elite vs intermediate

[Crash]

but it's good modification for classic league scheme what u think?

[Joschi]

In my opinion, everybody who blame the "starting luck factor" didnt realized the fun of this scheme. I promise you, that nobody can seriously blame this factor for losing a bo5 game. This person just dont realise and notice all the given chances to turn a round for his advantages.
Deleting random placements would end in a gun and axe war. Nobody can be seriously interested in that. I mean, you would take the creativity factor out of the game. The same happens at reducing the time to 30 sec. The challenge of this game is that each worm on the map can be reached and killed. So its your job to use as less weapons as necessary for the biggest possible succees.

[nappy]

Deleting random placements would end in a gun and axe war. Nobody can be seriously interested in that. I mean, you would take the creativity factor out of the game. The same happens at reducing the time to 30 sec. The challenge of this game is that each worm on the map can be reached and killed. So its your job to use as less weapons as necessary for the biggest possible succees.

Ye, ye, nobody is seriously interested in elite, according to your logic. Lol.

[Aerox]

In my opinion, everybody who blame the "starting luck factor" didnt realized the fun of this scheme. I promise you, that nobody can seriously blame this factor for losing a bo5 game. This person just dont realise and notice all the given chances to turn a round for his advantages.
Deleting random placements would end in a gun and axe war. Nobody can be seriously interested in that. I mean, you would take the creativity factor out of the game. The same happens at reducing the time to 30 sec. The challenge of this game is that each worm on the map can be reached and killed. So its your job to use as less weapons as necessary for the biggest possible succees.

I'm aware that random placements is a challenging and fun aspect but it doesn't take away the fact that it's random and thus can give a handicap to a player. Can this handicap be overcome with skill? Yes. It's still a handicap whatsoever.

[Free]

What happens when you put two Darios against each other? Then it becomes pretty much a "luck" factor, no?

[MonkeyIsland]

What happens when you put two Darios against each other? Then it becomes pretty much a "luck" factor, no?

All of the schemes are like this Free

[chakkman]

Always amazing how ppl seem to have no problem with changing a scheme they hardly play but they scream "NOOOOOO" when it comes to modifying a scheme they played for years . That was aimed to the guys who play the "classic" schemes btw. I just wonder why you would want to change a scheme that every NNN guy loves to play for years and hes perfectly alright with it.

Also that Dario vs Dario comparison is some bullshit, everything can happen in a game, because no1 is perfect. Especially in a scheme like inter where creativity is needed much.

[Free]

Seems like some of you missed that I was talking about random teleport start. And when I mean Dario vs Dario, I mean both are equally creative and know the scheme equally well. And no, not all schemes are like this or even close to the same luck factor. I mean your game can be basically lost before you even get a turn, IF both are equally skilled.

I guess the luck factor goes to 50/50 in the long run, but in short-term, random placement seems like a luck factor to me. I don't MIND though, just saying.

[Dario]

Lots of things can be considered as luck factors. And in every single scheme if two players with the exact same style, skill level, strategy level and mood of the day it will be luck what decides who wins and who loses. Even if the placement of both players is equally good, it is probable that one of the players will be more comfortable with the placement he got than the opponent with his placement. Just a matter of styles.
How "big" is the luck factor introduced to the scheme by random placement is a variable impossible to isolate. I think that most times, what determines the result between two players with the same skill level is which one of them is better prepared for the situation he has to face and which one is playing better at that particular moment. Trust me on this: in Intermediate the "mood of the day" is a huge luck factor... bad luck if you are not in your best day.

Now if you want to complain about a luck factor in Inter that many times forces you to radically change your plans or ruins your hide: that is wind . If there only was a "next 5 winds" bar it'd be all fine, jeje.

[domi]

Trust me on this: in Intermediate the "mood of the day" is a huge luck factor... bad luck if you are not in your best day.

I couln't agree more with you on this matter, sir.
Like in most things we face, the psychological aspect has a great role. And for such a complex scheme like Inter (and Elite as well), it turns out to often decide the winner.

[Aerox]

Lots of things can be considered as luck factors. And in every single scheme if two players with the exact same style, skill level, strategy level and mood of the day it will be luck what decides who wins and who loses. Even if the placement of both players is equally good, it is probable that one of the players will be more comfortable with the placement he got than the opponent with his placement. Just a matter of styles.
How "big" is the luck factor introduced to the scheme by random placement is a variable impossible to isolate. I think that most times, what determines the result between two players with the same skill level is which one of them is better prepared for the situation he has to face and which one is playing better at that particular moment. Trust me on this: in Intermediate the "mood of the day" is a huge luck factor... bad luck if you are not in your best day.

Now if you want to complain about a luck factor in Inter that many times forces you to radically change your plans or ruins your hide: that is wind . If there only was a "next 5 winds" bar it'd be all fine, jeje.

Would you agree that with custom placements Intermediate would be more fair?

I'm aware of things that make other schemes and this one unfair, wind, who starts, crates etc etc, but custom placement is something we can change and I believe would ultimately make intermediate a more fair scheme league based even though it would destroy a big part of its charm and fun. I'm not saying I would agree to a change though, just adding perspective.

[Dario]

I wouldn't agree on something that could radically change the scheme.
More fair?, yes. But there are a few more things to consider:
-How unfair is the scheme as it is?. Hard to reach an agreement on that, specially if it is a discussion between people who play it in real depth and people who doesn't.
-Is it worthy to make it fair?. No way imho. Long time ago I was even someone who wanted to play it with manual placement, but after more games I started seeing that random placement just makes the scheme what it is. Intermediate without random placement is not intermediate.

[Doubletime]

Would you agree that with custom placements Intermediate would be more fair?

[/quote]

No it still wouldn't make things fair. In elite were there are in theory less luck factors. Who starts can be a huge factor on open maps with few hides. There you can use your'e first worm and put him on the top of the map meaning that any of the opponents worms can be attacked unless placed in a cave.

There are alot of luckfactors in inter. As well as in Poker. In theory poker is 100 percent luck yet a veteran poker player will win atleast 999 of 1000 vs a newcomer. Then it isn't luck. It is skill. Despite the fact that poker in it self is luck a veteran player can use that to his advantage.

Dario can win 80 games in a row vs very skilled opponent=No luck at all. Dario won because he is currently the best player. If the games were bo1 Dario might loose every 30th game due to losing 5 worms first turn. But in bo3 games dario simply wont lose unless he is drunk.

If we took an veteran oldschool elite player and asked him to play 80 tus elite games vs any givven opponent on wn that wanted to play. This player would propably be unable to do so. Because in elite the game is more focused in a way. Unlike inter were any skill level can play it elite has to be played by good players. Wich means that in theory elite would be more luck than inter due to cultural differences.

In elite were there are less luck factors. The luck factors that are there are bigger ! Like for exampel wind and starting order wich plays a more significant role in elite. If we give both opponents fort placements starting turn would still be an advantage. It is impossibel to have a 100 percent luck less scheme. In ttrr seing a superior opponent might demoralize you while seing a noob will make you less serius. And wind is still a luck factor.

In bng starting/taking best hide/getting first blow can mean victory. And wind can be something great if you want a nice zook.

Inter is fine and it is not obsessed with luck. The more skilled person will win any game. The TNL scheme sucks i mean come on. No hp reduction ? And now you want to add manuell placements and 30 secs ? what next ? Remove team weopen since it is a luck factor ? Remove all wind based weopens ? It would suck so badly. Even if you mannaged to shun all the ingame luckfactors away witch you can not. The scheme would loose its magic and peopel would stop playing it. Why not nag about all the luck factors in team 17 instead ? Or wxw were someones weopenry is nearly 100 percent luck ?

[zoky]

o cmon...
bl..bl..bl..bl..bl..
why ppl allways call some luck,or bad luck in this game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
intermediate is scheme where u need have all skills..roope,fast thinking,skills with weapons,etc...

placement...randomly is 1000000% good.like dario say..that is intermediate,and if u change that,that will not be same scheme.so what if u have bad positions.if u lose 2 worms,its normal situation,if u lose 3 so so,nothing so bad..4 u r in truble,but that is rare.simply if u have tactic,u can win any game,and there is no positions witch can u give win without ur skills.
only bl in this game can be ur bad day,when u cant do anything what U have planed.

[MonkeyIsland]

Random placements is one of the major definitions of Intermediate.

Have you seen these chess games where you must play at the middle of previously played game? The puzzle there is: 'What is your move IF you were in this situation?' 

imo random placements in intermdiate is like that. The point there is, 'How would you play if the worms were placed like this' or 'What is yoru tactic if you are stuck in this situation'.

While in elite, it is a new chess game from the very start.