Markings on your monitor- okay or not?

[Random00]

In short, you're bringing a derivatives table to a derivatives test, not to an integrals test. Can your teacher allow that to happen?

you're reducing a whole Elite game to 1 turn of this game where you attack with kamikaze (cause at the moment, thats the only visual aid I use in Elite). And even there you need to figure out how to reach the spot where you can launch the kami.
I think there's a big difference between that.

If my aiming skills were perfect, I would won every Elite, yeah.

there's a slight difference between having perfect aiming skills and using visual aids. Correct me if I'm wrong.

He generalized what I answered. Just so it doesn't look as dumb as it is.

I didnt refer to your post, so I dont think I generalized anything you said.

If there is more important thing than aiming at Worms, then we didn't play the same game.

We probably didnt play the same game then. It surely depends on the scheme, skill of players, etc. how important technical and tactical components are.
I have one question there: What exactly do you mean by "aiming"?
If you mean every aspect of technical mastering a weapon, then I have to admit that this is the most important thing in almost every single worms game.

[Abnaxus]

you're reducing a whole Elite game to 1 turn of this game where you attack with kamikaze (cause at the moment, thats the only visual aid I use in Elite).

And notching ?

there's a slight difference between having perfect aiming skills and using visual aids. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nop, is the same if well done.

I didnt refer to your post, so I dont think I generalized anything you said.

I refered to your post, and detailled it.
So "you generalized" what I said.

If there is more important thing than aiming at Worms, then we didn't play the same game.

We probably didnt play the same game then. It surely depends on the scheme, skill of players, etc. how important technical and tactical components are.
I have one question there: What exactly do you mean by "aiming"?
If you mean every aspect of technical mastering a weapon, then I have to admit that this is the most important thing in almost every single worms game.

On every scheme, with every players, etc.. You have to kill your opponent. Which is done by aiming and shooting.

[Random00]

And notching ?

You can notch without any visual aid. I know that you dont like notching, but this discussion is about visual aids, so lets focus on this, ok?

there's a slight difference between having perfect aiming skills and using visual aids. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nop, is the same if well done.

I find it pretty obvious that its not the same. There are tons of example where you obviously can't be (a lot) better with some visual aid such as a paper: flying a supersheep, missile, airstrike/napalm, even every nade, zook shot that is not full power... basically: almost every shot possible. You can improve certain aspects of various weapons, but there are just very few weapons where you gain perfection by simply using some visual aid (kamikaze is the only one I can think of at the moment).

On every scheme, with every players, etc.. You have to kill your opponent. Which is done by aiming and shooting.

We're not talking on the same level here. If you're a lot better in tactical aspects (for example in Elite) than your opponent, you can easily beat him, even if he's slightly better in technical aspects (e.g. tossing nades/dyna drops/missile launching/etc).

[Abnaxus]

You can notch without any visual aid. I know that you dont like notching, but this discussion is about visual aids, so lets focus on this, ok?

Ok, seems fair.

I find it pretty obvious that its not the same. There are tons of example where you obviously can't be (a lot) better with some visual aid such as a paper: flying a supersheep, missile, airstrike/napalm, even every nade, zook shot that is not full power... basically: almost every shot possible. You can improve certain aspects of various weapons, but there are just very few weapons where you gain perfection by simply using some visual aid (kamikaze is the only one I can think of at the moment).

If I get some time to lose, I'll draw you a perfect way to 100% succeed your nade shots.
In addition, we were taking about aiming and visual aids (so half of your text is senseless there); or we don't have the same meaning of "aiming".

We're not talking on the same level here. If you're a lot better in tactical aspects (for example in Elite) than your opponent, you can easily beat him, even if he's slightly better in technical aspects (e.g. tossing nades/dyna drops/missile launching/etc).

A lot better means your opponent is near 0 strategy, which is pretty rare.
With your elite skills, against a decent player + 100% shots succeed, you'll lose: Anyway.

[StepS]

.

sorry, i just meant the next beta. I don't know where the numbers arrived from in my head
I've had talks with Deadcode and he said that he already implemented RubberWorm into WA (without graphical interface yet), except black hole and the Kawoosh's new features. A few days later, we've brought him the source code of rubber worm. He didn't look at it yet, but he will as soon as possible.
Sorry

[Random00]

Then let's agree to disagree, Abnaxus. Since its just a theoretical experiment, noone of us is able to get some proof, so I think its best to stop this Elite discussion ^^

[Abnaxus]

Nicely said.

[Chicken23]

Imo, nearly every player in the top20 tel standings has some visual aid for kamikaze. It just makes playing more accurate and the quality of the games is better.

I don't, I use my menory and experience and sometimes i miss, sometimes I hit a kami for 56 damage... but then again.. Im not in the top 20 tel.. :p

It would be lame to get some kind of paper with markings on and line up before your kami shot.

WORMSCON IS COMING!!!

Colon just sent me my plane tickets in the mail the other day.  I'm excited!

lmao!

But what do U do with the rule that cannot be controlled or judged? It's set there just to suit our moral criteria? 

I kinda agree, even having the rule there, people will still abuse the system. But those that do abide the law will think twice about using visual aids.

KRD also sums up everything nicely.


And it comes down to the different personalities as Cueshark pointed out. The majority of people will not use visual aids or will not notch. Thats enough to keep me playing..

[Mablak]

I wish there were more votes, but most people seem to think markings should be illegal; not just 'lame', but illegal. And some who voted yes just did so because it's unenforceable, but might still follow it if it's a rule.

There hasn't really been a good argument for allowing this stuff other than unenforceability, but once again, no one seems to be arguing that due to that, we should allow macros. We just need a short sentence in the rules:

*No using any kind of external aids while playing (for example, using a ruler to help you aim).

That covers pretty much all the crap we've been talking about, kami rulers, markings... audio CDs you recorded of yourself listing BnG distances. As afraid as some people are that this will give noobs evil ideas (although hardly anyone fully reads the rules), a lot of them will surely take it to heart and not even think about 'clever' ways to aim, knowing they're illegal.

[TheWalrus]

WORMSCON IS COMING!!!

Colon just sent me my plane tickets in the mail the other day.  I'm excited!

lmao!

I'm glad one person still here that actually remembers!  +1 chicken

[Anubis]

I voted yes simply because their are markings nonetheless. (mine says Samsung all over the lower middle).
It's like forbidding people to remap their keys because they have a bad keyboard / keylock. Might sound exaggerated but if someone wants to legally use markings he/she will just get a monitor that is old, some even have important notes attached to the monitor, same thing as a visual aid by that definition. And since there is no rule against any form of hardware it's pretty obvious the rule is unremarkable.

[Mablak]

I voted yes simply because their are markings nonetheless. (mine says Samsung all over the lower middle).
It's like forbidding people to remap their keys because they have a bad keyboard / keylock. Might sound exaggerated but if someone wants to legally use markings he/she will just get a monitor that is old, some even have important notes attached to the monitor, same thing as a visual aid by that definition. And since there is no rule against any form of hardware it's pretty obvious the rule is unremarkable.

Pretty much every monitor has buttons or a logo near the middle, using those are perfectly fine. I really don't think there are any monitors in existence that come with grids on them or anything too excessive. Just look at the google image search for computer monitors.

Of course, it's possible for such a monitor to exist. But I think the community would choose to disallow it at that point, as they should, since it takes away a fair bit of skill. This is similar to the subject of padding your spacebar, except in that case, some people might already start with sensitive kbs; with monitors, there's no way any wormer has started with a gridded one.

[Anubis]

So what's the difference in measuring shots with letters / signs of your monitor instead of ones you made yourself? The result is the same, a visual aid. Your logic fails to me.

[Abnaxus]

I agree with Anu there. 

[Mablak]

So what's the difference in measuring shots with letters / signs of your monitor instead of ones you made yourself? The result is the same, a visual aid. Your logic fails to me.

Because it's a natural limit where everyone is basically on equal ground, since there are no particularly special monitors out there. And because buttons/logos aren't markings that are tailor-made for WA, so the advantage you get is only so high.

But yeah, we could ask that people who use those existing markings cover them up or simply avoid using them. I mean, that would make more sense than essentially requiring that everyone have a marking system pasted onto the bottom of their monitor. Yeah why not, let's say buttons and logos are visual aids too.