Intermediate and Classic league

[Mablak]

inter just will not work as part of the classic league, thats all! As good as this discussion is, it just won't work, most classic players do not want to play intermediate, let alone 2 or 3 rounds. As much as I respect the scheme, it really does not belong to the classic league and I think the voting so far reflects this. Bring back TNL, merge ONL, just dont add it to the classic league as we tried it before and it didnt work and I dont see it working if we try again.

Why don't we test it and see? TUS isn't a 100% serious league, so who cares if it doesn't get played much and has to be removed after a season or two, there is lots of room to try things out. All we have to do is replace shopper with inter, I'm sure inter can exceed that level of activity.

[ShyGuy]

the poll is kind of weird.. where is the option for: yes - bo1 is fine?

[Mablak]

bo1 = scheme change ;O

[avirex]

i agree, thats why i have not voted yet... (all though i have been following the thread)


Mablak: you made valid points about why there should not be placements, and i totally agree.... but besides that fact that you die hard inter. lovers do not want to see the scheme changed, or rules added.....

what do you think of a rule "no attack first turn" ... someone here (too lazy to go back and see who it was) thought it was a decent idea...

can you think of any negatives to this?? it would reduce the placement luck.. maybe one team will be forced (if chooses to) to use more "switch worms" then another, but i would much rather use a couple switches then lose worms in my first turn...

I think its a good idea, but again.. im not an inter expert by any means... maybe im missing obvious setbacks with this, as i did the idea of manual placement...

but if the only reason not to have this rule is because the die hard inters dont wanna see rules changed.....   thats not a very good reason in my eyes, especially being you dont think NNL players will even bother playing TUS regardless.

[avirex]

***OFF TOPIC***


this is the only way i know how to get a hold of you Mablak... hauhauah

come to AG lets clanner, you too shyputo

[NAiL]

inter just will not work as part of the classic league, thats all! As good as this discussion is, it just won't work, most classic players do not want to play intermediate, let alone 2 or 3 rounds. As much as I respect the scheme, it really does not belong to the classic league and I think the voting so far reflects this. Bring back TNL, merge ONL, just dont add it to the classic league as we tried it before and it didnt work and I dont see it working if we try again.

Why don't we test it and see? TUS isn't a 100% serious league, so who cares if it doesn't get played much and has to be removed after a season or two, there is lots of room to try things out. All we have to do is replace shopper with inter, I'm sure inter can exceed that level of activity.

Well we tested it before, and it didnt work out!

Sure we can try again... but to me this whole thread seems like a big waste of time when we consider the majority of people playing the classic league dont want intermediate as part of the classic league. Im all for inter being played, its a great scheme, but it needs bo3 minimum, it needs its own league, as ive said bring back TNL, merge ONL so TUS guys can see how competitive it is and what a beautiful scheme it is. As for replacing shopper with inter, why? Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.

I still stand by my idea... bo1 with placement. It would be a big tweak, change the dynamics a lot but the scheme would still work and to me it seems the only way of incorporating it into the classic league. I saw people turning their nose up at this idea, dno why, I understand schemes, I understand its a big change, but it seems the only way of doing things if you want it as part of the classic league. It would definitely be interesting.

I dont know why im bothering though, because I dont want it in the classic league and nor do I think the majority of classic league players want it in the classic league. We shouldn't be discussing this, we should be discussing what is going to replace TEL. Like I said despite the good points, this thread seems like a waste of time when im almost certain the majority of players dont want inter in the classic league and im confident the voting will reflect this (if it hasnt already). We should also consider the fact that loads of tus players wont even bother voting, or even read this thread.

I saw this thread and faceplamed because I thought "here we go again", its inevitable to me that the majority of players won't want it in the classic league so I braced myself for a big old debate that in the end is just futile. I also dont like the sudden shake up over "scheme classes", sprung about due to a "I hate hyst thread", seems like that one thread is leading to lots of spin off threads when no shake up is required, league is fine the way it is imo, I see no problems.

[Dub-c]

Tus classic needs less schemes. Not more.

Intermediate has never been a consistent part of leagues with lots of people playing it. Its a specialist scheme. In the overall community there is few that are really good at it. The scheme will have a HUGE advantage to the few that are good at it compared to the community. Added the scheme will screw up the whole league dynamic in my opinion.

We do have too many schemes, which is why scheme classes would be a huge help. But for the time being, shoppa is hardly played and could easily be removed to make room for inter. To call it a specialist scheme in the same way the RR or SSing are specialist schemes is quite absurd though; inter contains most of the essence of the game, it's the height of default schemes, and default is what most people come to worms for.

Some people starting off having an advantage is no reason to keep it out of the league if it's a worthy scheme. I'll even avoid playing inter in clanners for a while if people want a more fair match. But most of NNNL won't bother coming over here, the majority of TUS players will be on equal footing.

People having a huge advantage is a more then an adequate reason for keeping a scheme out of the classic league.

[KoreanRedDragon]

Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.

But more right than Intermediate? Why?

If you're going to assume that there are people out there who play TUS but won't vote in this poll even though they'd vote against Inter, someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already.

People having a huge advantage is a more then an adequate reason for keeping a scheme out of the classic league.

It's definitely no worse than the advantage notchers and cheaters (I'm counting markings and stuff here, do not be alarmed) have in BnG. If anything, the people good at Intermediate earned their advantage more fairly, through studying the game and practice as opposed to learning a system handed to them by someone else. Just sayin'.

Also, it's not like there isn't quite a few more or less high profile members of TUS who are good at the scheme already. Aside from Mab, Darío and the rest of NNN, I can think of at least barman, Chicken, Coste, Cueshark, Freeman, Husk and NAiL who have played quite a bit of Inter in the past. Thanks to their experience in other schemes, they were able to reach a high level at it very quickly and I don't see why the rest couldn't do the same.

[NAiL]

Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.

But more right than Intermediate? Why?

If you're going to assume that there are people out there who play TUS but won't vote in this poll even though they'd vote against Inter, someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already.

KRD, I clearly stated my reasoning for not wanting inter in the classic league.

My primary reason is that the majority of classic league players dont want it there. I dont assume people who play TUS won't vote, I know they dont because whenever there is a poll the number of votes NEVER adds up to the actual number of people who are playing tus (even in that one season).

You say people might start playing TUS because of inter, I doubt that. As Mab already said the die hard inter guys already play it on ONL, they play ONL because they dont like other schemes, only Inter! Sure, there may be the odd person who starts playing TUS CLASSIC because of inter, but everyone who is into inter is already playing inter on ONL and have been for years.

"someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already."

I really dont think so, has there even been one person in this thread who has said they will start playing if inter is added? There hasnt (correct me if im wrong), even if they did, just look at the voting, they are already outnumbered.

YES, shopper does have more right to be there because its always been there, the majority of players want it there, its bo1. Intermediate has not been a part of the classic league in any league ever before (except on tus and it failed). Now I like inter, I used to play ONL as you said, but it just doesnt work as part of a classic league when you need to play more than one round. This isnt me not wanting it because I dont like it, I dont want it because it doesnt work. Im all for brining back TNL or merging ONL, but we tried inter in the classic league and it didnt work and its not going to work if we try again for reasons that have been discussed time n time again.

Intermediate is not popular enough amongst the majority of TUS CLASSIC players to warrant it being given a place in the classic league, shopper is. If everyone was willing to play an hour long bo3 game of inter then it would work, as we can see by the votes (and what happened when inter was a part of tus classic) people are not always willing to play bo3 and I dont blame them. Personally, if everyone was happy to play bo3 I'd love inter to be part of the classic league. From past experience I know this not to be true, so no matter what id like I can see it wont work. Intermediate was a part of the classic league when TUS first started (you wernt around then), and it didnt work. I realise that this thread discusses potential changes to make it work, yet we cant agree on the changes, the community is divided as shown by the votes. This isnt my personal bias... im just being logical here.

[Mablak]

Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.

But more right than Intermediate? Why?

If you're going to assume that there are people out there who play TUS but won't vote in this poll even though they'd vote against Inter, someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already.

KRD, I clearly stated my reasoning for not wanting inter in the classic league.

My primary reason is that the majority of classic league players dont want it there. I dont assume people who play TUS won't vote, I know they dont because whenever there is a poll the number of votes NEVER adds up to the actual number of people who are playing tus (even in that one season).

You say people might start playing TUS because of inter, I doubt that. As Mab already said the die hard inter guys already play it on ONL, they play ONL because they dont like other schemes, only Inter! Sure, there may be the odd person who starts playing TUS CLASSIC because of inter, but everyone who is into inter is already playing inter on ONL and have been for years.

"someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already."

I really dont think so, has there even been one person in this thread who has said they will start playing if inter is added? There hasnt (correct me if im wrong), even if they did, just look at the voting, they are already outnumbered.

YES, shopper does have more right to be there because its always been there, the majority of players want it there, its bo1. Intermediate has not been a part of the classic league in any league ever before (except on tus and it failed). Now I like inter, I used to play ONL as you said, but it just doesnt work as part of a classic league when you need to play more than one round. This isnt me not wanting it because I dont like it, I dont want it because it doesnt work. Im all for brining back TNL or merging ONL, but we tried inter in the classic league and it didnt work and its not going to work if we try again for reasons that have been discussed time n time again.

Intermediate is not popular enough amongst the majority of TUS CLASSIC players to warrant it being given a place in the classic league, shopper is. If everyone was willing to play an hour long bo3 game of inter then it would work, as we can see by the votes (and what happened when inter was a part of tus classic) people are not always willing to play bo3 and I dont blame them. Personally, if everyone was happy to play bo3 I'd love inter to be part of the classic league. From past experience I know this not to be true, so no matter what id like I can see it wont work. Intermediate was a part of the classic league when TUS first started (you wernt around then), and it didnt work. I realise that this thread discusses potential changes to make it work, yet we cant agree on the changes, the community is divided as shown by the votes. This isnt my personal bias... im just being logical here.

What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.

You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.

If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.

[Dub-c]

C'mon man. Adding any scheme to the tus league is not going to add any activity.

[NAiL]

What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.

You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.

If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.

You quoted my whole post but only responded to one point. I responded to your point about replacing shopper with inter and how that isnt fair. The majority does not want it, if you say that out of the people who voted no outright some will try it, out of the people who voted yes but only bo3, some of those people are not going to play without bo3, and out of those who voted "yes but it needs tweaking", some of those will not play because it all depends on what the tweaks are. We can see people have reacted negatively to proposed "tweaks" and they won't play if they aren't happy with the scheme. Im counting the "yes but only bo3" votes as obsolete because bo3 inter is NOT going to be part of the classic league and we all know that.

The main point I made was that we tried intermediate as part of the classic league before, you could choose how many rounds you wanted to play, it didnt work. It isnt fair to force people to play two rounds if they dont want to, im repeating myself here, it just wont work. I agree with dub, I cannot see how adding intermediate to the classic league is going to attract new players. Everyone who wants to play it competitively is already doing so on ONL, and most of those players have no interest in playing other schemes. Repeating myself.. it wont work, we tried it before and it didnt work, what we should be discussing is what is going to replace TEL. These russian guys... they will join TUS just to pick inter in the classic league and then be forced to play ttrr and wxw..? Just dont see it working.

Id like TNL to come back or ONL to merge with TUS as I keep saying, I think thats best for intermediate on TUS.

[Jakka]

Yeah these russian guys...
Maybe you don't see it working, but I do. In fact I know people who'd join TUS and play fairly actively in it without complaining about having to play other schemes as well.

Also, you last point is pretty narrow minded. If somebody is new to worms, learns wxw, sticks to it and joins tus (and yeah this happens often enough) then suddenly a wild Phantom appears and picks hysteria. Now explain me how it's okay to be forced to play other schemes if you a are eg a WxW player and why is it different with Inter pickers. I'll go even further and say that many of players who joined TUS years ago still stick to one to two schemes they like and feel raped mentally (exaggeration) when people pick schemes they don't like. Yet TUS works pretty well for them.

[Mablak]

What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.

You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.

If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.

You quoted my whole post but only responded to one point. I responded to your point about replacing shopper with inter and how that isnt fair. The majority does not want it, if you say that out of the people who voted no outright some will try it, out of the people who voted yes but only bo3, some of those people are not going to play without bo3, and out of those who voted "yes but it needs tweaking", some of those will not play because it all depends on what the tweaks are. We can see people have reacted negatively to proposed "tweaks" and they won't play if they aren't happy with the scheme. Im counting the "yes but only bo3" votes as obsolete because bo3 inter is NOT going to be part of the classic league and we all know that.

The main point I made was that we tried intermediate as part of the classic league before, you could choose how many rounds you wanted to play, it didnt work. It isnt fair to force people to play two rounds if they dont want to, im repeating myself here, it just wont work. I agree with dub, I cannot see how adding intermediate to the classic league is going to attract new players. Everyone who wants to play it competitively is already doing so on ONL, and most of those players have no interest in playing other schemes. Repeating myself.. it wont work, we tried it before and it didnt work, what we should be discussing is what is going to replace TEL. These russian guys... they will join TUS just to pick inter in the classic league and then be forced to play ttrr and wxw..? Just dont see it working.

Id like TNL to come back or ONL to merge with TUS as I keep saying, I think thats best for intermediate on TUS.

Most of the bo3 people haven't considered bo2 yet, I'd count them as more likely 'yes' than 'no', but the poll doesn't matter that much. TNL would be fine, but it would only potentially add lasting activity for clanners (and probably only if the NNN players decide to try it), there wouldn't be much reason to play singles TNL when you can play NNNL. The reason I want it in classic league is to GET people to play it, and get some of the new players who already play it to check out TUS. Honestly, I don't see TNL being more active than TEL though.

As to why we need to try intermediate again, I said it: because of the ever-growing community of Russians/newer players who play it; the community has changed. When I'm playing intermediate with noobs, I direct them to NNNL when I remember to. I can't possibly tell them to check out TUS, because there'd be nothing they're familiar with there. I feel like that's a genuine reason to have it as an option. I would personally make an effort to tell newer players who are interested in intermediate to check out this site, and they would have a reason to stay.

But also, interest in the scheme is higher among the TUS regulars than it was last time. You've got Husk, Free, Barman, Lacoste, Random00, Thouson, Chicken, Titahemp, me, a lot more people would say they really like the scheme this time around. Things are different enough to say that it's worth a try.

[NAiL]

fair play mab^

Yeah these russian guys...
Maybe you don't see it working, but I do. In fact I know people who'd join TUS and play fairly actively in it without complaining about having to play other schemes as well.

Also, you last point is pretty narrow minded. If somebody is new to worms, learns wxw, sticks to it and joins tus (and yeah this happens often enough) then suddenly a wild Phantom appears and picks hysteria. Now explain me how it's okay to be forced to play other schemes if you a are eg a WxW player and why is it different with Inter pickers. I'll go even further and say that many of players who joined TUS years ago still stick to one to two schemes they like and feel raped mentally (exaggeration) when people pick schemes they don't like. Yet TUS works pretty well for them.

wut?

I get the feeling you dont like me (since before this thread).

How was my last point "narrow minded"? My point was many inter players only like to play normal... even in this thread an NNN member spoke of how the normal community segregated themselves.

Mablak spoke about the "Russian community" of inter players who may sign up to TUS if inter is added, my point was would they want to play other schemes... would they understand the concept of the classic league etc... nothing "narrow minded" about that.. dno why your talking about a wild phanton... wtf u on?

I'll go even further and say that many of players who joined TUS years ago still stick to one to two schemes they like and feel raped mentally (exaggeration) when people pick schemes they don't like. Yet TUS works pretty well for them.

Now that is narrow minded.

Maybe you don't see it working, but I do

yeh i dont see it working? why? because we tried it as part of the classic league before, and guess what... thats right, it didnt work, thats why I dont see it working. You can see the poll results right? Most people dont want it in the classic league, the ones that do are divided as to how it should be if it were to be part of the classic league.

When inter was part of the classic league before it didnt work, like I said, it wasnt popular enough amongst the majority of TUS CLASSIC players, nothing "narrow minded" about me saying that, its the truth. People refused to play inter, people couldnt agree on whether to play bo1 or bo3 or bo5... you would get a different amount of points depending on how many rounds you played, it was a big mess.

So yeh dont tell me im narrow minded thanks, cos I like inter, I base my judgement from past experience not from personal bias, like I said.