)
I deff dont think we should make a revolution here, and try 2 make all the schemes "non luck" ones. Its not possible 2 do that, and some of the schemes will always have bigger luck factors then others, BUT as Chakk said, its pretty much the same players that end up on top always in the different schemes.
  

-You think you are pretty smart, but is was not me, and you became dumb.   Phanton.    <3

Offline HHC

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2010, 09:15 AM »
Team17
It is just bad luck... bad luck wormers refuse to correct because oil drums in t17 are "classic".

This is exactly the attitude that has made me quit WA for the time being.

What is with you people that every single, tiny aspect of the game needs to be 'corrected' to take out the random/ "bad luck" factor?? Ask yourself this, would Worms, on a competitive level, still be fun if it came down to pure skill all the time? Wouldn't it be just as easy then to get rid of TUS and just hand out the Elite trophies to the CF squad, the RR to Ryan, the BnG to Komodo and the T17 to me (lolz)?
Heck, would Worms still be 'fun'?

I dont know about you but I feel that many schemes have already degenerated into some kind of chess, in which each and every game has the same set-up and an almost equal way the games develop towards SD. We have altered the maps, added manual placements, basically we've done everything to make this game more predictable under the pretense that it accurately reflects who has more skillzzz, but what we've actually done is taken the fun out of all of it.
Not just Roper and Shopper use custom maps nowadays, but Elite and BnG maps are also tweaked to meet our demands.. to get rid of any possible 'luck'-factors that might take us to a situation that is new to us, to which we are not prepared, to a game that is beyond our personal control. Oh horror!

In the meantime we push newbies away with our intricate and abundant houserules and our pro-schemes which have little to nothing to do with what Worms was originally meant to be.
You guys may whine all you want when 'boons' on the T17 forum, as well as Team17 themselves, fail to recognize the superiority of WA and its gametypes, but in all honesty.. it's the WA community itself that is blinded by its own incompetence to keep the game interesting for new and old players alike.

What people want is not some kind of inate chess-game in which the winner is pretty much predetermined (You can tell almost exactly who is going to be in the final of a RR cup or Elite tourney), instead, they want a game that is fun, easily accessible and competitive. In your drive to make this game more skill-based you have also made it dull, predictable and elitist.

Team17 has been the only scheme that kept me playing WA for longer than 2 months. It is the only scheme left that is not totally predictable. It's the fun of being faced with situations that are beyond your control and in which you must try to think of ways to gain benefit, to gain the upper hand. No T17 game is ever the same.. it's like playing chess, but instead the pieces are scattered randomly across the board. This makes for an entirely different game and no matter how you twist it: there's plenty of opportunity for good players to turn the game in their advantage.

Take out the 'overpowered' weapons, the barrels, the random placements, etcetera etcetera and what you are left with is the same inate, dull chess-shit Elite got turned into in the days of ESL.

Worms Reloaded for me is much more fun because placements are random, maps are random, mines are random, there's crates, barrels, fires, mines, etcetera etcetera. No game is ever the same. Playing a newbie can still be a challenge and each and every game you have to adapt to the circumstances given and exactly THAT is what's most fun to me.
But alas, even in W:R people want to inforce manual placement, the banning of caverns in BnG, the implementation of houserules, etc. So I wouldnt be surprised if they sucked out the fun out of this game as well.

So yeah, maybe it's time for the community to look in the mirror and ask themselves whether it's not a good idea to bring back random maps, auto placements and well, everything that can make the game more random. Random = good.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 09:18 AM by HHC »

Offline Free

Re: I am sick of tus schemes!
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2010, 09:49 AM »
You can always play funners when you feel like it.

When you want to compete, reducing luck is just the smart thing to do. For me competing with skilled players is most enjoyable.

Oh, and I want the elite trophy god dammit!