WA Cheating, Implication, and Legacy

[TheKomodo]

In general, not limited to just this game, cheaters are lowlife, scumbag, cowardly pathetic shells of a human husk and deserve everything bad that ever happens to them, period. In all walks of life.

Also, anyone who supports cheaters, or is too scared or hesitant to confront them, outcast them, ridicule them, because they are more worried about upsetting people... You're just as bad if not worse for being too weak and should feel ashamed. Somebody has to say it because we've lost our way and it's getting ridiculous again.

This community in general shows a lack of discipline and negativity towards cheaters, something which we used to actually commonly be against and stamp out swiftly.

This has always been my opinion and always will be my opinion, I hope everyone who cheats suffers in one way or another.

This is a hill I will glady die on.

I should also mention I'm strictly talking about people who cheat against other people, not people who like to cheat in single player games which legitimately have cheats in there for the purpose of creating other ways to play the game(I'm looking at you, Goldeneye 64). I'm talking about deception and deceit against legit players/people in a competitive environment.

[King-Gizzard]

I saw this on that WA 4chan page - I know Silkworm was Deadcode's cheat program back in the day, I'm not sure about this "Silkworm 2" though ?

https://i.4cdn.org/vm/1737530372982769.webm

[TheKomodo]

Noobs, honestly... They will remain pathetic cheating cowards until the day they die, and everyone will remember them for being a complete waste of time.

[TheWalrus]

Why not expand the discussion about cheating instead of reducing it to roping scripts? Let's talk about the clear water publicly available for download on a public page at https://worms2d.info/Water_color_editor ? And why does no one question the fact that a WA developer plays the Team17 crates scheme without seeming suspicious? I wonder if this is hypocrisy or collegiality.

to be fair, t17 was dc's favorite scheme before he became a dev or developed programs for wa

[j0e]

I also don't believe for a second that Deadcode cheats. That is a crazy accusation.  He does have a extremely precise understanding about how everything works, easily better than the best NNN player.  So you're likely to witness many pixel-precise jumps, subpixel alignments of things, and you may get slapped with a time-expiring Homing Missile or random oddities you've never even witnessed before.  But it's all earned through years of self-torture lol.

In general, not limited to just this game, cheaters are lowlife, scumbag, cowardly pathetic shells of a human husk and deserve everything bad that ever happens to them, period. In all walks of life.

Scumbag? Sure.  Lowlife, sure.  Cheating probably has an overall harmful effect on something that is good, so it's a shitty and selfish thing to do.

Shell of a human?  Not really.  "Empty shell" applies to anyone who makes something insignificant the defining characteristic of their being and centre of their life.  It's not really related - some people just cheat because they don't give a shit and it's a shortcut to having skill, or they find it enjoyable.

[Corujão]

Due to major misunderstandings (distortions): The community work that DeadCode does is indisputably exceptional and I believe that this is not the point of the discussion. I learned a lot from him, observing his skills in replays and even playing together in the Team17 scheme.

The main criticism is aimed at the pseudomoralists who are selective in their questioning rather than impartial. It is easy to dismiss legitimate concerns and label them as "crazy accusations" when they involve someone with high status in the community.

No one is saying that someone's skill was conquered illegally, but completely ignoring any possibility of advantage or special convenience is naive. This is not about frivolous accusations, but rather about reflect how supposed practices can be veiled and tolerated depending on who performs them.

It is known that cheating should not be relativized or encouraged, but I see that many people are limited in the interpretation of texts here or do so in a biased manner, distorting the narrative. Dramatic people and those exaggerating the seriousness of the game usually rely on long and endless discussions to appear more moralistic than others. Eventually, It's satisfying to see MonkeyIsland intervenes and removes responses when things get out of control.

And if anyone reading this feels offended by this statement, it's because the shoe fits.

For me, it is no longer worth fostering this discussion.

[j0e]

Due to major misunderstandings (distortions): The community work that DeadCode does is indisputably exceptional and I believe that this is not the point of the discussion. I learned a lot from him, observing his skills in replays and even playing together in the Team17 scheme.

The main criticism is aimed at the pseudomoralists who are selective in their questioning rather than impartial. It is easy to dismiss legitimate concerns and label them as "crazy accusations" when they involve someone with high status in the community.

No one is saying that someone's skill was conquered illegally, but completely ignoring any possibility of advantage or special convenience is naive. This is not about frivolous accusations, but rather about reflect how supposed practices can be veiled and tolerated depending on who performs them.

It is known that cheating should not be relativized or encouraged, but I see that many people are limited in the interpretation of texts here or do so in a biased manner, distorting the narrative. Dramatic people and those exaggerating the seriousness of the game usually rely on long and endless discussions to appear more moralistic than others. Eventually, It's satisfying to see MonkeyIsland intervenes and removes responses when things get out of control.

And if anyone reading this feels offended by this statement, it's because the shoe fits.

For me, it is no longer worth fostering this discussion.

Sorry dude, my choice of words in "crazy accusation" was maybe not very thoughtful. I just meant that I strongly don't believe it to to be true, not that it's impossible.

Consider this:  when Deadcode's Silkworm 3.5 (private cheat version) was leaked, he countered with Silkworm 4.12 (anti-cheat version) which somehow disabled cheating features of Silkworm 3.5 for everyone in the game if anyone had 4.12 installed.  4.12 was also necessary for Windows XP/2000 compatibility so almost everyone had it.  Super slick and effective solution, all before he even got the source code and all for free. I'm sure it was a monumentally massive brain-splitting effort for him to do this.  Guy has devoted so much time to improving WA and preventing cheats that I just felt an obligation to defend him.  I can see your point about refusing to question certain members of the community, but c'mon it's Deadcode.

[Kaleu]

Dramatic people and those exaggerating the seriousness of the game usually rely on long and endless discussions to appear more moralistic than others. Eventually, It's satisfying to see MonkeyIsland intervenes and removes responses when things get out of control.

Real.

I can never keep up with such level of mental exhaustion. That's how they win, by making you lose interest over mucho texto.

Upon reflection, we realize that all the opinions we have formed so far come from a single person who is extremely frustrated with the game (having not played it enough in the last 15 years) and traumatized in real life.

Everyone is accepting the narrative of a biased person who does not respect the historical facts of someone who has gone through this (which was me) and only spews hatred and dissatisfaction stemming from their personality.

Ideally, each person should test and draw their own conclusions, instead of believing in narratives from someone who didn't even have the capacity to test to form an opinion but relyng only in their feelings.

[Kradie]

I see that there is one person who thinks it is okay to cheat, while the rest do not. This is just an observation.

If a person thinks it is acceptable to cheat in an online multiplayer game, then their ethical stance likely extends to real-life activities such as board games, card games, football, basketball, and more.

People who voted "No" in this topic surely have a stronger sense of ethics and a better moral compass. I can assume that people like this can enjoy video games, board games, and other activities by simply playing fairly. The moment someone introduces aids, cheats, or enhancements, it disrupts the integrity of the activity. The person engaging in such behavior might say, "Don't take it seriously." To begin with, I don't think anyone was taking it too seriously. However, the moment an anomaly was introduced by a third party, people naturally started to take issue with it. The perpetrator may perceive this as others taking things too seriously, but in reality, cheating is a serious matter. It is reassuring to see that most people have voted "No" so far.

[TheKomodo]

Good, nice to see most people vote no even if they don't have the guts to call them out for it.

Cheaters are scumbags, period. Including those who try defending the fact they used to cheat.

I also love reading delusional comments that live outside reality, keep them coming lol.

[Kradie]

Good, nice to see most people vote no even if they don't have the guts to call them out for it.

Cheaters are scumbags, period. Including those who try defending the fact they used to cheat.

I also love reading delusional comments that live outside reality, keep them coming lol.

I also like that because I think I am part of your assessment    

[FoxHound]

I don't usually opine much about cheating after wkWormOrder issues. I like the concept of that module, but people are seeking for the first version of that module until today. It's a very small advantage that people could have writing on paper, but the community considers this cheating. I think what the community considers as cheating should always be respected. Although this community discusses for very minor details sometimes that I think it's sometimes unnecessary. For example I'm now experimenting a new medication for my ADHD. That medication can be considered dopping, maybe? I don't know. There are things that are out of our control, like using a ruler to aim on the screen. It's a matter to trust people or accept this.

I'm always against cheating, even on chess and board games. I'm just stating my opinion here, after Komito's post. But being against cheating is something so obvious, it's sad that there are people that don't understand this.

[Kaleu]

@FoxHound

I am against cheating as well, but only when it comes to obvious cheating modules/software, like crate spy, aim assist, etc.

My point is: I don't consider the rope script cheating because it's still up for debate. It hasn't been discussed thoroughly enough so far, most of you have just read the opinion of a frustrated community member instead of testing it yourselves. What Shtaket was using was probably a macro and not the script I'm referring to.

I stand by what I say. I will never back down from this, even if all of you call me a cheater (I'm not using it, by the way, you can check my replays as much as you want).
I consider the script an enhancement because the same results can be achieved with good hardware. Period.

If it bothers people, it's because they spent a fortune on hardware and are now upset that money alone isn't enough to take them to the next level.

[Kradie]

If scripts and software are automated, it is cheat.

Keyboard is not automated unless software is Involved.

Everyone can get software to simulate what hardware can.

Simulating what hardware can do with software, is hack. Counter argument: Modifying keyboard is hack as well.

I have noticed now a trend. There is software, and there is hardware. Some think that software is not cheat, and that it can replace and simulate certain hardware capabilities. Just as much as hardware can do with software. BUT, here is thing.. When you engage with hardware, this require the physical you, your muscles and reflexes are in play. YES, I am aware of this argument ''Rope Script, can be very difficult and harder to master.''. However, automation/aid is still Involved, and you can acquire significant advantage once you fully mastered it. It is still not part of the game itself. It is like to bring drug enhancement to sport games and claim it is a new experience.

I hope Rocket can forgive me to Include him in my post but hear me out. As I gathered by online activities with Rocket, he does not have anything fancy hardware and equipment. He uses a very tired and aged laptop and still kicks ass, and does not use any script enhancing performance automation booster. Simply because he does not need it. You can make it big with 10$ keyboard cheaper or expensive.

To collect good hardware of whatever kind is just a hobby, part of an Interest of a person. This is normal. You may not have the greatest, but that does not mean you have to sink to the lowest.

[j0e]

Anything that emulates one physical action to one single keypress = legit.  Whether it's a button on your keyboard, controller, etc.

Anything that creates multiple inputs from just one action = cheating.  Whether it's a physical button on your keyboard or a macro.

WkKeyRemap (an old module) is considered cheating because it registers the next keypress before the previous key-up is received.  So you can have multiple spacebars and tap quickly without having to time your finger roll accurately. It's not a macro, just an oversight of the program author. Technically the action of pressing the key down and then back up are two distinct physical actions.

WkRemapKeys (current module) is legit because it discards multiple keypresses if the key is still in key-down state. Just like a real keyboard.

Wooting/fancy keyboards that have an intermediate stop on the spacebar, so a half-actuation presses space once, and a full actuation presses twice, are a grey area.  If you accept that one hard press = one physical action, it's cheating according to my definition above, because you get two physical inputs from one action. Maybe my definition is wrong.

Some cheats are worse than others.  WkWormOrder, transparent water/background soil, and arguably Wooting keyboards would be on one end of the villain spectrum, and advanced aimbots on the other end.  We really shouldn't vilify people equally.  Also frequency of cheating is another factor in one's level of villainny.