The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Worms: Armageddon => General discussion => Topic started by: Peja on July 30, 2011, 11:52 AM
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BnG, TTRR, or elite?
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Can't be compared.
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ye d1 is right.
peja man wtf u opening threads like a crazy lately XD
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bl pejaxD
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i think peja didn't meant to compare the schemes, just asked which scheme is the hardest and requires the most skillz.
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i think peja didn't meant to compare the schemes, just asked which scheme is the hardest and requires the most skillz.
;)t
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I know :) But I still think they can't be compared.
I know, because I'm equally inadequate in all those schemes!
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i think RR. if you compare a perfect RR TA run with an hypothetical bng flawless game i think theres more difference between them and current human skill in the rr scheme
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i think RR. if you compare a perfect RR TA run with an hypothetical bng flawless game i think theres more difference between them and current human skill in the rr scheme
What about the almost infinite possibilities of action in Elite then? More possible actions = more room for perfection? :P This is a question that cannot be answered imo.
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RR :P
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What about the almost infinite possibilities of action in Elite then? More possible actions = more room for perfection? :P This is a question that cannot be answered imo.
Then Intermediate > Elite, mate xd
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1.rr
2.bng
3.elite
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bl peja, nt tho.. gl and gg! hahuahauh
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Intermediate IMO. It requires many weapons usage knowledge, knowledge of basic tactic actions, strategic thinking ability, basic rope, jetpack, bungee, battle race skills...
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WA in general.
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del
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komo just summed it up in 3 words.. lol :D
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RR has very little translation from other schemes.
Whilst the others have many things in common, if you master all schemes except elite or intermediate, it will take you only a couple of games to become competitive at them. Doesn't happen in RR no matter how good of a roper you are.
The skill in elite is not really imposed by the scheme but your opponent, is more of a mind battle so it'd be hard to theorycraft about maximun skill limits.
Bng is definetly not the hardest. Provided inhuman practice I'm pretty sure a couple of players currently playing could achieve something close to a game were they hit every turn for +40 damage, which is not perfect, but it's much closer than comparing Mablak (or whoever is good at RR nowdays) to a tool assisted replay in a RR.
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RR has very little translation from other schemes.
Whilst the others have many things in common, if you master all schemes except elite or intermediate, it will take you only a couple of games to become competitive at them. Doesn't happen in RR no matter how good of a roper you are.
The skill in elite is not really imposed by the scheme but your opponent, is more of a mind battle so it'd be hard to theorycraft about maximun skill limits.
Bng is definetly not the hardest. Provided inhuman practice I'm pretty sure a couple of players currently playing could achieve something close to a game were they hit every turn for +40 damage, which is not perfect, but it's much closer than comparing Mablak (or whoever is good at RR nowdays) to a tool assisted replay in a RR.
Actually ropa the same thing goes for tool assisted BnG.
^^ Or Tool assisted anything... The Missions are ridiculously awesome, to me much more impressive than TTRR.
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im thinking fly shoppa
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im thinking fly shoppa
but only the big once
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RR has very little translation from other schemes.
Whilst the others have many things in common, if you master all schemes except elite or intermediate, it will take you only a couple of games to become competitive at them. Doesn't happen in RR no matter how good of a roper you are.
The reason for this is volume, volume, volume. Elite and RR have always had a higher popularity than BnG, so more people tried getting good at them. In RR, there's also the factor of map familiarity.
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Also got to take in account how hardcore someone is lol xD
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elite way to play have changed dratically since edited maps were introduted too. imo these full of hides maps gave some advantage for those players who dunno what to do in the game and just hide, keep nading and zooking and w8 till SD to see what happens, of course skilled players go more sucess doesnot matter the maps, but times ago you could win an elite vs a non-skilled player without w8 for sd lol
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comet dodging
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comet dodging
xD
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Intermediate
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Comet dogging indeed
Nah seriously :
1. TTRR (if we remove the cheat issue)
2. BNG
3. Intermediate/Kaos
Also the schemes where luck doesnt take part or takes just a bit can be :
1. Super sheep race (0% luck)
2. bungee race (0% luck)
3. TTRR (1% luck (just wind at chute fall))
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I still say that there's more difference between the best Roperacer and a tool assisted replay of someone roperacing THAN BETWEEN a tool assisted BnG and the best BnGer.
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im only used to this tools (http://www.caribbeanfever.com/img/powertoolsex.jpg)
can u pls explain what you mean roper?
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No one has love for the ropers anymore eh?
Every time someone complains about cr8s or says that it is a luck scheme it makes me almost vomit.
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No one has love for the ropers anymore eh?
Every time someone complains about cr8s or says that it is a luck scheme it makes me almost vomit.
it's probably one of the most luck based schemes. that doesn't take away the fact you can make luck a non factor with the use of skill.
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No one has love for the ropers anymore eh?
Every time someone complains about cr8s or says that it is a luck scheme it makes me almost vomit.
it's probably one of the most luck based schemes. that doesn't take away the fact you can make luck a non factor with the use of skill.
Sorry but lol. Do you get that if you can take out luck with skills, it simply mean luck is not involved ?
Edit: In case you start babling about non rational argument:
luck [lʌk]
n
1. events that are beyond control and seem subject to chance; fortune
[http://www.thefreedictionary.com/luck]
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No one has love for the ropers anymore eh?
Every time someone complains about cr8s or says that it is a luck scheme it makes me almost vomit.
it's probably one of the most luck based schemes. that doesn't take away the fact you can make luck a non factor with the use of skill.
Sorry but lol. Do you get that if you can take out luck with skills, it simply mean luck is not involved ?
Edit: In case you start babling about non rational argument:
luck [lʌk]
n
1. events that are beyond control and seem subject to chance; fortune
[http://www.thefreedictionary.com/luck]
no it doesn't. it means that providing enough skill luck can be countered. but when facing skills of equal leve against one another then luck is a deciding factor.
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Sorry, but thats hypothetical talk about machine skill. Noone is that perfect, every1 makes mistakes and even small mistakes decide a game sometimes.
Anyway blaming luck is for bad losers. :) Same like the never ending lameness discussion on the bng scheme. People need to change not schemes.
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Well let's not do too much off topic but I disagre with you. For me, something "that are beyond control" can not by anymeans be controled :).
I guess it's another point of view from this word that I admit can be interpreted in many different way.
Edit: To answer the topic, I think it's pretty hard. In my opinion, there is no classic scheme that need a lot more time to be an expert if you start from level 0.
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One thing for sure, is that roper is pretty luck related.
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No one has love for the ropers anymore eh?
Every time someone complains about cr8s or says that it is a luck scheme it makes me almost vomit.
Agreed!! +1
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I still say that there's more difference between the best Roperacer and a tool assisted replay of someone roperacing THAN BETWEEN a tool assisted BnG and the best BnGer.
If you take into account consistency, you will find theres more of a difference in BnG actually compared to TTRR with the best TTRR, Mab finishes every turn at his best, so does the program, but faster, I guess I am the most consistent BnG player there is, and even I go alot of games with like a 20% hit ratio, whilst DeadCodes tool can hit anywhere in anyway 100%.
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I still say that there's more difference between the best Roperacer and a tool assisted replay of someone roperacing THAN BETWEEN a tool assisted BnG and the best BnGer.
If you take into account consistency, you will find theres more of a difference in BnG actually compared to TTRR with the best TTRR, Mab finishes every turn at his best, so does the program, but faster, I guess I am the most consistent BnG player there is, and even I go alot of games with like a 20% hit ratio, whilst DeadCodes tool can hit anywhere in anyway 100%.
Yes Komo but it wouldn't be crazy to think that you could reach a closer percentage in BnG if you went all out and tried like you had nothing else to care about in life, right?
Imo, if Mablak did the same with RR he'd never reach the level of TA DC replays, not even close, mainly because it's inhumane.
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I still say that there's more difference between the best Roperacer and a tool assisted replay of someone roperacing THAN BETWEEN a tool assisted BnG and the best BnGer.
If you take into account consistency, you will find theres more of a difference in BnG actually compared to TTRR with the best TTRR, Mab finishes every turn at his best, so does the program, but faster, I guess I am the most consistent BnG player there is, and even I go alot of games with like a 20% hit ratio, whilst DeadCodes tool can hit anywhere in anyway 100%.
Yes Komo but it wouldn't be crazy to think that you could reach a closer percentage in BnG if you went all out and tried like you had nothing else to care about in life, right?
Imo, if Mablak did the same with RR he'd never reach the level of TA DC replays, not even close, mainly because it's inhumane.
Nah mate, I always stood by BnG and TTRR is as hard/skillful as each other but in different concepts, like programs make roping faster, programs make BnG more consistent, and tbh, those are equally important and the main goal in each scheme, so it's 50/50 imo.
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ropa is right komo... think of it like this...
you have had perfect bng games... either a sink first shot, or just say 5 40+ shots in a row.... you have played a perfect bng...
where as no1 will ever play a perfect bngttrr ... its impossible
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ropa is right komo... think of it like this...
you have had perfect bng games... either a sink first shot, or just say 5 40+ shots in a row.... you have played a perfect bng...
where as no1 will ever play a perfect bngttrr ... its impossible
No, I haven't, I have never done full damage every single turn, plopping a worm isn't a perfect game, it's just a perfect shot.
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did the game end after that perfect shot?...
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I know you haven't achieved such feats Komo, and that most likely you or no one will ever will.
But still, I feel the skill is closer because it's inside the realm of possibility that one person could achieve something close to a perfect bng game whilst in RR it's virtually impossible because I don't think we have that kind of reflexes in current human beings.
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If our brain was connected into the motion, and you would not need to press anything I think we could get a lot closer, but Worms is a physical game, in our thoughts we all can do those things and I am sure some would be able to practice the perfect timing where taps are not limited to the body reflexes. Isn't it still true that there is no chess AI out performing the best human players?
There is a reason why we often blame the kb / fingers for our failure. It's because we are body and hardware limited. I often imagined the craziest things in warmer but they were simply not possible because my body wouldn't perform that action fast enough.
Oh and btw, DC tool is a time-reverting Tool. If it worked realtime it would fail a lot more if the map is scanned real time (not like before the turn starts the CPU needs to scan the map) everything in real time I think we could outperform.
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Isn't it still true that there is no chess AI out performing the best human players?
Nope. Humans are getting trounced nowadays.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2476
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2758
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3524
Especially the first one is painful.
Hell, they allowed a chess program that's run on a mobile phone play in a grandmaster tournament and it won by a huge margin: http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/twic771.html#13
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If our brain was connected into the motion, and you would not need to press anything I think we could get a lot closer, but Worms is a physical game, in our thoughts we all can do those things and I am sure some would be able to practice the perfect timing where taps are not limited to the body reflexes. Isn't it still true that there is no chess AI out performing the best human players?
There is a reason why we often blame the kb / fingers for our failure. It's because we are body and hardware limited. I often imagined the craziest things in warmer but they were simply not possible because my body wouldn't perform that action fast enough.
oO
+1.000
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TTRR definitely takes the most skill. (Although map familiarity has can make a huge difference between similarly-skilled players.) You either win or you lose, and one second can make all the difference. BNG does take skill, but even a relative newbie can still drop their opponent's HP bar quite a bit before the match is over. The terrain and placement are also never identical in BNG games, easily giving one person a decided advantage if they manage to get first dibs on placement. All schemes require some degree of skill; however, when you compare the learning curves of proficient roping and proficient shot-making, it's really a no-brainer. TTRR is definitely more difficult.
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You are kinda missing my point avirex, we are talking about skill, not winning here, if the topic was "whats the easiest way to win" I think BnG would storm that vote with all my 1st turn plops i've done.
But it's not, so it isn't, it's about skill, and I think hitting 46dmg every single turn for eternity is just as skillful as roping as fast as possible in the way I have already explained, anyway, no one can BnG or TTRR as good as his program, bearing in mind, i've actually seen it and used it so I DO know what I am talking about, i've seen the stuff you can do in BnG and if a Human could do that, it's just as impressive as Roping, but this all comes down to peoples opinion on what looks good, where I am willing to accept it's both as skillful, other people prefer to choose there favourite scheme which looks cool.
In terms of "skill" it is literally 50/50 with TTRR/BnG, if you think about the reality and how impossible it is for a human to be as flawless as DC's program with both TTRR/BnGall other classic schemes have things like crates/mines/random placements so will never come close to TTRR/BnG imo.
If we were talking about winning, in BnG 1st turn will win if ploppable, TTRR it will be a draw always.
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komo your missing the point... no1 agrees with you about bng being 50/50 just give it up...
we know u love bng but come on...
and winning the game is the most important thing, no matter how you do it... if 1st shot sink is the game winner, then you had a perfect game...
and komo, your always trying crazy shots in bng and each one different... the computer bng thing just tosses 3 second nades.. shit, even i can hit those majority of the tiem.. so if u cant do it all the time you should remove those b2b tags right now.
ropa is saying bng is easier to come close to the computers skill level
and its near impossible for a ttrr to get anywhere near a computer skill level. and he is right.
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Team17 actually proves it, the inbuilt CPU can BnG "quite" good. But it can't rope.
I am also believing that TTRR requires a lot more skill in terms of perfection, for both AI and Player alike.
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komo your missing the point... no1 agrees with you about bng being 50/50 just give it up...
we know u love bng but come on...
and winning the game is the most important thing, no matter how you do it... if 1st shot sink is the game winner, then you had a perfect game...
and komo, your always trying crazy shots in bng and each one different... the computer bng thing just tosses 3 second nades.. shit, even i can hit those majority of the tiem.. so if u cant do it all the time you should remove those b2b tags right now.
ropa is saying bng is easier to come close to the computers skill level
and its near impossible for a ttrr to get anywhere near a computer skill level. and he is right.
You really have NO f@#!ing clue what you are talking about. DC's BETA shows you the path of the grenade, and you can move it pixel by pixel, all angles, all pwoer, with and without LG, so you can do pretty much anything you want, you can aim a bounce like 10 times through 5 gaps and hit for 45/46hp, shut your f@#!ing mouth you idiot, dunno why I even waste my time with you.
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You would've deleted that post if I had talked to you like that, Komo.
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You would've deleted that post if I had talked to you like that, Komo.
I don't f@#!ing care, delete it then.
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DON'T TOUCH MY TRALALABNG!
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Isn't it still true that there is no chess AI out performing the best human players?
Nope. Humans are getting trounced nowadays.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2476
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2758
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3524
Especially the first one is painful.
Hell, they allowed a chess program that's run on a mobile phone play in a grandmaster tournament and it won by a huge margin: http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/twic771.html#13
Chess is a machine mind skill game. They program the computers well because any possible turn/game turnout is already known and fed into those chess computers... any other discipline which requires creativity in thinking and can't be completely analysed and rebuilt perfectly using artifial intelligent will always see man be ahead of machine. :)
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oh komo, are you still the same guy that sez he does not swear and insult? hahahah
sorry i did not know about deadcodes bng thing... but guess what? a player will still come closer the skill level of DC bng tool then one will ever compare to DC ttrr tool...
and no matter how much people try to tell you, you still think otherwise, because you have some strange love for bng...
i think komo should be muted, or atleast moderated for this.. im offended deeply.. peja was moderated for less... thank you.
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elite way to play have changed dratically since edited maps were introduted too. imo these full of hides maps gave some advantage for those players who dunno what to do in the game and just hide, keep nading and zooking and w8 till SD to see what happens, of course skilled players go more sucess doesnot matter the maps, but times ago you could win an elite vs a non-skilled player without w8 for sd lol
some wise words, i thought/think the same
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What's easier in real life?
A) Throwing a ball into a target?
B) Attaching yourself to a rope and swinging yourself quickly and accurately through a tight maze?
QED
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sorry i did not know about deadcodes bng thing... but guess what? a player will still come closer the skill level of DC bng tool then one will ever compare to DC ttrr tool...
and no matter how much people try to tell you, you still think otherwise, because you have some strange love for bng...
Ok so let me clarify what you just said, you 1st said "sorry i did not know about deadcodes bng thing", then you immediately go straight in for the fail with the classic "I just admitted I don't know what the hell I am talking about, but I still think I know best" one.
Cue, you can't compare WA with that lol.
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ok komo, i guess your right.... tossing bazookas and grenades is equally as challeging as rope race.... your absolutely right.. happy now? wanna stfu yet??
infact.. i think bng is much much harder... such a skillfull game.. ttrr is easy, any newb could do that
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ok komo, i guess your right.... tossing bazookas and grenades is equally as challeging as rope race.... your absolutely right.. happy now? wanna stfu yet??
infact.. i think bng is much much harder... such a skillfull game.. ttrr is easy, any newb could do that
Even though I have stated already I feel TTRR and BnG are 50/50 in terms of "skill" you still continue to not interpret this and instead preach in a sarcastic way that I feel BnG is more skillful, all I am saying is I have seen and used the tools for both schemes to their limit.
Like I said before avi, if the ONLY thing you care about is winning as fast as possible then yes it's possible for BnG to finish faster but how does that make it less skillful? I am talking skill as in being able to hit 100% damage 100% for eternity, something this program can achieve and something no one can achieve.
If we dig a little deeper and compare with percentages:
I probably have an overall hit ratio of like 30% out of a possible 100% and something like 1% of that 30% are full damage shots.
Mablak, I think we can all agree the fastest ever, can achieve times around 30-40% slower than the fastest time possible with DC's tool sometimes better or worse depending on the map.
Actually, puttin it like this makes BnG a bigger gap and therefore harder to achieve closer to the highest possible skill in this perspective.
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What's easier in real life?
A) Throwing a ball into a target?
B) Attaching yourself to a rope and swinging yourself quickly and accurately through a tight maze?
QED
rofl
can you climb up a rope that 20th of your size within 3sec?
DONT COMPARE A GAME WITH REALLIFE; EVER
tbh, this discussion is nonsens. every scheme has its own specific difficulties, so no scheme is harder than the other. they are just diffrent.
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What's easier in real life?
A) Throwing a ball into a target?
B) Attaching yourself to a rope and swinging yourself quickly and accurately through a tight maze?
QED
rofl
can you climb up a rope that 20th of your size within 3sec?
DONT COMPARE A GAME WITH REALLIFE; EVER
tbh, this discussion is nonsens. every scheme has its own specific difficulties, so no scheme is harder than the other. they are just diffrent.
Just trying to lighten the mood a little!
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yes komo, when u say it like that, i have no choice but to agree.. bng is more difficult then ttrr
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If roper is a luck scheme how have people gone 50-0 in the past in leagues.
How did people go +100 in cases r lad. Probably the most competitive league the worms series has had (not the best league, most competitive).
It must have been luck. No skill involved in that at all.
I see the same people that complain about cr8s in roper hiding in the middle portion of the map when they are losing. Most lack the strategy and intricacies that roper requires. Most people don't have the speed and ability to get hard cr8s anymore. Even fewer people attempt to throw a 2s or 3s nade when they cant reach a worm. Even fewer have ever used max bounce in a roper. I could go on and on about the myth that roper is a luck scheme.
The skill level of ropers has decreased (me included). Not the skill required for roper.
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Just because a bunch of very good players manage to counter luck with skill it doesn't mean luck doesn't play a role.
If you don't like the term luck we can use the term random. Crate drops are random and therefore there is an advantage or disadvantage in every turn. Those adv/disadvantages can be countered with the proper use of hidings and strategy, but that doesn't take away the fact they do exist. They can be countered with skill and be made a non factor, but that neither means they don't exist.
Anyone whose been roping for some time can't lie and say they've never been screwed up by crates in what they consider a flawless games by themselves. It doesn't happen often, it doesn't happen often at all for good players, but it happens unlike other schemes like RR where if you lose you only have yourself to blame.
Just because I'm good enough to grab the hardest crates turn after turn doesn't mean luck isn't having an impact, as I am using more skill to achieve the same my opponent achieves, with easier crates, and whilst even if at the end I win, it still took me more effort, why did it take me more effort? Random.
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I was just replying but my laptop overheated and decided to shut down!
As a result it will overlap a fair bit with what ropa said above
I do agree that roper requires skill, and it is clear that better ropers generally have a better record which backs your point up indeed, but I stand by the fact that there is a fair chunk of luck involved.
I can't buy the 50-0 in leagues because past leagues (WL, cl2k, etc) suffered from DoN.
This meant that losses can be cancelled out by wins.
In terms of luck, it is quite normal to see one player get harder/easier crates than the other.
The player with the harder crates must play better to win. They would have to rope faster/more efficiently to attack and therefore run the greater risk to falling. Luck causes this, and it is quite a factor.
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i agree.
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Which scheme is harder to a person is the same as what defines a god for one person. They can come up with their own view and definition on their own god and what it's about and that is what's real to them. If we're talking to/about people who fullheartedly believe in this god (or scheme in this case) then that is how they see it and noone but themselves can change that.
IMO, no scheme requires more skill; they only require different skill at a particular point in a particular game. No game is exactly the same, making the skill level completely different every time a game is played which makes worms so interesting (albeit simple) to me.
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that's such a communist argument
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The skill level of ropers has decreased (me included). Not the skill required for roper.
thats pretty much the point.
the skill you requier is mesured on the skill your opponents - the other players - have. and thats the reason why all schemes requier the same skill. its the same ppl playing the game.
an exception would be if a new scheme popped up so everyones a newbie at that and everyone is starting with halfway equally skills.
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Which scheme is harder to a person is the same as what defines a god for one person. They can come up with their own view and definition on their own god and what it's about and that is what's real to them. If we're talking to/about people who fullheartedly believe in this god (or scheme in this case) then that is how they see it and noone but themselves can change that.
IMO, no scheme requires more skill; they only require different skill at a particular point in a particular game. No game is exactly the same, making the skill level completely different every time a game is played which makes worms so interesting (albeit simple) to me.
;O
Rope racing requires fast reflexes, consistent and controlled finger movements plus a great deal of composure and mental control.
BnG does not depend on fast reflexes nor does it require consistent and controlled finger movements. Somebody who is physically handicapped could still play BnG. I think BnG requires composure because under pressure an extra millisecond can mean the difference between a hit and a miss.
So how do you compare two vastly different schemes and decide which one takes more skill.
There is no real objective truth to this argument.
My opinion however is that TTRR requires more skill. When I first saw a pro roper I was literally in awe at how amazing it was. The journey to be a pro roper has been the biggest test of skill that I've ever come up against in all the games I've ever played in over 25 years of gaming.
BnG. Yeah. Whatever. Great scheme definitately. But TTRR is on another level of skill. No one will ever master roping but as humans evolve, perhaps in 10,000+ years, who knows how good humans will be able to rope. It's scary really.
Absolutely no contest. TTRR requires more gaming skill than BnG.
In my opinion of course.
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Iam with ropa, avi, ryan and fidel ( just at cubas case )
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You sure, ropa? I mean, he mentioned "god" in there, pretty sure that's not communism ;D
If you're going to compare the godlike roping in TTRR, surely, you should compare it to godlike BnG, where a player bounces his grenade off 6 random pixels and have it impact at exactly the right time every turn. I've you're going to bring the b2b movie into this, I'd upload a replay where Wyv performed some impossible warming, but unfortunately, I don't seem to have the replay :(
I know I never got close to either of these :)
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Which scheme is harder to a person is the same as what defines a god for one person. They can come up with their own view and definition on their own god and what it's about and that is what's real to them. If we're talking to/about people who fullheartedly believe in this god (or scheme in this case) then that is how they see it and noone but themselves can change that.
IMO, no scheme requires more skill; they only require different skill at a particular point in a particular game. No game is exactly the same, making the skill level completely different every time a game is played which makes worms so interesting (albeit simple) to me.
;O
Rope racing requires fast reflexes, consistent and controlled finger movements plus a great deal of composure and mental control.
BnG does not depend on fast reflexes nor does it require consistent and controlled finger movements. Somebody who is physically handicapped could still play BnG. I think BnG requires composure because under pressure an extra millisecond can mean the difference between a hit and a miss.
So how do you compare two vastly different schemes and decide which one takes more skill.
There is no real objective truth to this argument.
My opinion however is that TTRR requires more skill. When I first saw a pro roper I was literally in awe at how amazing it was. The journey to be a pro roper has been the biggest test of skill that I've ever come up against in all the games I've ever played in over 25 years of gaming.
BnG. Yeah. Whatever. Great scheme definitately. But TTRR is on another level of skill. No one will ever master roping but as humans evolve, perhaps in 10,000+ years, who knows how good humans will be able to rope. It's scary really.
Absolutely no contest. TTRR requires more gaming skill than BnG.
In my opinion of course.
If you're going to compare the godlike roping in TTRR, surely, you should compare it to godlike BnG, where a player bounces his grenade off 6 random pixels and have it impact at exactly the right time every turn. I've you're going to bring the b2b movie into this, I'd upload a replay where Wyv performed some impossible warming, but unfortunately, I don't seem to have the replay :(
I know I never got close to either of these :)
And tbh if you compare Mablaks Roping to my BnG, you will find us equal because we are both the leading players by a large margin, compare us both to the program with both schemes with perfect replays, with the fastest time possible for TTRR every map and shots so intense for BnG it'd take me at least 20-30 attempts to hit even once and not even full damage, then see a program do it, perfect for eternity every single shot max damage with the most insane bounces through the smallest gaps.
I still stick by 50/50...
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avi, this is the last time I am gonna give you some of my time to make an indepth post at you:
Yesterday you accuse me of having no life because I spend alot of time on these forums? So what, is that a crime? Is it such a crime to want to spend alot of my time with ALOT of people I enjoy spending my time with? Isn't that what you do in real life? Spend time with people you enjoy spending time with doing things you enjoy doing things with having discussions about things you enjoy having discussions about?
I like to debate alot, I debate alot and it helps me seperate myself from those who may betray me in the future, the people I have as friends are now people I know I can trust depend and rely on, people I know I can have differences with, people I know I can fight with, and shake hands after, REAL people, REAL people I know I can go to hell and back with and have that feeling of HAVING A f@#!ING LIFE.
Thanks to this game, and forum, over the last few years I have found inspiration for music, comedy, different cultures, and many other things, I am now getting the chance to spend a year with and share knowledge and life experiences with because of this game, this forum, I also got to take part in a successful small movie as part of a community of amazing people and players from around the world
I love my life, I feel lucky to have my life, I am grateful for having a loving family and such strong friends and work colleagues who support each other through the hardest times, as well as celebrating the best of times.
Troll me and my community all you want, I really don't care cuz I am so f@#!ing happy and grateful.
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Making perfect BnG bot is very easy;
Making perfect TTRR bot is very hard;
Making perfect Elite/Intermediate bot is impossible.
</thread>
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Typical that each ethnic group will vote for their scheme. I think now there's no need for such excesses. What, proving or trying to prove that one scheme is more skillful than the other just to satisfy own desires? And like 'look, I play the hardest scheme possible, worship me!'. ;) You can keep practising to actually improve your skill and move one step closer to the peak of scheme mastering instead of staying here.
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Making perfect BnG bot is very easy;
Making perfect TTRR bot is very hard;
Making perfect Elite/Intermediate bot is impossible.
</thread>
who cares about bots?
elite/intermediate is easy to learn (everyone plays it at start of the worms adventure)
bng is hard to learn (beginers usually can't score any shot and get quickly bored)
ttrr is fkn hard to learn (beginers usually leave host after their see my roping, lol)
and I still claim these are specific schemes, and each of them requires long time to get master or even decent :)
edit: lol Peja, nice trolling 8)
troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
;D :D
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Making perfect BnG bot is very easy;
Making perfect TTRR bot is very hard;
Making perfect Elite/Intermediate bot is impossible.
</thread>
So you know how to make bots do you, bots have nothing to do with what we are talking about, but nice try.
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And tbh if you compare Mablaks Roping to my BnG, you will find us equal because we are both the leading players by a large margin, compare us both to the program with both schemes with perfect replays, with the fastest time possible for TTRR every map and shots so intense for BnG it'd take me at least 20-30 attempts to hit even once and not even full damage, then see a program do it, perfect for eternity every single shot max damage with the most insane bounces through the smallest gaps.
I still stick by 50/50...
Nahhh, Coste pwns the BnG :P
Large margins? That's the subject of yet another debate if you wanna go there. I got time if you have. <3 komo
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Large margins? That's the subject of yet another debate if you wanna go there. I got time if you have. <3 komo
No thanks, that's too arrogant for me.
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Making perfect BnG bot is very easy;
Making perfect TTRR bot is very hard;
Making perfect Elite/Intermediate bot is impossible.
</thread>
It's even harder to make a full wormage bot.
What's your point?
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What's your point?
The point is that BnG and TTRR are about mechanics, thus you can get good at them with many many hours of brainless practice and nothing else. Elite/intermediate add to complicated mechanics (you'll never learn all of the weapon tricks used in intermediate, it is such a huge field for exploration) even more complicated strategy. That's what you can't master if you don't use your brain. Strategy > nerdesque training.
So you know how to make bots do you, bots have nothing to do with what we are talking about, but nice try.
We are talking about skill value, no? In a few days I can make a BnG bot which will pwn you with your many years of practice, what's the value of this practice then? This is kinda pointless.
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In a few days I can make a BnG bot which will pwn you with your many years of practice, what's the value of this practice then? This is kinda pointless.
Challenge accepted, you present your best "bot" and I will beat it.
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Challenge accepted, you present your best "bot" and I will beat it.
Haha, okay. Stay tuned.
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No darkside allowed :)
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We are talking about skill value, no? In a few days I can make a BnG bot which will pwn you with your many years of practice, what's the value of this practice then? This is kinda pointless.
[/quote]
so basically I should stop playing the piano since there are machines and programs that can play anything?
You're seriously misunderstanding what "fun" is. If I'm having fun testing my eye-to-hand coordination with roping there's nothing you can compare with the fun you'll be having testing your ability to choose and use weapons in imaginative ways in Intermediate.
My point: this discussion is kinda pointless since its trying to compare two totally different things. The piano example shows that regardless of whether roping is "codeable" so that it exploits all Worms physics that does not take anything from its difficulty and skill thats needed.
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so basically I should stop playing the piano since there are machines and programs that can play anything?
Robots can't even come close to human piano playing skills yet.
You're seriously misunderstanding what "fun" is. If I'm having fun testing my eye-to-hand coordination with roping there's nothing you can compare with the fun you'll be having testing your ability to choose and use weapons in imaginative ways in Intermediate.
Lol, honestly, this thread is not about fun. Undoubtedly fun is the most important thing in the game, but in this discussion it stays aside.
Btw, I love roping, especially rr.
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Large margins? That's the subject of yet another debate if you wanna go there. I got time if you have. <3 komo
No thanks, that's too arrogant for me.
Komo - "And tbh if you compare Mablaks Roping to my BnG, you will find us equal because we are both the leading players by a large margin"
And you call me arrogant!
Komo, I'm not arrogant. I'm just responding to your arrogance but trying my best to keep it civil.
You're the best BnG player I believe. But not by a large margin, have some respect and don't be f@#!ing arrogant. And if Mablak is indeed the best rope racer then it is not by a large margin. IMO.
Again, I'll say it. If you want to debate this point then give me a constructive argument and we'll talk it through.
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I constantly beat the top players in BnG constantly, Mablak constantly beats the top players in TTRR constantly.
I won't respond again, simply because you are seeing this as too personal instead of the fact that it is, it is what it is, it doesn't mean I don't respect anyone else, not my problem you gotta see it that way.
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avi, this is the last time I am gonna give you some of my time to make an indepth post at you:
Yesterday you accuse me of having no life because I spend alot of time on these forums? So what, is that a crime? Is it such a crime to want to spend alot of my time with ALOT of people I enjoy spending my time with? Isn't that what you do in real life? Spend time with people you enjoy spending time with doing things you enjoy doing things with having discussions about things you enjoy having discussions about?
I like to debate alot, I debate alot and it helps me seperate myself from those who may betray me in the future, the people I have as friends are now people I know I can trust depend and rely on, people I know I can have differences with, people I know I can fight with, and shake hands after, REAL people, REAL people I know I can go to hell and back with and have that feeling of HAVING A f@#!ING LIFE.
Thanks to this game, and forum, over the last few years I have found inspiration for music, comedy, different cultures, and many other things, I am now getting the chance to spend a year with and share knowledge and life experiences with because of this game, this forum, I also got to take part in a successful small movie as part of a community of amazing people and players from around the world
I love my life, I feel lucky to have my life, I am grateful for having a loving family and such strong friends and work colleagues who support each other through the hardest times, as well as celebrating the best of times.
Troll me and my community all you want, I really don't care cuz I am so f@#!ing happy and grateful.
cool komo
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I constantly beat the top players in BnG constantly, Mablak constantly beats the top players in TTRR constantly.
I won't respond again, simply because you are seeing this as too personal instead of the fact that it is, it is what it is, it doesn't mean I don't respect anyone else, not my problem you gotta see it that way.
;O
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Super Sheep Race!
P.S. ne1? :D
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so basically I should stop playing the piano since there are machines and programs that can play anything?
Robots can't even come close to human piano playing skills yet.
You're seriously misunderstanding what "fun" is. If I'm having fun testing my eye-to-hand coordination with roping there's nothing you can compare with the fun you'll be having testing your ability to choose and use weapons in imaginative ways in Intermediate.
Lol, honestly, this thread is not about fun. Undoubtedly fun is the most important thing in the game, but in this discussion it stays aside.
Btw, I love roping, especially rr.
Even if it proved impossible to make a perfect strategy scheme AI, the best one you could possibly make would still lose frequently to top players. It wouldn't be able to beat them 100% of the time as a BnG or TTRR bot almost certainly would. This is because with motor skill related stuff, certain things are just insurmountable for humans, whereas with strategy, we can use heuristics to subconsciously bypass all the little things we should really be thinking about. A strategy AI's potential would be fairly limitless, but human potential is similar, if the game is simple enough. Judging a scheme's skill based on bot complexity is pointless if you don't also take into account how those bots stack up to humans ;0.
But nonetheless, I don't see how bots are relevant, it's futile to compare yourself to perfection. It really has nothing to do with how skillful a scheme is for humans.
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Well said Mablak
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While we are at it:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/235878/robot_absorbs_civilization_manual_goes_on_to_win_games.html
Quite interesting if you consider that the AI was not programmed to know about civilization, it was reading the manual and then started to play and learn. :)
I am not so sure if the "best" possible made bot could not surpass our strategy comprehension, like us it would need to learn the game but in near future I am sure we will see AI/Robots do a lot more impressive stuff, not that this little achievement isn't impressive, it's fantastic actually that a AI can read and reflect the things it read.
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But but robots will still be noobs, cuz anything less than perfect for a robot is considered a complete failure.
What makes us so good is that fact it's so hard for us, that is what skill is.
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If roper is a luck scheme how have people gone 50-0 in the past in leagues.
How did people go +100 in cases r lad. Probably the most competitive league the worms series has had (not the best league, most competitive).
It must have been luck. No skill involved in that at all.
I see the same people that complain about cr8s in roper hiding in the middle portion of the map when they are losing. Most lack the strategy and intricacies that roper requires. Most people don't have the speed and ability to get hard cr8s anymore. Even fewer people attempt to throw a 2s or 3s nade when they cant reach a worm. Even fewer have ever used max bounce in a roper. I could go on and on about the myth that roper is a luck scheme.
The skill level of ropers has decreased (me included). Not the skill required for roper.
Can't resist, you can't possibly argue over roper.
The reason in past leagues people went such good records with not only roper but any scheme was DON, DON and DON.
I disagree with Skill level, I believe relatively it is higher now a days, back then few and far between could rope better than most of the community.
Roper is sooooooo luck based it's not funny, let go of the past.
I actually agree with everything Ropa has said.
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I actually agree with everything Ropa has said.
that would of looked so much better under your old nickname
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If roper is a luck scheme how have people gone 50-0 in the past in leagues.
How did people go +100 in cases r lad. Probably the most competitive league the worms series has had (not the best league, most competitive).
It must have been luck. No skill involved in that at all.
I see the same people that complain about cr8s in roper hiding in the middle portion of the map when they are losing. Most lack the strategy and intricacies that roper requires. Most people don't have the speed and ability to get hard cr8s anymore. Even fewer people attempt to throw a 2s or 3s nade when they cant reach a worm. Even fewer have ever used max bounce in a roper. I could go on and on about the myth that roper is a luck scheme.
The skill level of ropers has decreased (me included). Not the skill required for roper.
Can't resist, you can't possibly argue over roper.
The reason in past leagues people went such good records with not only roper but any scheme was DON, DON and DON.
I disagree with Skill level, I believe relatively it is higher now a days, back then few and far between could rope better than most of the community.
Roper is sooooooo luck based it's not funny, let go of the past.
I actually agree with everything Ropa has said.
Actually people went 100-0 without DON. :o
Roper is starting to become one of the least played tus schemes. I would say people were better at it when it was at its highest popularity and it was most peoples main schemes then now when very few specialize in it.
Back then? When exactly are you speaking of?
The only thing that can even remotely called luck about roper is the cr8s.
In almost all games the amount of cr8s that are impossible even out for both players. Its so stupid when someone goes "omfg cr8" at the start of games. f@#!ing relax.
Unless you played a flawless game you have no right to bitch about cr8s. There are very few perfect games.
Play on maps where there is hard cr8s but not impossible ones.
Rope better and faster. The better and faster roper will get harder cr8s and attack more.
Look at the top 20 overall tus win ratios for roper. Then look at the top 20 overall win ratios for other schemes. Roper is comparable if not higher win ratio then the other schemes.
How could this be? Is everyone in the top 20 of roper luckier then everyone else. If roper is so lucky that it makes you laugh hysterically shouldn't the top 20 win ratio's be lower?
Where is your proof that roper is a luck scheme?
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mistakes decide roper games, not crates.
yet way too many people still bash roper as the 'luck' scheme.
this is an old, yet seemingly never-ending discussion:
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-57630/
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/off-topic/darkone-or-someone-else-maybe/30/
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/w2rope-scheme-***please-read***/150/ (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/w2rope-scheme-***please-read***/150/)
i'm not saying random crates don't affect every game. they do.
but everyone here is exaggerating way too much making roper seem like the lottery.
it's not even close to that much luck. it's only slightly more than the other schemes.
as dubc knows, skill and mistakes decide a roper win or loss like 97+% of the time.
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a game involving as much skill as roper, should not have a luck factor...
thats why i tried to push w2roper scheme, but no one wants to evolve, and thats fine.. i have finally come to acceptance :D
but its funny how dubc and franz are the only ones that dont acknowledge cr8 rape... and the rest of w:a does...
franz your main argument is you never see a perfect game.. but maybe that has something to do with the cr8 rape itself? lol... if you have all easy cr8s, you play the perfect game... if i have all hard cr8s i have a higher chance to make mistakes, and when i do... you will blame my mistake, and not my cr8... its interesting
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Indeed, there is not that much luck involved. There are so many other things then just where the crate lands which decides the game. There are different factors, even factors people dont think over enough, like which wormer collects the crate in the most effiecence way (Mirux/Mil2 is extaordinary when it comes to being efficient collecting the crates). Surely, some games you`re f@#!ed over by crates, but most games are decided by skill
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avi, dubc and I aren't saying random crates don't affect every game. they do.
we're saying that skill and mistakes decide roper games.
and it's not just us. just looking in those old threads, lots of people agree:
crazy
flex
monkeyisland
spw
madden
husk
cueshark
random00
and likely more
even you had an interesting quote back then:
i agree with franz and johnny too... if you play perfectly, u will more then likely win...
but why should 1 played have to roper farther, roper longer, and rope more consistantly then the other roper... the luck factor is much to large in roper games, and dominate.
why do u think the elite scheme got rid of cr8s? because it added un-needed luck....
but nah, lets not make any changes to roper scheme to get rid of the luck factor.. ITS CLASSIC!
I'm serious, if you can popularize a crateless roper, then that's the solution.
w2roper still has random crates that affect games, so that's not the solution either.
your best bet is to find some hybrid between roper and wxw that gets rid of the weapon drops, but still requires equal distance to rope if you truly want to be fair.
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i dont think enough people gave w2roper a try, for long enough... if anyone seen the skill, and strategy involved in it they would quickly take it it...
i dont think a roper game with no cr8s would be very fun, i guess there just will never be a solution...
lets not have another w2roper debate :D im fine with roper how it is, as long as we all can agree it has a large luck factor.
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::)
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Less HP in each cr8 would make it less depending where a cr8 drops, you either decide w2w or get a cr8 that has like 5-10HP.
Having choice is something Roper lacks. Every scheme actually has choices within their rules and boundaries. Maybe let's start there? Of course it's pointless if the majority doesn't want the change and if TUS doesn't have the balls to enforce it, it won't happen.
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dont bother anubis... majority dont want to see change, and wont even give a change a try... the main thing i hear is "roper is classic, it does not need to be changed" roper has been these settings since w:a was made, w2 ropers came and showed them how to rope, and because they were newb at the time they decided to make their own scheme, of 15 second/ 10 retreat... and i doubt that will ever evolve...
i remember as a diehard w2er, how against switching to w:a i was... but one day i gave it a try, i was in complete shock when i seen 25 second total turn time.. but all these years later, the shock is finally starting to wear off, and im accepting of more retreat time then a mines detonation
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the more time was a direct response to slower rope. You seem to imply it wasn't a logical change?
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Well and it was a direct response to Team17 that they suck and forgot to make scheme creation more flexible. 15turn 10 retreat is more or less a forced value due to the lack of flexibility. Nowadays we could create a MUCH better luckless scheme because of all the scheme editors we have.
RR evolved into a way better skillful scheme when the game finally allowed Time Trial turns, Roper just seems to be stuck in time and that's why other schemes are more popular (or skillful if you want), it never changed, just like BnG it could be better (or popular if you want) too I am sure. But it seems these schemes rules are carved in stone and whenever someone wants to change anything only a couple people support it and no league with impact (like TUS) shows any support or interest. And no, I am not talking about "we will make a poll and see if people want it", that's no support. Things like trying out the scheme for a season, and not "if someone says no to it you can't play it". (avirex w2r could at least been taken serious when it was around, but TUS didn't)
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Roper is pretty luck-based, but mostly it just doesn't have as high a skill cap as other schemes. In RR, elite, inter, BnG, I feel like I've always been able to improve a little bit each year, but roper just kind of stagnates. I've lost most of my interest in it since there are far better schemes out there, the only problem is that it's hard to come up with a similar enough replacement for it (if that's really necessary, which I'm not so sure about).
But I agree, we should look for alternatives. Even wxw is starting to look better to me, provided the map is difficult enough. My main beef with the scheme is that all the maps are quite simple, if we had some less linear ones that required slightly more difficult roping, it might be a viable alternative. And you could make it more roper-like as far as weaps and crates go. This discussion certainly has happened a lot though, and it probably won't lead anywhere, as usual >_o.
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Roper is pretty luck-based, but mostly it just doesn't have as high a skill cap as other schemes. In RR, elite, inter, BnG, I feel like I've always been able to improve a little bit each year, but roper just kind of stagnates. I've lost most of my interest in it since there are far better schemes out there, the only problem is that it's hard to come up with a similar enough replacement for it (if that's really necessary, which I'm not so sure about).
But I agree, we should look for alternatives. Even wxw is starting to look better to me, provided the map is difficult enough. My main beef with the scheme is that all the maps are quite simple, if we had some less linear ones that required slightly more difficult roping, it might be a viable alternative. And you could make it more roper-like as far as weaps and crates go. This discussion certainly has happened a lot though, and it probably won't lead anywhere, as usual >_o.
Why is roper pretty luck-based? I know its just your opinion but it would be nice to know where this is coming from.
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Why is roper pretty luck-based? I know its just your opinion but it would be nice to know where this is coming from.
Because provided virtual equal skill between opponents luck will incline the balance to one way or the other, and it will do so numerous times during a certain match.
In RR it would be a draw, in BnG it would be whoever goes first and in Elite it doesn't matter because the amount of factors in play make it irrelevant who goes first or second. In Roper a random number generator determines the difficulty of your next turn, regardless of who wins, one will have put more effort in the form of measurable skill than the other, and in certain games, it's not even the winner who does.
Thinking out of the box here, eliminating luck factors from BnG is something that rubberworm could achieve. In Bng, if you go had the first turn of the game, and you eventually kill your opponent with a last shot, he doesn't die in that inmediate turn but gets an extra shot giving him the possibility of a draw. Also wind lasting for two turns, instead of one.
In roper I guess it's way more complicated, I've given many thoughts to a WxW - Roper hybrid, I even had some conceptual ideas for the maps, which were a mix of both. Obviously the scheme is tweaked, and healt crates kick in in detriment of weapon drops. We could be up to something, providing there's interest-.
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the more time was a direct response to slower rope. You seem to imply it wasn't a logical change?
ropa, sure... and extra second would be fine... but do you really think that the current level of skill needs 15 seconds, and lets just assume they do because of the cr8 rule (which should be eliminated)
what justifies 10 second retreat?? i know you want to be able to pile after a mine.. but come on, thats not skillfull, in w2 if we wanted to pile we would be forced to nade or zook.
i wish tus gave more support to my scheme, but they didnt... and i guess i cant blame MI, he tries to make everyone happy.. and half of the community wase against it (i think the fact that i was the main supported played part in that)
i would be open to trying an new scheme u come up with ropa... but i was simply trying to update the current scheme, not create a totally different one.. but whatever works is fine with me....
im not saying my w2roper scheme was the perfect settings, but it was a start... i even said i was open to any suggestions on changing it to make it better...but alot of people never even gave it a try, they just bashed it from start.. it was pretty disappointing.. every scheme on w:a has evolved for the better where as like mablak said, roper is just stagnant and stuck in the past.
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i wish tus gave more support to my scheme, but they didnt...
That's funny. I remember it differently.
I remember TUS allowed for w2 roper if both players agreed.
I remember we allowed you to host a w2 roper cup, which you promptly abandoned after you got eliminated in the group phase.
If you really stand for something, then you should be able to stick with it.
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In RR it would be a draw, in BnG it would be whoever goes first and in Elite it doesn't matter because the amount of factors in play make it irrelevant who goes first or second. In Roper a random number generator determines the difficulty of your next turn, regardless of who wins, one will have put more effort in the form of measurable skill than the other, and in certain games, it's not even the winner who does.
Thinking out of the box here, eliminating luck factors from BnG is something that rubberworm could achieve. In Bng, if you go had the first turn of the game, and you eventually kill your opponent with a last shot, he doesn't die in that inmediate turn but gets an extra shot giving him the possibility of a draw. Also wind lasting for two turns, instead of one.
I have to disagree, going 2nd is best in BnG(as long as it's a nice map), you always have the chance of teleporting out of their distance because they placed evil, or anywhere you think is hard to hit from their position, even in a 100% hit count from both players doesn't mean 1st player wins, taking pushes into account, which the better players haved improved on over the last few years, the last year in particular people actually use the phrase and try it intentionally, you can prevent your opponent from attacking forcing them to miss a turn and move.
Your idea of not dying is great, could just start game with 250hp and say threshold is 200.
I'll support a new Rope scheme, who wants to brainstorm together and test some stuff out?
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I'll support a new Rope scheme, who wants to brainstorm together and test some stuff out?
What about 2 worms per team + select worm maybe? :P
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I'll support a new Rope scheme, who wants to brainstorm together and test some stuff out?
What about 2 worms per team + select worm maybe? :P
THat's interesting... Wanna hit AG with me now and test it?
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I'll support a new Rope scheme, who wants to brainstorm together and test some stuff out?
What about 2 worms per team + select worm maybe? :P
THat's interesting... Wanna hit AG with me now and test it?
We just tried this scheme. It looks more interesting, but easier (you can always select the-closest-to-the-crate worm). What I like is piling worms when it is 1vs2 doesn't make sense (select worm again). This scheme should be played on hard maps and maybe with 13s turn (maybe not...). Go & Test it now! :P
P.S. Hardcore version: 8 worms per team. Will require shoppa piling skillz! jk :D
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Let's not just change the scheme for the sake of doing so. Eliminating luck by making the scheme easier shouldn't be encouraged.
I had a different idea, I'll try to share a map this afternoon. Basically, it's a pretty hard rope map, and in different designed spots there are numbers, there's two of each number, two 1, two 2, two 3, two 4 and two 5.
You can only hide near those numbers, and if you hide in 1, you have to rope to the other 1 in order to attack. This way, and providing your opponent hides with common sense all turns will at the very least have a marging of 3-4 seconds to perform the attack.
If you are hit and moved from a number you go to the clone of that number nearest to your turn start spot (you don't have to touch both number 1 per instance, just the one more further away).
Obviously health crates are gone and HP is increased.
The problem with this scheme? There's very few people I'd trust to design a map that works well within what we're trying to achieve.
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Not to mention 1st turn will win if equal skill?
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Not to mention 1st turn will win if equal skill?
Yes, luck factor has been reduced to one turn, as opposed to every turn. I think it's a step forward.
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darkone, why do you have your head so far up your TUS anus right now??
i said i wish TUS supported my scheme MORE, and you went and said how they supported me...
will your next post be about the more support? i hope it will go something like this..
"Dear avirex, in regards to your request for more support, TUS has decided to not only make w2roper an option if both teams agree, because we know there will never be a case both teams agree, that its now the standard TUS rope scheme of w:a league ropers.
Enjoy
From ninos hero, and w:a's only doctor, DarkOne"
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BnG, TTRR, or elite?
TTRR / Bungeee Race.
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darkone, why do you have your head so far up your TUS anus right now??
i said i wish TUS supported my scheme MORE, and you went and said how they supported me...
will your next post be about the more support? i hope it will go something like this..
"Dear avirex, in regards to your request for more support, TUS has decided to not only make w2roper an option if both teams agree, because we know there will never be a case both teams agree, that its now the standard TUS rope scheme of w:a league ropers.
Enjoy
From ninos hero, and w:a's only doctor, DarkOne"
Dude, I wouldn't be so arrogant to expect anything like that from a scheme variation I make (like random turn order hysteria).
The rules are clear on only accepting official league schemes. We made an exception for your scheme. A scheme needs to have a certain amount of popularity before it becomes a main league scheme. That's where scheme enthousiasts come into play.
Your post suggested you were disappointed at the level of our support. This comes off as a "f@#! you" after you abandoned your own cup and left it for me to finish.
Also, if I recall correctly, forza started studying medicine several years ago, wouldn't surprise me if he's done by now.
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Also, if I recall correctly, forza started studying medicine several years ago, wouldn't surprise me if he's done by now.
Lmao, made me smile. :D
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:D
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RR evolved into a way better skillful scheme when the game finally allowed Time Trial turns, Roper just seems to be stuck in time and that's why other schemes are more popular (or skillful if you want), it never changed, just like BnG it could be better (or popular if you want) too I am sure. But it seems these schemes rules are carved in stone and whenever someone wants to change anything only a couple people support it and no league with impact (like TUS) shows any support or interest. And no, I am not talking about "we will make a poll and see if people want it", that's no support. Things like trying out the scheme for a season, and not "if someone says no to it you can't play it". (avirex w2r could at least been taken serious when it was around, but TUS didn't)
darkone, i was just replying to anubis, and i did not say TUS did not give me any support... so chill out, damn... i said i wish they gave me MORE support... and i still stick to that.... roughly 50% of the community liked w2roper scheme, tus could have very easily made w2roper an option to pick (not only if everyone agreed)
but it did not happen, and its np...
relax a little darkone, its not healthy doc
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RR evolved into a way better skillful scheme when the game finally allowed Time Trial turns, Roper just seems to be stuck in time and that's why other schemes are more popular (or skillful if you want), it never changed, just like BnG it could be better (or popular if you want) too I am sure. But it seems these schemes rules are carved in stone and whenever someone wants to change anything only a couple people support it and no league with impact (like TUS) shows any support or interest. And no, I am not talking about "we will make a poll and see if people want it", that's no support. Things like trying out the scheme for a season, and not "if someone says no to it you can't play it". (avirex w2r could at least been taken serious when it was around, but TUS didn't)
I think the w2roper scheme was ok. Could have been made better if you listened to me lol
darkone, i was just replying to anubis, and i did not say TUS did not give me any support... so chill out, damn... i said i wish they gave me MORE support... and i still stick to that.... roughly 50% of the community liked w2roper scheme, tus could have very easily made w2roper an option to pick (not only if everyone agreed)
but it did not happen, and its np...
relax a little darkone, its not healthy doc
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nice fail with quotes, dub.. haha...
and as i said a million times to you dub, i was not trying to copy the w2 scheme 100% .. you kept trying to tell me i had them wrong, like i did not know the scheme... i was there too dub, i was just going by i different name back then hauahuaha
if i put dyno and mega fd and other crazy things w:a would be even less apt to accept it.. i was trying to find a happy medium in hopes they would give it a try...
i also said i was open to suggestions and ideas to make the scheme better... but alot of people were too busy bashing it...
but i dunno... i doubt anything with roper will ever change tbh.
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Someone may have said this already, but the only way I think roper should be played is with 2 teams.
Just like clanners.
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2 Teams roper in w2 seemed just perfect in my opinion. Not everybody in cases picked it though, I liked the two teams each player mode a lot better and far more balanced and tactical. Together with a lot more HP, the huge FD and Sheep/dyno and cows and less retreat time it was in retrospect my best exprience with a roper scheme. The W:A scheme is just like this because when W:A released there was no way to edit Fall damage and shit and it was just dealt with as THE roper scheme. People never actually made the effort in W:A to try it. And when I got into w2 around 2004 the first time (better late than never, eh?) I really saw the deep tactical aspect a w2 roper had.
Hands down w2 roper was/is a lot more tactical than any W:A roper ever was. Not saying w2 Roper is perfect but in it's setting it was extremely well developed and balanced. Not saying that scheme is the glorified roper scheme I am sure there are even better ways for a nice roper, but it has a lot more thought put into it.
Actually W:A Roper scheme is the only scheme that never changed although we have almost endless possibilities with scheme editors. Team17 changed, Elite changed, everything even BnG if I recall correctly.
Edit: Some additional thoughts.
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2 Teams roper in w2 seemed just perfect in my opinion. Not everybody in cases picked it though, I liked the two teams each player mode a lot better and far more balanced and tactical. Together with a lot more HP, the huge FD and Sheep/dyno and cows and less retreat time it was in retrospect my best exprience with a roper scheme. The W:A scheme is just like this because when W:A released there was no way to edit Fall damage and shit and it was just dealt with as THE roper scheme. People never actually made the effort in W:A to try it. And when I got into w2 around 2004 the first time (better late than never, eh?) I really saw the deep tactical aspect a w2 roper had.
Hands down w2 roper was/is a lot more tactical than any W:A roper ever was. Not saying w2 Roper is perfect but in it's setting it was extremely well developed and balanced. Not saying that scheme is the glorified roper scheme I am sure there are even better ways for a nice roper, but it has a lot more thought put into it.
Actually W:A Roper scheme is the only scheme that never changed although we have almost endless possibilities with scheme editors. Team17 changed, Elite changed, everything even BnG if I recall correctly.
Edit: Some additional thoughts.
roper scheme has changed, for the worst. they removed the dyno
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2 Teams roper in w2 seemed just perfect in my opinion. Not everybody in cases picked it though, I liked the two teams each player mode a lot better and far more balanced and tactical. Together with a lot more HP, the huge FD and Sheep/dyno and cows and less retreat time it was in retrospect my best exprience with a roper scheme. The W:A scheme is just like this because when W:A released there was no way to edit Fall damage and shit and it was just dealt with as THE roper scheme. People never actually made the effort in W:A to try it. And when I got into w2 around 2004 the first time (better late than never, eh?) I really saw the deep tactical aspect a w2 roper had.
Hands down w2 roper was/is a lot more tactical than any W:A roper ever was. Not saying w2 Roper is perfect but in it's setting it was extremely well developed and balanced. Not saying that scheme is the glorified roper scheme I am sure there are even better ways for a nice roper, but it has a lot more thought put into it.
Actually W:A Roper scheme is the only scheme that never changed although we have almost endless possibilities with scheme editors. Team17 changed, Elite changed, everything even BnG if I recall correctly.
Edit: Some additional thoughts.
The w2 roper scheme was such a great scheme because there was no set scheme. Some people used grannies some did not. Same with cow, sheep, and dyno.
Some people put more emphasis on zooks making them worth 55 max damage and some people totally removed them from the scheme.
Some people said crate before attack as a rule and some didn't. Same as crate blowing and afr.
Some people used 1 worm, some 2, and some even used 3 worms like Irwlz did.
Some people used 12 sec turn time some used 10.
It was great because there was many ways to play roper and everyone used there own unique scheme which suited them better.
Being able to drop well was rewarded because of higher fd (everyone had different settings of fd) making the scheme a lot more skillful.
However, this only worked because it was a ladder system and you were forced to play the scheme of the higher ranked person since it was the only way to gain rank.
On w:a this wouldn't work because you are not forced to play anyone to gain rank and can pick and choose if you want to play this person or not.
I'm glad people are finally starting to warm up to a change in the scheme though. Me and Avi have been bashing w:a's scheme for years!
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nice post anubis, nice post dub!!
dubz post brings back amazing memories :D
and anubis, it was not the option to put multiple teams, but to put miltiple worms....
but in clanner matches, having different colar teams was amazing... it a totally different strategy when you have a turn right after your clan mate... (piles, leaving cr8s, not leaving cr8s, who to hit, who not to hit)
in w2 we did not have the option to choose colors per team... so it was the luck of the draw, and each strategy was different...
if you have a turn directly after your parter, strategy was differnt then if you had you enemies turn inbetween....
basically you had to learn 4 differnt strategies (before or after your partner, or before or after your enemy---each strategy was totally different).... and master them.
..... im drunk right now so i cant express myself the way i want to...but if w:a opened their eyes to a change in ropers, it could turn into not only one of the most skillfull schems, but one of the most strategic aswell..
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I think i would give a try at w2 scheme, it seems to use much more brain than just skill in roper.
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but in clanner matches, having different colar teams was amazing... it a totally different strategy when you have a turn right after your clan mate... (piles, leaving cr8s, not leaving cr8s, who to hit, who not to hit)
in w2 we did not have the option to choose colors per team... so it was the luck of the draw, and each strategy was different...
if you have a turn directly after your parter, strategy was differnt then if you had you enemies turn inbetween....
basically you had to learn 4 differnt strategies (before or after your partner, or before or after your enemy---each strategy was totally different).... and master them.
Oh god I forgot all about that!! Yea clanners owned! I always wanted a clan league for w2 instead of people just posting bullshit wins and losses on their clansites! *cough* sw *cough*
A better scheme is definitely now possible.
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Not trying to sound arrogant but, what's the point in using the past? Aren't we supposed to move forward and create something new?
I don't see how anything that continously changes and is never the same can be so tactical lol ,and for me Roper should be more physical than "tactical", it's a physical skill, it should be how good someone is with the Rope, not tactics that win the game lol.
MI, f@#!ing remove Karma already you pussy lol. (I wrote this as I said it, in a friendly "making fun of" way, not a hostile way, if you choose to read it as hostile, you are an idiot, I feel I have to point this out because most people here act like they are f@#!ing Jesus the good Samaritan.)
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Yeah I mixed that up with different team colors, I did a few w2 clanners back then, and it was amazing. =)
Komo: I am all for creating a new scheme, I even did so a few months ago, something along the lines with wall2wall / checkpoints, with and without cr8s and fine-tuning Turn Timer and Retreat Timer. Unfortunately dark was the only one really giving it a try or enjoying it.
So before I would start building a new scheme from scratch it would actually help if people would at least accept that Roper isn't up to date with current standards. To make it more attractive (in my opinion) it needs to be changed. Roper is really boring if you know how to do it. After years of experience you know your own capabilities and some maps just punch you in your face and you know when you can't reach a cr8 without risking too much, there is no choice, there is absolutely no depth in 1v1 Roper.
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Btw, when I said, you are an idiot etc blah blah blah, I didn't mean to direct that at you MI, I meant anyone lol.
I played your scheme, I enjoyed it, but, I never really seen you again, not to mention it just, didn't happen again :(
I am all up for testing mate :)
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First I'd need an Image for W:A. I lost it during my transfer to my new PC. Anyone? *hint hint* :D
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pm
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Didn't get one though. :x
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i sent you an email by mistake, check that
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Not trying to sound arrogant but, what's the point in using the past? Aren't we supposed to move forward and create something new?
I don't see how anything that continously changes and is never the same can be so tactical lol ,and for me Roper should be more physical than "tactical", it's a physical skill, it should be how good someone is with the Rope, not tactics that win the game lol.
MI, f@#!ing remove Karma already you pussy lol. (I wrote this as I said it, in a friendly "making fun of" way, not a hostile way, if you choose to read it as hostile, you are an idiot, I feel I have to point this out because most people here act like they are f@#!ing Jesus the good Samaritan.)
roping was born on w2, thats the point in using the past... as some people who have played w2 have said, roping was at its best on that game, hands down...
and how can you say how can somthing that continuously changes be tactical? wtf.... ever play elite komo?
and roper is always going to be about skill... but if you throw tactics in there, it just adds to the fun, and skill...wouldnt you say smart tactics is a form of skill?
and its hilarious that you have to follow your "pussy" comment with parenthesis explaining yourself, then even a follow up post explaining your explanation.. thats epic.
ps: dub, f@#! you sw never lied about clanners.. why would we have reported losses on our site if that was the case?? your just bitter cuz you got spanked so many times, and it was the best damn w2 clan since tmnr :D
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Yeah I know that's epic avi, but I seriously have to mention it because people always get the wrong idea, you can't deny that lol.
I disagree with roping was at it's best on w2, for you yeah, but everyone has their own comfort zone mate.
I do agree, roper always about skill, and adding tactics without creating too much opportunity for luck is great mate, and yes it's skill, but that's mental skill, nothing wrong with, I am just saying the biggest part should definately stick to physical skill, that much is obvious though ain't it.
And yeah I played elite, i've played over 100 TEL's lol, I ain't as bad as you think at elite, I ain't good but I ain't stupid, my trouble is I give up too easy, as soon as something I really want to work and see very useful in my head, and I miss, I get too angry at myself and just give up.
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I disagree with roping was at it's best on w2, for you yeah, but everyone has their own comfort zone mate.
Roper is roper, both w:a and w2 take a lot of skill to play.
However, w2 might have been slightly harder because it was faster and taken a bit more skill (also has to be careful shadowing near cr8s or you would lose your turn).
The scheme was more strategic, because you were rewarded more for fall damage. A good drop could easier get 56-58 damage where on w:a you get 1 or 2 damage. So good drops and knocking where you can get fd is not really of great importance on w:a.
Playing with 2 worms or 3 worms took more strategy similar to w:a clan games. Have to keep health even and decide whether you could afford to skip a hard cr8 or not because of health.
There was strategy in skipping cr8s. If you could knock and get enough fd on a worm then it was worth skipping a harder cr8.
Blocks were allowed. There was great skill in attacking a worm so it would land someone that you could block him. Only 5 sec retreat so this took a lot of skill. Also the skill of getting unblocked quickly.
W:A however has one major improvement over w2. I loved w:a's water drops. They definitely got that right!!!
This is just some of the stuff I remember, I know I have forgotten lots which Avi and others could point out.
So seriously Komo, how do you know w2 roper wasn't better? No offence, I know you like to have an opinion on everything, but if you never played w2 then I don't see how you can have an opinion on that matter.
Go play a couple thousand ladder games on w2 then state your opinion. Its like me telling you bng was better on w2 and me never playing a single bng on w:a. I would be talking out my ass.
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Who said I never played w2? I did play it but no point even arguing.
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I believe that if you're a good w2 roper and move to WA, it will be harder for you to cope than if you're a very good WA roper and move to w2. Obviously this doesn't prove whichever takes more skill, but I've found this to be the case based on my own experience.
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What wa roper needs is destructible terrain. There, I said it :P
I played a few games with dub with no rules, 10s, and 5s retreat with destructible terrain - its fun. The map opens up more as the game goes on so it's not the same old hides/moves and I like the way the game develops that way. It's also a balance between whether you attack without crate, try both etc, adds some extra strategy into it.
I realise this will never catch on but it's not gonna stop me playing funners like this. Where is avi's w2 rope scheme?
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I realise this will never catch on but it's not gonna stop me playing funners like this. Where is avi's w2 rope scheme?
here (https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-303/)
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scheme that requires most skills to handle - Elite
You have a large array of weapons and you gotta be able to execute with them. Many different properties and dynamics you have to be familiar with. Also, you need smart tactics in the first place and the skill to pull them off. Also, there are luck factors in elite and you need skill to counter those.
As for ttrr, sure it takes a lot of skill, but compared to elite, idk... Is ttrr pure skill or is a lot of it muscle memory? Imagine how many times you've climbed or scrolled in a ttrr, there has got to be some muscle memory there, especially if you are pumping around the place... I doubt you can actually look at your worm going at those speeds and ready your finger to press the space at the right time.... a lot of it has to be experience and memorizing the timing for those things to work out.
If the question was which scheme had the least amount of luck, ttrr would win hands down, but that doesn't mean it takes the most skill to handle...
Bng? uhh, sure, those shots are pure skill, but to me, it is like getting a strike in bowling... it is a lot easier to get a strike at bowling (bng) than to make a half court shot in basketball (ttrr)... one is just more extreme...
anyway, idk why i wrote all of that because the scheme are so different... it is like comparing football, basketball, hockey, and baseball.... baseball wins hands down, by the way. who wants to argue that?
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baseball wins hands down, by the way. who wants to argue that?
If you open a thread I'll gladly tell you everything about how I think soccer is the team sports that requires the most amount of skill, then there's a gap, and then there's basketball and baseball. Hockey I can't comment and football is the sport that takes the least amount of skill out of the top team sports all over the world.
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handling slaves requires a lot of skill too.
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yes, human resources :P
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sorry ropa, I don't want to open a thread
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sorry ropa, I don't want to open a thread
Well, I was thinking that if we were to listen to an american talk about sports it'd be best all in one thread to make it easier to ignore.
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zzzzzzzzz
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i like turtles
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RR = good space
bng = skill the right res
elite = thinking out side the box
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la la la laaa
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la la la laaa
A lalalalaLong
A lalalalaLongLong
Li Long Long Long :-*
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Lol Husk I love your signature, I can do that voice perfect xD