Limited girders in T17

[chakkman]

Well i sorta cant count the time where i got owned by my opponent before sd coz he had 5 nanas, Sally's Army or so when using the FB scheme. Dont wanna complain about it tho... i still think its a good scheme, but some modifications would be appreciated.

Endless discussions, never ends... http://www.laene.nl/CE/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3475&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

True true hehe

[SacrificialLamb]

FB scheme was different from T17 league channel scheme as it didnt feature 1 worm select.

1 worm select was slowly removed from the scheme. All cr8s stayed the same etc, just this change i think.

worm select was cool because it gave you an option against a 1 vs 4 worm piling/grider block war.

But i feel the new cr8 chances on tus are some what lacking to old!

I don't remember u having a select worm!  The only changes I can remember is that clusters were normal power for a little while, and ropes could be found in crates.  Clusters were de-powered and ropes removed from crates.

Then 9 years later, girders were made 7 instead of infinite. 

[NAiL]

I find that the only argument for limited girders in T17 is "stop blocking me".

You named the most relevant argument for limited girders right there. Theoretically you could simply draw a game by blocking your opponent in every single turn.

SG ne1? Aqua ne1? Homing ne1? SW ne1? Moving far away enough to prevent block ne1? Magic bullet ne1?

Counteracting TACTICS, with TACTICS is the name of the game when it comes to turn based strategy.

How many games have been won when girders are unlimited, an uncountable number.

If your argument was true, no T17 games would ever be won.

About the weps in the current tus scheme, I like em. Balanced.

[Chicken23]

I find that the only argument for limited girders in T17 is "stop blocking me".

You named the most relevant argument for limited girders right there. Theoretically you could simply draw a game by blocking your opponent in every single turn.

SG ne1? Aqua ne1? Homing ne1? SW ne1? Moving far away enough to prevent block ne1? Magic bullet ne1?

Counteracting TACTICS, with TACTICS is the name of the game when it comes to turn based strategy.

How many games have been won when girders are unlimited, an uncountable number.

If your argument was true, no T17 games would ever be won.

About the weps in the current tus scheme, I like em. Balanced.

i agree with all ur lines expect the last

the current tus scheme it sooooooooo unbalanced. its just hhg, flamie, minigun, longbow, old woman, sheep launcher............

there isnt enough shit weapons. These change the tactics of a game.. at the moment its just pure aggression. ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK..

players who remember the alternative schemes to tus agree with me here.

[pr]

Omg so much talks about this lucky scheme.

[chakkman]

The ones who talk the most have the least to say.

[NAiL]

the current tus scheme it sooooooooo unbalanced. its just hhg, flamie, minigun, longbow, old woman, sheep launcher............

there isnt enough shit weapons. These change the tactics of a game.. at the moment its just pure aggression. ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK..

players who remember the alternative schemes to tus agree with me here.

I played the AL, FB, XTS and TUS schemes.

Honestly I cant remember what the differences where like, although im almost certain crate chances weren't that much different.

What do you mean by shit weps? Handgun, uzi, grenades, clusters etc?

I get these weps along with better ones in almost every T17 I play.

Your a good T17er, you know that even if you get a "good" wep, its only useful to you in the right circumstances. You dont usually use a granny as soon as you get one, or any other "good" wep for that matter. You use your weps when an opportunity arises, when you can get the most bang for your buck.

If both players have the same chances of getting the same weapons then there isn't a problem.

I dont think you've played enough T17's with the TUS scheme to come to that decision. Its also a very subjective opinion as for every game you could show me (uisng the TUS scheme) thats "all aggression" as you say, I could find you a replay where ive had "shit" weps and have had to play extra defensive.

It all comes down to luck on the day, and as you know getting "good" weps does not automatically secure a win, or lead to attacking every turn. Thats what the girders are for, thats why we darkside worms and wait for good opportunities to attack.

[Chicken23]

i have noticed in my games getting more weapons like hhg, minigun, flamie, longbow, than picking up weapons like mines, grenades, moles, clusters, mortors, uzi's.

Maybe thats me being lucky, ive been playing alot of t17's recently and both myself and my opponents have had such weapons... The only times ive had to use darkside tactics is due to picking up powerful sd weapons.. Not getting shit cr8s.

Ive only felt ive had bad cr8s in one game in a long time.. in terms of not very powerful weapons. Ive been in situations in games where ive had to play aggressive because i keep getting these big none super weapons.

Uber and crazy who also have experience in t17 have noticed this aswell.. Something just doesnt feel right about the cr8 chances..

[NAiL]

Well if anything surely this makes for a more exciting game.

My point is, even if your getting better weps in general, then so is your opponant.

This doesnt mean each turn will be attack attack attack, you'll still play with defence in regard the same you would had you picked up worser weps.

[SacrificialLamb]

Uber and crazy who also have experience in t17 have noticed this aswell.. Something just doesnt feel right about the cr8 chances..

I've been playing Team17 since like 2000, competing in channel #Team17~ These crate chances are the same as they've always been !!! [Unlimited girders version]

[Crazy]

Hehe I`m sure he was looking for a different word then crate chances... Not many can pull of "oldschooling" out Chicken though, a player voted the third best team17 player as far back as 8 years ago The only guy still active is HHC I guess

[SacrificialLamb]

I don't know which came first, the Chicken or the Lamb    But Team17 has always been my favorite scheme, and if there was a difference in crate chances I think the games would not still end around the same exact time as usual... 9 times out of 10, a game between 2 great Team17 players ends a little after sudden death, sometimes a little sooner, sometimes have to wait for the water to come up some, and occasionally no one even gets any SD weaps and everyone drowns...  I've probably played more than 1,000 Team17 games since I started in 1999, and the games have always seemed to end around the same timeframe... as with back then, I'm still not surprised when someone gets a banana on the first turn!  Its always been that way.  Maybe there is a difference because I don't remember the exact settings for crate chances, but I have not noticed any differences whatsoever

[ShyGuy]

here's my opinion:  when you have an unlimited supply of girders, little thought goes into laying them down.  at least with limited girders you have to put some thought into it when you want to lay a girder cos then you can't just mindlessly block your opponent out of desperation.  yes, desperation.  the only time you see people blocking every turn is when they get their ass demolished early on and just hope to get some crates by blocking.  and when you think about it, blocking is really easy, so even really bad t17 players can win/draw doing it if their opponent doesn't get any useful weapon, which happens a lot no matter how hard you deny it. When a skillful player can lose to a simple tactic that noobs and pros can both pull off easily, to me it is a scheme flaw.

concerning weapons, I've always said removing nanas, vases, armies, and maybe magic bullets would force the players to be more creative with the other weapons, thus improving the chances for the better t17 player to win in the already luck-filled scheme

[Devilage]

I vote for unlimited.

[Free]

I vote for unlimited also.

In my opinion, if you get girder-trapped in a way where opponent just collects and girders you back, well then you did something wrong before and opponent is just taking advantage of it. There are ways to counter this, but you need to be creative about it. Map control starts from the start of the game, if you give it away then you did something wrong.

I'd like to see bit less powerful weapons in T17 though.