elite vs intermediate

[Aerox]

I think it's totally personal matter.

You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".

That's what I was talking about, NNN's come here and praise the inter, eliters do the same for their scheme, not much of a constructive talk here and definitely not much of a conclusion.

IMO the only player here who fits your criterias, free, is mablak, and as he's right on some point, he didn't bash elite like some of you assumed!

Who here assumed Mablak was bashing Elite?

And it's fair enough to think someone is biased, I haven't played intermediate in years, but I'd rather you give me a counter if you think something I've said is unreasonable than tell me I don't know a thing about a scheme, because quite frankly I think you'd struggle to be more wrong.

[van]

Since the topic title is elite vs intermediate...

But I'm not sure you paid enough attention to what I wrote, re-do that, please,
I agree with your previous post according elite (I'm an eliter myself, ffs), although this is my opinion on the topic:

You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".

And you obviously just felt offended by not putting you into same category as mablak.

EOT for me.

[Aerox]

Since the topic title is elite vs intermediate...

But I'm not sure you paid enough attention to what I wrote, re-do that, please,
I agree with your previous post according elite (I'm an eliter myself, ffs), although this is my opinion on the topic:

You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".

And you obviously just felt offended by not putting you into same category as mablak.

EOT for me.

Why would I be offended by that? That's rich man, I couldn't care less on your opinion  because I don't value it enough to begin with, so even if you were de belittleing my statements (which I don't think you were) it wouldn't really affect me in the slightest.
I only asked you to state specificaly who you think was talking without knowing and explain why that is, as opposed to shooting bullets in random directions. Simply put I'm annoyed at the amount of posts that add absoluletly nothing to the discussion but pseudo moderation.

You think some people are wrong, you think some others are biased, fair enough, but if you cannot expose said points in a reasonable manner then why bother posting to begin with?

It's very nice, coming here and saying "DUDES POINTLESS DISCUSSING EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION", "EVERYTHING IS GOOD IN A WAY AND EVERYTHING IS BAD IN A WAY", yes, you'll get posts like this in every single topic because people wanna feel part of the heat, yet they have nothing to add and I'm probably, in a way, at fault for ranting about you guys, but we've got enough diplomat wannabes I rather we had people sharing useful information.

[Free]

I doubt anyone of us could be called as someone who knows these schemes truly by the core tbh, it's a constant evolution. There are few that dominate, but I'm sure they would agree that the more they play the more they learn. The better opponents we face, the more we grow.

If we would actually get paid to play (drools), then we would evolve into true depths of this great game.

[Aerox]

I doubt anyone of us could be called as someone who knows these schemes truly by the core tbh, it's a constant evolution. There are few that dominate, but I'm sure they would agree that the more they play the more they learn. The better opponents we face, the more we grow.

If we would actually get paid to play (drools), then we would evolve into true depths of this great game.

Les Freeman but we ain't discussing things that are too complex for us to grasp (us as in you, me). We might not be able to calculate the influence of the sheep to the exact value in both schemes to obtain the intrinsic value of its absolute worth but we can still debate the theory behind a game we've played for so long. Sometimes we just take things for granted and just play with worms, but it's also interesting once in a while to try and put words to what we do as routine: per example, on your first or second turn in an elite if you have a way to use one rope and one dyno to plop a 100hp enemy worm and retreat somewhere relatively safe you will always do it, well, perhaps not you, but most people.
You latter learn that you have to take into account how beneficial turn advantage will be so early in game for your opponent, observing his current position and turn order, you might give him an easy chance to skunk 2 of your worms, a chance non obtainable without your dyno kill, or at least not as clear - future poofing, a skill intermediate helps to learn specially thanks to the select worms.

[Free]

Yea there's nothing wrong with interesting (as long as it's interesting, instead, inter/elite rox cos I playz it) chit-chat about theory, I'm down.

I learned alot of skill (weapon skills, art of finding a kill, pixel perfect precision) from playing loads of Intermediate and I feel it requires much more ability to focus than elite.

I developed a really "deep and tactical" eye from playing and watching (I've watched like 400 WEL replays) shitloads of Elites and I feel that Intermediate as a scheme doesn't enable to go this deep and offer the amount of tactical variety. You really learn how to use the map (controlling chokepoints etc.), limit the moves opponent can do (advanced girder tactics, pushing opponent into certain chokepoint, sacrificing worms in order to get rope advantage etc.) and overall how to be creative about map & worm control since you don't have much utility to use.

There's A LOT of tactical elements in Intermediate also, I just feel that in overall it doesn't offer as much tactical variety as Elite does. Where one might think he's cracked the puzzle by developing a set of "good & safe" tactics (to untrained eye elite might look like this), he simply haven't played enough against very good eliters that actually do everything to make you play their game. There's only a few eliter's whom I consider to have very good tactical eye also instead just good situational based eye. For me, it's not about waiting to opponent make mistakes, it's about forcing him to make them.

Without playing Intermediate I wouldn't be this good in Elite and vice versa. Both are really good schemes once you get to like them. Nowadays I prefer Elite as the amount of focus needed in Intermediate is overwhelming to me (even though I like to play chess).

[NAiL]

Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.

Not true, the same situation occurs during inter.

If you'd played enough of it then you'd realise that turns requiring every last one of the 45 seconds you have occur far more frequently than you would assume by saying such a thing!

I agree with you that neither scheme is harder, although inter inarguably requires more knowledge and a greater range of skills, seeing as there are more weapons, rope knocks, and utilities.

[Koras]

Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.

Not true, the same situation occurs during inter.

If you'd played enough of it then you'd realise that turns requiring every last one of the 45 seconds you have occur far more frequently than you would assume by saying such a thing!

ow yea that's what I mean... try to kill 2x1 hp worms after sd(in cave!)  

That's what I was talking about, NNN's come here and praise the inter, eliters do the same for their scheme, not much of a constructive talk here and definitely not much of a conclusion.

Not really,there is 54 posts..... only 3 of them are posted by NNN members (one of them "I agree with Mablak")

[Aerox]

Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.

Not true, the same situation occurs during inter.

If you'd played enough of it then you'd realise that turns requiring every last one of the 45 seconds you have occur far more frequently than you would assume by saying such a thing!

I agree with you that neither scheme is harder, although inter inarguably requires more knowledge and a greater range of skills, seeing as there are more weapons, rope knocks, and utilities.

I suggest you read before getting all defensive next time.

The amount of movement weapons trivializes the clock in many turns regardless of the fact that many perfect turns require the whole turn time and even more which in turn allows for mistakes in planning your movement

[Dario]

I think that ropa isn't completely wrong. I agree that you will need walking/jumping perfection in elite more often than in Intermediate in order to save time. Still at intermediate it isn't strange to waste a chute/bungee or even a rope because you failed a jump and need to use an utility in order to reach the target in time.
Besides that when playing intermediate I think you are more often exposed to harder jumps, or at least you can go for harder jumps knowing that if you fail the first attempt  you will most likely have a second chance or third chance.
The situation is quite different when using LG. In turns that begin with it your target is usually quite far away and you will most likely be reaching it with barely enough time to do what you need to do precisely, even if you didn't miss a single jump.

Regarding Free's point of view about Intermediate deep tactics, I think you would have to study the scheme as much as you've studied Elite in order to make a valid/objective affirmation about it. I have probably spent as much (if not more) time -years- and effort -horus a day- on studying the strategy in it -screenshot the starting situation and play the whole round in my mind- and I can easily say that the depth of Intermediate strategy is as overwhelming to me as Elite tactics are to you.
Maybe it'd take someone like Mablak (recognized as one of the best in both schemes) to do such analysis, and it'd still be an opinion after all .

[Free]

I don't disagree at all Dario, hence why in the first post I said that we need players that really know both schemes from the core. Mablak is respected at elite but IMO he's more of a "good & safe" player (you know I still love you baby) instead being the one who tries to push and knows he can do it. Like I said there's only a few who I think sees elite from a very deep perspective.

It's just my opinion that Intermediate doesn't offer as much variety tactic-wise (in Inter you basically attack every turn, in elite you need to build attacks and use the map more than in Intermediate IMO), but yea I'm not experienced enough to make real judgements, like I said on my first post... but I do like the theory chit-chat.

[NAiL]

Inter is harder in that,

More worms, more choices, more decisons, + no denying the fact that remembering all 8 worms and the weapon situation of your opponant is inarguably harder to do so than in elite.

Free is right though, not much room for any commando or tactics in inter the same way as in elite, most games you'll  just try to kill or damage a worm every turn (or wteva u know what i mean, both schemes are very different tactically).

And of course we must remember that the luck factor of random placement, even in bo7 games, can still play a huge part in deciding whether or not you win or lose a game. But lets not forget people like Dario win with what was it like 80 games won in a row on NNN league? This disproves the argument of people who say that inter is 90% determined by your starting positions.

[Crash]

45 seconds is too long?
30 perfect? what ya think

[Crash]

if intermediate would have 30s and 8worms teleport manual it could became a clasic league scheme, what ya think?

[MonkeyIsland]

30s turn and telestart is not 'intermediate'.