Private Module

[Albus]

A lot of discussion is going on around wkWormOrder and the idea of a module that would work as a weapon usage tracker. You can see the details at:

https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/wkwormorder-v-1-0-1-released-33536/

https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon-promotion-project/(module-idea)-weapon-usage-tracker-33562/

WkWormOrder, already published, allows you to see the sequence of YOUR team. However, there are people who support the idea that this module also allows you to see the sequence of the enemy team, something that is generating greater controversy.

The other idea, would be a module to allow you to see what weapons the enemy used.

I do not want to go into the merits of the discussion here, as this is being discussed in these topics.

There is a possible reality in this scenario: since people are facing obstacles to play the game, publicly, in the way they find most pleasurable (which they don't think is wrong and would just make the game more enjoyable), we should consider the possibility of these people making private modules etc. If they do not have technical knowledge, they can also hiring someone to do it.

But the problem is that, even if someone does it, although I don't consider it cheating¹ or that they will have a relevant advantage against me, I wouldn't want to play against someone who has access to things like that while I don't. As a competitive player, I think I would be entitled to know if anyone is using something like that.

So, what can people like me (who play competitively and don't want to be in that situation) do in this situation?



¹ I don't consider cheating because the person just found out a way to access the same information in an even easier way than the existing ones (in the topics mentioned, several practical methods of getting the order of the enemy team and tracking the weapons usage were listed). That person would be having access to the same information that other people have access only with the difference of being something more practical.

[King-Gizzard]

As you say, a coder could quickly knock up a module that privately displays all team worm order in-game, weapon use and more besides, without detection. Chances are, over the years someone has already done this kind of thing and used it privately or shared it between friends/clan members.

I think it's great that there's a mod framework in WA and there has been some amazing work. But I see the predicament with cup/league games. I think it should ideally be a level playing field; the same agreed setup on all sides. Even things like using transparent water should be consistent IMO.  I'm not saying these mods shouldn't be used in cup/league games, but their use should be set out by the organisor who may very well allow certain modules, to save having to memorise / write things down for example.

To your question, and the problem... enforcement. It's all on trust at the moment. It would need a technical solution to allow participants and organisors to verify mod use, likely in the form of an official update. It may not be infallible, but enough to get the desired result if implemented well.

[TheKomodo]

To be honest, I think it's about time wk modules in general should be approved by Team17, being mandatory.

They made the game, they should have the final say, then and only then would I accept it. Of course the point being right now I have no choice but to accept it, nobody does.

[King-Gizzard]

Would Team17 even get involved/care?  I'm assuming they approved the WormKit framework when it was created so they were fine with the idea of modding.  It would probably land with Deadcode to determine what (if anything) to do.

[TheKomodo]

Would Team17 even get involved/care?  I'm assuming they approved the WormKit framework when it was created so they were fine with the idea of modding.  It would probably land with Deadcode to determine what (if anything) to do.

I've never actually thought about that, did Team17 actually approve the WormKit framework, or did people just do it?

[King-Gizzard]

From what I can see it started as an external tool released in 2006 by CS.  Back then you'd run 'WormKit.exe' rather than 'WA.exe' to load the game with wk*.dll modules.  From WA v3.7, this functionality was officially integrated into the game.  My understanding is that Team 17 need to approve all updates by DC/CS before release. The update documentation can be found in the WA install folder.

[TheKomodo]

To be honest, i'd be incredibly surprised if they did care.

They didn't do anything about official rankings, so I doubt they'd care about leagues unrelated directly to Team17, even if they are very respected by a huge part of the community.

I personally didn't use wk modules until 3.7 or later, even then still thought it wasn't weird until actually it was integrated like it is now with 3.8.

[King-Gizzard]

I'm not sure there's anything special about 3.8 (over 3.7) in terms of loading custom modules.  The ability to develop and load your own modules goes back to 2006 (and before if someone 'hacks' the game or creates their own loader).  Obviously a lot more community modules exist now and IMO we're much better off for it.

Of course there could potentially be modules blatantly used for cheating, but then there's grey area stuff which probably isn't worth arguing over.  'wkRemapKeys' and 'wkFKeyRearrange' may give an advantage to a player because it makes them more efficient with keyboard controls and weapon order - while their opponent may not be aware of them... would you want to remove those modules from league/cup games?  A module that reminds you of your own worm order? I don't think it's that big a deal personally.

[Kaleu]

I'm not sure there's anything special about 3.8 (over 3.7) in terms of loading custom modules.  The ability to develop and load your own modules goes back to 2006 (and before if someone 'hacks' the game or creates their own loader).  Obviously a lot more community modules exist now and IMO we're much better off for it.

Of course there could potentially be modules blatantly used for cheating, but then there's grey area stuff which probably isn't worth arguing over.  'wkRemapKeys' and 'wkFKeyRearrange' may give an advantage to a player because it makes them more efficient with keyboard controls and weapon order - while their opponent may not be aware of them... would you want to remove those modules from league/cup games?  A module that reminds you of your own worm order? I don't think it's that big a deal personally.

I share the same opinion. I don't see the reason for not realeasing a module to automate what some players already can do manually. We should either make it available to everyone or encrypt replays in the next update so people who are more tech savvy don't have an extra advantage over casual pc user, because extracting team order from live recording replay is some hacking effort not gonna lie.

[TheKomodo]

I don't see the reason for not realeasing a module to automate what some players already can do manually.

So we should just give everyone TA then and let them use it in online games?

Let's hire Boston Dynamics to create AI that just plays the game for us, since we already can do that manually, though, let's just do it automatically because some people are lazy lol.

[King-Gizzard]

If whatever can be done manually is considered an unfair advantage, I don't think mods should then be created that do that automatically.

For example, some players manually change their water gfx to make it transparent so they can see exactly where the land meets the water.  If just one player does that, I'd consider that a form of cheating (they have an advantage, however small, over everyone else).  If everyone does it, that's technically fair but it's also just dumbed down a part of the game.  A mod could be created for that but I don't think it should be.

I feel the same way about knowing opponent worm order from the start of the game.  That's a dynamic within the game scheme that should work as intended.  Knowing just your own worm order is different because it's information you already have available to you and I imagine most people won't need / use it.

[Albus]

I am in favor of respecting the players' autonomy. If two players agree to use the module, or allow the other to use it, no one should bother, even if it's in a league game.

[Sycotropic]

Historically W:A has mostly been a game of trust and good sportsmanship. It does seem like the use of wormkit modules could get out of hand, but honestly at this point the competitive scene of W:A is pretty casual, with only a few cups and tournaments even having prize pools at all. What's the big deal if someone goes through all the trouble to use a module that gives them a slight advantage? If it starts making the game less fun for people it should be addressed, but being overly principled about it doesn't really move the community forward. I think in general the benefits of wormkit modules being released at a rapid rate outweigh the cost currently. Some of them motivate features to be added to the core game and some of them are huge quality of life improvements. I personally only really use wkSuperFrontendHD right now and tend to prefer using officially supported features, but I don't really have a problem with opponents using modules that remap keys or show my team's worm order.

For the worm order one, the fact that players can (and do) make worm names that all render the same as an empty space in-game means that there should be an in-game option to disable user-set names. It would then default to Worm{1-8}, which effectively shows turn order. I really don't think that impacts the game negatively in any way. Writing worm order on a sheet of paper or having to memorize different teams you've played with before is a lame "skill" that really just gets in the way of everyone enjoying the deeper strategy involved.

[Sycotropic]

Also, we really shouldn't be discouraging programmers who are interested in w:a to get involved by making modules or external tools unless it's going to really hurt the game. It's creative and talented people who have kept this community alive for so long!

I'm passionate about that fact because working on W:A community websites and tools when I was a kid was actually what got me excited about programming that ultimately led to my profession.

[TheKomodo]

If whatever can be done manually is considered an unfair advantage, I don't think mods should then be created that do that automatically.

For example, some players manually change their water gfx to make it transparent so they can see exactly where the land meets the water.  If just one player does that, I'd consider that a form of cheating (they have an advantage, however small, over everyone else).  If everyone does it, that's technically fair but it's also just dumbed down a part of the game.  A mod could be created for that but I don't think it should be.

I feel the same way about knowing opponent worm order from the start of the game.  That's a dynamic within the game scheme that should work as intended. 

I agree with all that, well said.

Knowing just your own worm order is different because it's information you already have available to you and I imagine most people won't need / use it.

A real example would be how tita plays CWT(which is actually allowed by the way).

Players are allowed to make new teams right before the match begins, though, considering the games are scheduled between players in advance, and even though tita makes a new team, only a fool would make a new team without at least noting down their own team order or creating the names in a way that you can memorize easy.

What's the big deal if someone goes through all the trouble to use a module that gives them a slight advantage?

The big deal is many people tend to think only in the moment, they don't contemplate what these decisions could lead to in the future.

Once we've reached a precipice, and the flood gates are open, things could get out of hand exponentially, which is why I personally think it would be best for Team17 to officially manage wormkit modules in future, if at all possible.

For the worm order one, the fact that players can (and do) make worm names that all render the same as an empty space in-game means that there should be an in-game option to disable user-set names. It would then default to Worm{1-8}, which effectively shows turn order. I really don't think that impacts the game negatively in any way.

Using blank names is not allowed in TUS, correct me if i'm wrong though i'm sure it's not allowed in CWT or ONL either.

Writing worm order on a sheet of paper or having to memorize different teams you've played with before is a lame "skill" that really just gets in the way of everyone enjoying the deeper strategy involved.

Although that is a subjective opinion, to be fair, i'd rather people didn't do that if possible, though I feel it's a much better alternative to having the game automatically track your opponents teams and weapons.

Also, we really shouldn't be discouraging programmers who are interested in w:a to get involved by making modules or external tools unless it's going to really hurt the game. It's creative and talented people who have kept this community alive for so long!

I'm passionate about that fact because working on W:A community websites and tools when I was a kid was actually what got me excited about programming that ultimately led to my profession.

I'm all for supporting developers, though as i've said before in the other relative threads, you cannot expect people to accept everything, there will be individual projects that people don't like, most people here have their own idea of what is good and bad for the game.