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April 27, 2024, 11:32 AM

Author Topic: wkWormOrder v. 1.2.0 released  (Read 23488 times)

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Offline Chicken23

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #180 on: September 19, 2021, 10:13 PM »
I've shared my thoughts in discord on this matter.

Its massively cheating and a total shame this module has been released. Frankly wreckless to the competitive league scene for worms.

Using your memory is a key skill of this game. There is a big difference between using paper and pen aids to support you, which are prone to human error and take some attention away from the turn/game. Having a tool that automates this for you, gives you enemy worm order, or even your own on screen is a massive advantage and creates an uneven playing field.

Worms is a turn based strategic game, this module is cheating in the same degree as an aimbot. Because aiming is all about memory too.

I personally feel anyone using this module in any leagues should be banned and games voided.

Offline Albus

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Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #181 on: September 19, 2021, 10:38 PM »
There are people who might prefer to play with it. I am particularly looking forward to the module that tracks enemy weapons. Even though it's not allowed in leagues, I'll have more fun in funners with these modules. I will be able to switch between windows, do other things, and still know what the opponent used.

Offline Sycotropic

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #182 on: September 20, 2021, 10:36 AM »
I've shared my thoughts in discord on this matter.

Its massively cheating and a total shame this module has been released. Frankly wreckless to the competitive league scene for worms.

Using your memory is a key skill of this game. There is a big difference between using paper and pen aids to support you, which are prone to human error and take some attention away from the turn/game. Having a tool that automates this for you, gives you enemy worm order, or even your own on screen is a massive advantage and creates an uneven playing field.

Worms is a turn based strategic game, this module is cheating in the same degree as an aimbot. Because aiming is all about memory too.

I personally feel anyone using this module in any leagues should be banned and games voided.

I don't think it's so cut and dry Chicken -- while I agree that one side having this information and the other not is a huge advantage and shouldn't be allowed in league games generally, I do think it's worth discussing the actual value of worm order memorization. As mentioned in this thread there's a lot of minutiae with regards to worm order. Players can create almost indistinguishable worm names where only they know the difference at a glance.. having to figure out what the difference is and straining your eyes to figure out what a worms name is is not my idea of fun or strategically interesting. It's also pretty common for players to keep notes on frequent opponents' worm names and to keep notes while playing on turn order and weapon usage. Isn't it sort of an unfair advantage to have a built-up repository of opponents' worm orders? Should we all be creating new teams every time we play competitively to mix up our opponents? It just seems super tedious and lame to me that the game comes down to keeping notes and trying to confuse opponents with new teams.

That being said, I do like the memorization aspects of worms, so I wonder if there could be some changes to the game itself that could remove the tedium while keeping the fun parts. What if there was a scheme option that forced all worms to have random, readable names at the beginning of a game? That way neither player has the advantage of knowing the worm order from the start and there's more strategy involved in hiding the order using selects. That same scheme option could force all worm names to be "Worm {N}" so that both players know both teams' worm orders. You may think that takes away from the game, but I actually think it has the potential to add depth when it's clear that both players know the order, especially at the lower-mid skill levels. It lowers the barrier for players with less experience being able to make more strategic decisions.


Online Sbaffo

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #183 on: September 20, 2021, 11:14 AM »
Looking forward a wormkit module that plays every game for me and wipes my ass

Offline Albus

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Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #184 on: September 20, 2021, 11:16 AM »
Looking forward a wormkit module that plays every game for me and wipes my ass

WTF
very eloquent :D
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 11:22 AM by Albus »

Offline Carmine

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #185 on: September 20, 2021, 04:53 PM »
I know theres been a whole lot of discussion about this module, id just like to check since im a bit confused.
This module only appends numbers to your own worms right? you can only see your own order and not your opponents?
which unless you were giving your worms random names every game wouldn't be an issue in of itself. was this meant for convenience for stream viewers?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 04:55 PM by Carmine »

Offline Sycotropic

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #186 on: September 20, 2021, 08:35 PM »
You can also view your opponents, but it adds a chat message saying you've enabled it.

Offline TheWalrus

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #187 on: September 20, 2021, 09:40 PM »
There are people who might prefer to play with it. I am particularly looking forward to the module that tracks enemy weapons. Even though it's not allowed in leagues, I'll have more fun in funners with these modules. I will be able to switch between windows, do other things, and still know what the opponent used.
That's going a little to far, no?  There's a reason you can't view the opponent's weapon wheel during their turn, and if it is out there, people will surely use it to gain an advantage on their opponent.  I've stayed mostly out of this discussion, but if this is allowed, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine where the blurred line of fairness once was. 

Worm order doesn't seem too outside the box, but it's a steep slope after that.  The water thing that some people use to see land beneath the water sprite is cheating to me, absolutely.  I would liken it to csgo mods to see through walls, and starcraft mods to see the opponents base without scouting.  You are no longer playing on an even playing field.  Unless it is contained in an official update that everyone has, it is modifying the game files to gain an advantage that an opponent does not have.  If people use it in 'funners' they will use it in league games, that's a fact.

In some ways I don't give a shit about worm order, but it is a skill, the same way I know where a zook is going when i shoot it into 3 bar wind.  When you shoot 10,000 zooks, you start to pick up on their trajectories over time.  When you play a turn based strategy game, over time you learn to catalog worm turn order, because otherwise you lose an edge.  I never consciously write it down, but I know which worm goes next, and the worm after that.  I've learned to compartmentalize the information. 

I've realized while writing this I really don't care which way this goes, I just hope that anyone isn't fooling themselves into thinking this program is only going to be used for funners, because it won't.  If there is anything I've learned about online games, it's that people will do anything and cheat to gain an advantage if they can, so let's not pretend like everyone in this community is a saint.

But, honestly after seeing all these different threads to the same talk about a quality of life module.

It's not a quality of life module, it allows you to make more strategic plays using information your opponent doesn't have access to.  It doesn't improve the gameplay, just the relative skill of the user, right?  If someone was skilled enough to remember the worm order before this module existed, it isnt a quality of life improvement for them.  It is only a quality of life improvement for those do not have the requisite memory to do so.  They don't allow you a chess manual when you are playing competitive chess to recall certain strategies, nor a labeling system to remember what the pieces do.  It's not because the requisite quality of life improvements don't exist to provide this chess player with this seamless recall of information in this information age we live in, it's because the choice was intentional.  It degrades the intent.  I respect both sides of this issue, but team17 not numbering the worms seems more like a conscious choice.  They prevent you from naming multiple worms the same name in the team editor, presumptively because they intended the player to remember each worm's name so they could memorize and differentiate their turn order in a turn based strategy game. 

If we follow your logic, an aimbot is a quality of life improvement, because you know, who likes shooting a weapon and missing?  I realize this is an extreme example but it follows your base logic perfectly, even you must admit that.

ADDENDUM:  My whole post is based on only one player having access to these features and it not being widely disseminated among the community. 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 09:58 PM by TheWalrus »

Offline Albus

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Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #188 on: September 20, 2021, 10:15 PM »
ADDENDUM:  My whole post is based on only one player having access to these features and it not being widely disseminated among the community.

Maybe cheaters don't need public modules to be released and then modify them. They can pay a freelancer, ask a programmer friend or even do it if they know how. After having such a program, he can also give it to friends. Also, I'm not against creating modules because people in bad faith can change them and use for cheating.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 10:17 PM by Albus »

Offline Lupastic

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #189 on: September 21, 2021, 06:08 PM »
you just ruined the whole online gaming a bit nizikawa, and you also managed to put oldtimer and newbie players in a situation in which they are seriously thinking of rather not even playing any games anymore other than races (or schemes where you play with 1-2 worms)
thanks bro 'priciate it :D

the community got even thinner by this. but hey, at least you don't need to waste too much paper and pen at your home anymore :) ;D

hero of 2021 <3 :-*

Offline Sycotropic

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #190 on: September 21, 2021, 07:34 PM »
you just ruined the whole online gaming a bit nizikawa, and you also managed to put oldtimer and newbie players in a situation in which they are seriously thinking of rather not even playing any games anymore other than races (or schemes where you play with 1-2 worms)
thanks bro 'priciate it :D

the community got even thinner by this. but hey, at least you don't need to waste too much paper and pen at your home anymore :) ;D

hero of 2021 <3 :-*

Wow what a cynical and unnecessary thing to say -- what makes you the authority on what's "ruining online gaming"? It seems to me that nizikawa has been trying to work with the community to make things better, and even though releasing some modules prematurely may seem naive, you really won't please everyone when making new modules. If anything I think it's a good motivator for competitive WA to get more serious about what's considered cheating and to shed some light on some issues surrounding modules in general. How about instead of you just complaining about the situation, try to come up with and suggest solutions to the arguably bigger problem of the ease of cheating on w:a in general.

Offline cgar

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #191 on: September 21, 2021, 07:46 PM »
Yea what the hell. Nizikawa went to the trouble of making this and many other wonderful things for us all. He has taken into account what people have said and modified it accordingly. And for that you just basically spit at him and say he is ruining the game and driving everyone away and sarcastically call him hero?

People who make awesome things should be supported, praised and congratulated, not have to deal with shit like that.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 07:48 PM by cgar »

Offline Lupastic

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #192 on: September 21, 2021, 08:22 PM »
Other than you two (+Albus <3), is there actually anyone else who liked the idea of making this order tracking module? ;D

yeah you guys seemed to love the idea and showed interest of using this module right away in your matches :-[ but.. this is gonna segregate
saying in a nutshell why this was a terrible idea: this isn't how worms armageddon (1999) meant to be played ;)  and I'll leave you at that.

Offline Lupastic

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #193 on: September 21, 2021, 08:32 PM »
Wow what a cynical and unnecessary thing to say -- what makes you the authority on what's "ruining online gaming"? It seems to me that nizikawa has been trying to work with the community to make things better, and even though releasing some modules prematurely may seem naive, you really won't please everyone when making new modules. If anything I think it's a good motivator for competitive WA to get more serious about what's considered cheating and to shed some light on some issues surrounding modules in general. How about instead of you just complaining about the situation, try to come up with and suggest solutions to the arguably bigger problem of the ease of cheating on w:a in general.

and Syc, I think you are the one whom I have seen somewhere doing a... weapon tracker module? :D really :D :D you really want to make this game as dumb as possible
how more committed you could be. :)

Offline TheKomodo

Re: wkWormOrder v. 1.1.0 released
« Reply #194 on: September 21, 2021, 09:44 PM »
I do not support this module, obviously... Though nizikawa is a skilled developer and does not deserve to be spoken to like that.

That was absolutely uncalled for Lupastic.