Future of TUS

[Chicken23]

I agree with KRD and avi's views. I don't think you should reduce points for inactivity as they are like archives of data that the community wants to see. I want to see people who played really well and get elite ranks in tus classic. I want to see who is the highest overall in a certain scheme type and use that to motivate me to try and be 1st. When i was active i was keen on trying to get in the top 5 for elite, t17 and bng and i did for awhile. Komo came and just won loads of bngs to get 1st in that. But also that season komo was only asking for bng tus classics, which is fair enough so in a sense i believe hes being a hypocrite to say we shouldn't let people avoid.

Players have different motivations for tus classic but most of the time people want to reach playoffs and the playoffs should be representative of being a good allrounder. It just determines how much of an allrounder you can train to be.

SPW - I believe you have a shot at reaching the PO's because you can win elite, t17 and bngs. If you made it into the po's you'd have a chance of winning tus classic, just as much as I think i could. I think the tus system is perfect point wise, you just have to make a choice if you want to play rope based schemes to be regarded as a great wormer. I think its worth playing rope based schemes and even started to enjoy them and saw my shop, rope and rr skills improve over the last couple of years when i was active.
The issue is people move on from wa and get busy in life. Its also about popularity, im sure if you had a tus season with activity from players like franz, mablak, random00, mil2, almog, dibz, dubc, barman and others all fighting for a playoff space you'd have a lot more activity. But people move on, i guess TUS needs to look at ways to motivate people to play again but thats difficult, what you should be doing it looking at ways of improving the skill set of current players? Im not active so i couldn't tell you how good the recent seasons participants are, but if people think its just a matter of being active to reach the playoffs and doesn't require great skill, maybe look at the criteria to make POs, i couldn't comment on that.

WA has its lulls, but it'll get better. I personally will only ever play 1 computer game in my life and that is wa. I just don't have the free time at the moment to play actively and when i do get free time i want to put them into other projects like a marketing blog or renovating my home. I got inactive because i felt like playing computer games became a waste of my time, i don't think i'll ever do long sessions of playing wa for the whole day. But i could easily log in for 2 hours a day and enjoy a handful of games when i get more free time. I recently took part in eac and that suited me because i didn't need to be that active and i still had some great competitive games even though i wasn't online much..

sorry for the egocentric post, just my thoughts on things.

[TheKomodo]

But also that season komo was only asking for bng tus classics, which is fair enough so in a sense i believe hes being a hypocrite to say we shouldn't let people avoid.

That isn't true, I just picked BnG more or less every single time, I asked for BnG only like a few times when I was drunk, and once I got such a high rating people would pick it against me so it would usually be 2 BnG's.

I can't deny my only goal was to become 1st in BnG though, and yes I still am kind of a hypocrit because I have avoided certain schemes like the plague, but like I said i've always played them when there has been no alternative.

Nice post by the way, but I still think TuS would be awesome to have a fresh start on the main League.

[Statik]

It's not easy (if even possible) to get into overall top if all top players are inactive.

[Ryan]

Interesting discussion on ratings and how to manage it.

In terms of overall stats - I'm sure if you ask people care more for their win/loss ratio and not for points. An inactivity point deduction or actually a points reset would be fine - just archive people's win/loss stats.

That way people won't be demotivated about having less points and can have a "current climate number 1 status" and those who have played in the past still have a record/history to show.

[avirex]

i would be all for 10% drop, per season for inactivity...


KRD, i dont think your taking into consideration what statik said..


im not taking anything away from CF's accomplishment, they have a very high overall ranking...

but they did that when alot of clans were up and coming, and everyone had the same advantage to gain points....


but now trying to steal that rank, with them being inactive is nearly impossible.

same with roper, im trying to get 1st place over-all rank in roper scheme, but its almost impossible because many of the top ten players are not active, so i can only gain 5, to 10 points tops per win, where as if the top 10 were active, i could play vs. them and have a nice point increase..

so when you take that into consideration, do you believe the overall is accurate?? i dont.

% decrease for inactivity is the way to go.


ps. Lol @ That isn't true, I just picked BnG more or less every single time, I asked for BnG only like a few times when I was drunk

[TheKomodo]

Well said about everything there avi, very good points that everyone should take into consideration.

But why is it funny what I said?

[KoreanRedDragon]

So avi, theoretically...

If CF was as inactive as they currently are, but the clanner landscape today was much more active and offered many more new clans with fresh 1000 ratings for dt to play against than CF had during their prime, would you argue that CF's overall rating, in their inactivity, should gradually increase to compensate for it? If not, why would that be so different to hitting them with the rating decay stick just because currently active clans allegedly have more accurate ratings than they did back then? How do you even measure this and determine what an appropriate rate of decay would be? And what if the situation changes again in the future and this crutch begins to fail in making things feel more fair? Go back to the old system with no rating decay? Now that would make it difficult to compare success between clans active during different TUS seasons...

Don't get me wrong, I can imagine scenarios where having rating decay in a ranking system is beneficial, or at least addresses some immediate problems, even if I don't like the idea in principle. But out of the many concerns Statik and others have brought up in this thread (scheme avoiding, waning clanner activity, people looking at overall standings for information on who the best players/clans are today and so on), I feel not a single one is best covered by the introduction of rating decay, much less all of them at once.

Also, since you ask, yeah, I do actually think the overall clan standings on TUS are a reasonably accurate representation of who the most successful TUS clans of all time have been. You have to keep in mind that the overall standings don't take playoff performance into account and do take into account how clever a clan has been in picking its opponents during each season. Between that and CF's higher overall win percentage in general, despite them having much fewer games played, it does seem intuitive to me that they'd be placed higher than dt on that particular table. Of course I also think dt should be perfectly allowed to frequently link the interested public to the hall of fame where you're shown to have dominated playoffs for like a year straight, to which CF could reply that sure, but playoffs were more difficult to win back when they were doing it, to which you'd call them filthy Germans and so on. But after all was said and done, the two clans would get about equal recognition and I think that's as fair and accurate as you can have it under the system that's in place.

Now if you wanted to tackle the problem of players and clans who are skilled at many schemes not being awarded generously enough compared to scheme specialists, TUS does already implement the "all-around" standings and playoffs... it's just that nobody knows they're there. But that should probably be discussed elsewhere.

Edit: Oops, the starting rating is 1000 on TUS, not 1200.

[TheKomodo]

KRD, and with all due respect to CF and all it's players, I don't think CF would win as many games today as they did back then seeing as alot of the players they used to beat are pretty much the same players that play now, only difference is CF have been inactive and haven't really gained any skill and the players they used to beat have increased their skill quite a bit, obviously CF would still be a top clan, but just not as ridiculously good as they were before...

I think dt could honestly have better statistics than CF if they picked their schemes as carefully as possible, but this would prevent alot of dt members from even being able to participate, ruining the spirit that dt has... The same could be said for a few other clans as well.

But that isn't the concern here, nor do I even feel it's what bothers people, CF have barely played TuS this entire year, it is nigh impossible to reach them in overall, I understand what you are saying about you see Overall as the entire history, but personally I think that's bullshit when the top clan hasn't even played for like an entire f@#!ing year lol...

I see CF as the "World Record" holders but Overall should be reset like once a year or something...

KRD - How can you say PO were more difficult to win back then? Because I would say that's wrong and I feel it's been the same for years, it hasn't got any harder or easier, it all comes down to how good your team is and how good your opponents are, it always has, however logic would dictate it should get harder as time goes on because players should be better shouldn't they?

[Anubis]

Filthy germans! Me being one supported a thread in dt to more carefully pick schemes when clanning some time ago. It was quickly disagreed on.
At least I tried, fellow filthy germans, at least I tried!

[KoreanRedDragon]

KRD, and with all due respect to CF and all it's players, I don't think CF would win as many games today as they did back then seeing as alot of the players they used to beat are pretty much the same players that play now, only difference is CF have been inactive and haven't really gained any skill and the players they used to beat have increased their skill quite a bit, obviously CF would still be a top clan, but just not as ridiculously good as they were before...

Which explains why CF aren't the ones comfortably winning playoffs today, and the various TUS sections are there to show it.

I think dt could honestly have better statistics than CF if they picked their schemes as carefully as possible, but this would prevent alot of dt members from even being able to participate, ruining the spirit that dt has... The same could be said for a few other clans as well.

Right, but the way this league (and frankly any other competition on any other game that I can think of right now) works is that being careful about optimising your yields means you're a better player/clan as far as the league is concerned. I'm sure you don't mean to say that TUS should award anyone for what they could have achieved, but that's how it's coming out...

But that isn't the concern here, nor do I even feel it's what bothers people, CF have barely played TuS this entire year, it is nigh impossible to reach them in overall, I understand what you are saying about you see Overall as the entire history, but personally I think that's bullshit when the top clan hasn't even played for like an entire f@#!ing year lol...

I see CF as the "World Record" holders but Overall should be reset like once a year or something...

Compared to previous WA leagues, TUS already does a great deal to showcase currently dominant players and clans, with only the overall standings there for clans who may have done amazingly during seasons but perhaps failed to win as many playoffs (not saying CF failed to win playoffs, of course, they have the cups in their profile to show otherwise). Why is it so vital that this information be hidden when instead it'd be much easier to just tell players who are looking at overall standings to learn about the best clans today that they should look somewhere else for that information?

KRD - How can you say PO were more difficult to win back then? Because I would say that's wrong and I feel it's been the same for years, it hasn't got any harder or easier, it all comes down to how good your team is and how good your opponents are, it always has, however logic would dictate it should get harder as time goes on because players should be better shouldn't they?

I didn't actually say clanner playoffs were more difficult to win back then, I only gave that as an example of the sort of counterargument CF could have resorted to in this imaginary battle for best TUS clan ever, hehe. No doubt they historically took their non-playoff games and rating more seriously than dt, and so I would find it perfectly reasonable if they wanted to keep the overall standings as they are, not introduce rating decay or other shenanigans (hiding inactive clans until they start playing again was the norm in past Worms leagues) to them.

But on the subject of logic, if clanner competition is as tough today as it's ever been, why have so many people been complaining about the lack of highly competitive clans in recent years? I don't know if this is actually the case, but if there were more competitive clans around in 2010 and 2011 than there are today, wouldn't that by definition make old TUS playoffs harder to win?

Filthy germans! Me being one supported a thread in dt to more carefully pick schemes when clanning some time ago. It was quickly disagreed on.
At least I tried, fellow filthy germans, at least I tried!

Lmao. There we go, filthy German theory proven!

[Statik]

I may be wrong, but even if there were 3-4 competetive clans of the same skill level, then they would never reach CF rating without playing vs CF. Those clans would have similar overall points but much less than CF because they couldn't "steal" their points (or lose own points if CF is really so great ).

[TheKomodo]

Which explains why CF aren't the ones comfortably winning playoffs today, and the various TUS sections are there to show it.

So we agree here or?

Right, but the way this league (and frankly any other competition on any other game that I can think of right now) works is that being careful about optimising your yields means you're a better player/clan as far as the league is concerned. I'm sure you don't mean to say that TUS should award anyone for what they could have achieved, but that's how it's coming out...

CF is about the only clan in recent years (by that I mean during TuS) that has been so careful to pick their games, not that there is anything wrong with that, just saying that most clans on Wnet have PO winning potential, yet mostly have members who don't take the game as serious, I guess my point here is, CF is the only clan that acts like this, sometimes it feels like (comparing in football terms here) they are Real Madrid and everyone else consists of 3rd division English League teams...

Honestly, it's impossible these days to even create a team that can compete with CF's statistics due to the fact (and I have to be honest here) dt has Mablak but he rarely plays and they have many not as strong players, AeF has barman but again he hardly plays and we are the same, for example I was very strong at BnG/Roper/Hysteria but pretty weak at everything else, but while saying that Peja has got a hell of a lot better and I bet he's had more fun learning with great players than winning like a robot...

cFc came the closest to CF when I was very active and we had lalo/daina/Artic all active too, but Artic left, I was an asshole so decided to leave too...

And just when AeF are starting to grow very strong, because Peja has improved like hell, Swist/kyho are getting ridiculously good, (sorry if you didn't want this mentioned already but it's important to this post) Kyho & Swist decide to leave and recreate AQ, that really hurts AeF... Sure it will increase activity but now both AQ/AeF will suck in PO and really decrease their overall climbing ability...

Compared to previous WA leagues, TUS already does a great deal to showcase currently dominant players and clans, with only the overall standings there for clans who may have done amazingly during seasons but perhaps failed to win as many playoffs (not saying CF failed to win playoffs, of course, they have the cups in their profile to show otherwise). Why is it so vital that this information be hidden when instead it'd be much easier to just tell players who are looking at overall standings to learn about the best clans today that they should look somewhere else for that information?

Well, looking @ other information takes too long, I can't be bothered having to select Clanners - Season - Overall - then clanners again... wait on it loading, then pick another season, wait on it loading, pick another season, wait on it loading, etc etc... (Honestly while I am on that subject, why the hell does it automatically flip to singles everytime I change from overall to a season??? It's annoying as hell, I want it to stay on clanners while I browse clanners !)

Basically, Overall shows you the past, not the present or the future... Maybe if CF were active, and cFc were still as strong/active, TaG too, what the actual f@#! are doh still doing there anyway ?!? It's things like that why I personally wish there was a reset...

I didn't actually say clanner playoffs were more difficult to win back then, I only gave that as an example of the sort of counterargument CF could have resorted to in this imaginary battle for best TUS clan ever, hehe. No doubt they historically took their non-playoff games and rating more seriously than dt, and so I would find it perfectly reasonable if they wanted to keep the overall standings as they are, not introduce rating decay or other shenanigans (hiding inactive clans until they start playing again was the norm in past Worms leagues) to them.

Not trying to be a dick but:

but playoffs were more difficult to win back when they were doing it, to which you'd call them filthy Germans and so on.

I just don't see why we can't take the overall standings as they are, save them into a hall of fame and start fresh again, giving everyone a chance to battle to the top again, perhaps CF would even get active again to try and reach 1st again? Perhaps dt would fill more of their potential for overall and take them on? Maybe other clans would form to try and take that 1st place? Not saying it would, just maybe... I think it'd be more exciting at least, it's been what 5 or 6 years now cmon...

But on the subject of logic, if clanner competition is as tough today as it's ever been, why have so many people been complaining about the lack of highly competitive clans in recent years? I don't know if this is actually the case, but if there were more competitive clans around in 2010 and 2011 than there are today, wouldn't that by definition make old TUS playoffs harder to win?

Well I never said clanner competition is as tough today as it's ever been, I just said logic dictates players should be better now so it should be, but clearly it isn't because even though alot of the great players are better, the community as a whole is just much less active, I mean, I believe the more choice we have the more diverse we will become, it isn't just 3 schemes for the entire WNET anymore, we have hundreds of schemes now...

[Anubis]

kyho and swist leave AeF? I see.

[avirex]

whek krd said  " but playoffs were more difficult to win back when they were doing it, to which you'd call them filthy Germans and so on. "


he clearly said, that it could be a counter argument CF could make... he did not mean in any way that po were harder in the past, he also did not mean they were not, komo... try to comprehend.


KRD, i rly do not care if inactive clans get 'runged' for inactivity, im just saying i think it should happen for 2 reasons: maybe it will give inactive players incentive to keep playing...

and also, as statik said its impossible to reach them, without having the luxury of competing vs. them...

as i said, im trying to reach 1st place roper, but like 7 out of the top 10 (if not all) are inactive... how will i ever reach those points, without being able to compete with them??? 5points at a time? and for each loss i lose 70??? 


so in order for me to gain 100 points right now,  i have to win 20 consistant games, and if i lose 1, game... im back down 70.... so i can go 20wins, 1losee, and i only gained 30 points....

do you think the top ten had these struggles 4 years ago when they achieved their high rank?? i dont think so...    so do you believe the overall statistics are accurate? i dont.. its my opinion.


ps: dont look at my overall rating, because i did not try in the past, i never reported any games, so my actual over all is very inaccurate. its all losses, no wins.


but the past 3 seasons in roper im 78.75, 80.35, and 84.21%  thats a higher win percentage by atleast 10% then most of the top 10.

but its still not enough, my win percentage has to be 95% for me to even have a chance... does that seem fair to you??


 

[Peja]

well about this who is the greates clan of all time cock duell: imo its clear dt is it. they won most playoffs, and they won 100% of their po finals against cf (afaik xD) anyway who cares for overall stats and winning seasons, its all about championships.

í dont think it matter much, but stats are clear here.