Which schemes requires most skills to handle?

[avirex]

a game involving as much skill as roper, should not have a luck factor...

thats why i tried to push w2roper scheme, but no one wants to evolve, and thats fine.. i have finally come to acceptance

but its funny how dubc and franz are the only ones that dont acknowledge cr8 rape... and the rest of w:a does...

franz your main argument is you never see a perfect game.. but maybe that has something to do with the cr8 rape itself? lol... if you have all easy cr8s, you play the perfect game... if i have all hard cr8s i have a higher chance to make mistakes, and when i do... you will blame my mistake, and not my cr8...  its interesting

[Crazy]

Indeed, there is not that much luck involved. There are so many other things then just where the crate lands which decides the game. There are different factors, even factors people dont think over enough, like which wormer collects the crate in the most effiecence way (Mirux/Mil2 is extaordinary when it comes to being efficient collecting the crates). Surely, some games you`re f@#!ed over by crates, but most games are decided by skill

[franz]

avi, dubc and I aren't saying random crates don't affect every game. they do.
we're saying that skill and mistakes decide roper games.

and it's not just us. just looking in those old threads, lots of people agree:
crazy
flex
monkeyisland
spw
madden
husk
cueshark
random00

and likely more

even you had an interesting quote back then:

i agree with franz and johnny too... if you play perfectly, u will more then likely win...

but why should 1 played have to roper farther, roper longer, and rope more consistantly then the other roper... the luck factor is much to large in roper games, and dominate.

why do u think the elite scheme got rid of cr8s? because it added un-needed luck....

but nah, lets not make any changes to roper scheme to get rid of the luck factor.. ITS CLASSIC!

I'm serious, if you can popularize a crateless roper, then that's the solution.
w2roper still has random crates that affect games, so that's not the solution either.

your best bet is to find some hybrid between roper and wxw that gets rid of the weapon drops, but still requires equal distance to rope if you truly want to be fair.

[avirex]

i dont think enough people gave w2roper a try, for long enough... if anyone seen the skill, and strategy involved in it they would quickly take it it...

i dont think a roper game with no cr8s would be very fun, i guess there just will never be a solution...

lets not have another w2roper debate im fine with roper how it is, as long as we all can agree it has a large luck factor.

[Husk]

 

[Anubis]

Less HP in each cr8 would make it less depending where a cr8 drops, you either decide w2w or get a cr8 that has like 5-10HP.
Having choice is something Roper lacks. Every scheme actually has choices within their rules and boundaries. Maybe let's start there? Of course it's pointless if the majority doesn't want the change and if TUS doesn't have the balls to enforce it, it won't happen.

[avirex]

dont bother anubis... majority dont want to see change, and wont even give a change a try... the main thing i hear is "roper is classic, it does not need to be changed"  roper has been these settings since w:a was made, w2 ropers came and showed them how to rope, and because they were newb at the time they decided to make their own scheme, of 15 second/ 10 retreat... and i doubt that will ever evolve...


i remember as a diehard w2er, how against switching to w:a i was... but one day i gave it a try, i was in complete shock when i seen 25 second total turn time..  but all these years later, the shock is finally starting to wear off, and im accepting of more retreat time then a mines detonation

[Aerox]

the more time was a direct response to slower rope. You seem to imply it wasn't a logical change?

[Anubis]

Well and it was a direct response to Team17 that they suck and forgot to make scheme creation more flexible. 15turn 10 retreat is more or less a forced value due to the lack of flexibility. Nowadays we could create a MUCH better luckless scheme because of all the scheme editors we have.

RR evolved into a way better skillful scheme when the game finally allowed Time Trial turns, Roper just seems to be stuck in time and that's why other schemes are more popular (or skillful if you want), it never changed, just like BnG it could be better (or popular if you want) too I am sure. But it seems these schemes rules are carved in stone and whenever someone wants to change anything only a couple people support it and no league with impact (like TUS) shows any support or interest. And no, I am not talking about "we will make a poll and see if people want it", that's no support. Things like trying out the scheme for a season, and not "if someone says no to it you can't play it". (avirex w2r could at least been taken serious when it was around, but TUS didn't)

[Mablak]

Roper is pretty luck-based, but mostly it just doesn't have as high a skill cap as other schemes. In RR, elite, inter, BnG, I feel like I've always been able to improve a little bit each year, but roper just kind of stagnates. I've lost most of my interest in it since there are far better schemes out there, the only problem is that it's hard to come up with a similar enough replacement for it (if that's really necessary, which I'm not so sure about).

But I agree, we should look for alternatives. Even wxw is starting to look better to me, provided the map is difficult enough. My main beef with the scheme is that all the maps are quite simple, if we had some less linear ones that required slightly more difficult roping, it might be a viable alternative. And you could make it more roper-like as far as weaps and crates go. This discussion certainly has happened a lot though, and it probably won't lead anywhere, as usual >_o.

[Dub-c]

Roper is pretty luck-based, but mostly it just doesn't have as high a skill cap as other schemes. In RR, elite, inter, BnG, I feel like I've always been able to improve a little bit each year, but roper just kind of stagnates. I've lost most of my interest in it since there are far better schemes out there, the only problem is that it's hard to come up with a similar enough replacement for it (if that's really necessary, which I'm not so sure about).

But I agree, we should look for alternatives. Even wxw is starting to look better to me, provided the map is difficult enough. My main beef with the scheme is that all the maps are quite simple, if we had some less linear ones that required slightly more difficult roping, it might be a viable alternative. And you could make it more roper-like as far as weaps and crates go. This discussion certainly has happened a lot though, and it probably won't lead anywhere, as usual >_o.

Why is roper pretty luck-based? I know its just your opinion but it would be nice to know where this is coming from.

[Aerox]

Why is roper pretty luck-based? I know its just your opinion but it would be nice to know where this is coming from.

Because provided virtual equal skill between opponents luck will incline the balance to one way or the other, and it will do so numerous times during a certain match.
In RR it would be a draw, in BnG it would be whoever goes first and in Elite it doesn't matter because the amount of factors in play make it irrelevant who goes first or second. In Roper a random number generator determines the difficulty of your next turn, regardless of who wins, one will have put more effort in the form of measurable skill than the other, and in certain games, it's not even the winner who does.

Thinking out of the box here, eliminating luck factors from BnG  is something that rubberworm could achieve. In Bng, if you go had the first turn of the game, and you eventually kill your opponent with a last shot, he doesn't die in that inmediate turn but gets an extra shot giving him the possibility of a draw. Also wind lasting for two turns, instead of one.


In roper I guess it's way more complicated, I've given many thoughts to a WxW - Roper hybrid, I even had some conceptual ideas for the maps, which were a mix of both. Obviously the scheme is tweaked, and healt crates kick in in detriment of weapon drops. We could be up to something, providing there's interest-.

[avirex]

the more time was a direct response to slower rope. You seem to imply it wasn't a logical change?

ropa, sure... and extra second would be fine... but do you really think that the current level of skill needs 15 seconds, and lets just assume they do because of the cr8 rule (which should be eliminated)

what justifies 10 second retreat?? i know you want to be able to pile after a mine.. but come on, thats not skillfull, in w2 if we wanted to pile we would be forced to nade or zook.

i wish tus gave more support to my scheme, but they didnt... and i guess i cant blame MI, he tries to make everyone happy.. and half of the community wase against it (i think the fact that i was the main supported played part in that) 

i would be open to trying an new scheme u come up with ropa... but i was simply trying to update the current scheme, not create a totally different one.. but whatever works is fine with me....

im not saying my w2roper scheme was the perfect settings, but it was a start... i even said i was open to any suggestions on changing it to make it better...but alot of people never even gave it a try, they just bashed it from start.. it was pretty disappointing.. every scheme on w:a has evolved for the better where as like mablak said, roper is just stagnant and stuck in the past.

[DarkOne]

i wish tus gave more support to my scheme, but they didnt...

That's funny. I remember it differently.
I remember TUS allowed for w2 roper if both players agreed.
I remember we allowed you to host a w2 roper cup, which you promptly abandoned after you got eliminated in the group phase.

If you really stand for something, then you should be able to stick with it.

[TheKomodo]

In RR it would be a draw, in BnG it would be whoever goes first and in Elite it doesn't matter because the amount of factors in play make it irrelevant who goes first or second. In Roper a random number generator determines the difficulty of your next turn, regardless of who wins, one will have put more effort in the form of measurable skill than the other, and in certain games, it's not even the winner who does.

Thinking out of the box here, eliminating luck factors from BnG  is something that rubberworm could achieve. In Bng, if you go had the first turn of the game, and you eventually kill your opponent with a last shot, he doesn't die in that inmediate turn but gets an extra shot giving him the possibility of a draw. Also wind lasting for two turns, instead of one.

I have to disagree, going 2nd is best in BnG(as long as it's a nice map), you always have the chance of teleporting out of their distance because they placed evil, or anywhere you think is hard to hit from their position, even in a 100% hit count from both players doesn't mean 1st player wins, taking pushes into account, which the better players haved improved on over the last few years, the last year in particular people actually use the phrase and try it intentionally, you can prevent your opponent from attacking forcing them to miss a turn and move.

Your idea of not dying is great, could just start game with 250hp and say threshold is 200.

I'll support a new Rope scheme, who wants to brainstorm together and test some stuff out?