Here's a replay with cr8s. The main goal are still the checkpoints. Even if someone hides on top with a huge lead he still has to show roping skills. And that's what Roper is about, consistent roping over a long time with good use of weapons.

Here are 3 replays.

As you can see it works on every map. Even the evil ones didn't take ages or something, the open ones weren't too easy. For every kind of roper the same difficult.

DarK mentioned that he misses cr8s. I thought about adding 1-5HP cr8s that drop everyturn but you DONTHAVE to collect them. Main goal are the 2 checkpoints.

Yo, since I understand that a variety of maps is important I think the scheme must be changed, I am currently working on a solution and I came up with some ideas, what I removed out of the scheme were cr8s. That instantly means no cr8 luck anymore.

- Raised the HP to 250 (can be more if games take too long/are too fast over)
- Turn timer still set to 15 (can be adjusted)

The Problem was that no cr8s mean no reason to rope around so I had to get a reason for people to rope around the map. So I came up with a checkpoint like system. Roper maps ALWAYS have 2 islands, that is a fact and I know of no map that has just 1 island (except some w2 rope maps) or 3 islands.

One checkpoint is always the left wall/right wall it depends where YOUR worm stands.

Example:

You hide on the left island, you have to go for the right wall.

This system is not that interesting, you don't have to rope around that much like you do with cr8s. So I thought about adding another checkpoint that the person who picked roper can decide (it is his pick, so the one picking should have the freedom of choice). It worked on every map, on some maps you have to make some space but basically you go into the editor and just make a little square (squares are easier to spike/shadow at than just a huge ball), in the lower middle part. So now we have 2 checkpoints. The Middle checkpoint doesn't need to be touched, but you need to connect the rope to it, this will reduce arguments if a player touched the part or not. (Everyone can see if the rope was connected to the square or not)

The cr8 before attack gets replaced by: Checkpoints before attack. It's still CBA

Lets get back to the Example.


Example:

You hide on the left island, you have to go for the right wall. After that you connect to the square in the middle part, THEN you are allowed to attack.

The order 1st square or 1st wall is not given. You can decide yourself if you go for the middle checkpoint 1st or go with the wall checkpoint 1st.

Ok now people could say: What if a player picks a map that is so hard the lower skilled player will just wait for the better playing roper to make a mistake. This will be easily countered with a tiny rule: If you don't reach both checkpoints in your turn, you will have to SKIP your turn. This will give the other player the opportunity to safely rope to the 2 checkpoints and then hide top map. The other player will have to skip and next turn gets an easy attack.

It is not a violation of the rules to shoot your weapon and after wards go to the checkpoints. Just don't shoot your opponent. It's still CBA. (Checkpoint before attack)

P.S.: It's still in development, but the few tests I did offline I never ever lost because of luck. It is pure skill. The better roper will always win this game. If you find flaws please tell me. Or if you have a better idea to remove cr8 luck tell me.

In Elite we have removed cr8s, because they dropped at random places and could decide a game. It's time to do the same in Roper!

Quote from: avirex on August 21, 2010, 10:00 PM
thats exactly what is going to happen... the people that voted no with no reason other then ... either dont like me... dont like ropers... or dont like change... they will NEVER try this scheme, just always refuse.. but whatever

I voted no, I like you, I like ropers and I love changes + I know how w2ropers are because I have played them a lot on w2. BnG with LG and all that shit I loved it. Removing cr8s from elite, good thing. And even my clan history proves I like change. So why, in your opinion, have I voted no? I could tell you exactly why, but I wanna know why you think people vote no except these strange reasons you posted.

Just had a fun roper with dark and he took an usual map that is used for ropers. The map itself isn't that hard to rope on but when I saw the hides I was like WTF is this supposed to do good cept for cr8 rape. I will show you what I mean by putting worms into the hides/areas which are totally dumb and explain why.

Pause game after all worms have been placed.

Vader: Wtf is this? Noone will ever hide there, the chances of getting FD are immense and even zooking is easy as shit. Fill area with Land.

Baumwurzel: This hide would be an ok hide, it's not really the best but it would fit for a hide. You can easily attack the worm and doing FD is hard. (Remember 1 positive and 1 negative)

Behemoth: Ultra f@#!ing useless hide, easy FD, easy to attack and even easy to zook. Fill with land.

Astgeflecht: This hide is sweet for a 1st turn anti zook hide. After that is becomes useless due the high chance of FD and you can attack worm easily even without knock. Hide can stay because of its tactical anti zook.

Bolt Thrower: This hide is again very useless, easy knock, easy attack, high chances of FD. Fill with land.

Blumengestrüpp: WTF? Fill with land. It's just getting cr8s there.

Amon Amarth: The whole area down there is extremely bullshit and only does the thing we hate: drops of cr8s we can't possible make an attack after. The hide where the worm is standing is good, it should be transported to the left side to have at least 2 good hides on the left side.

Unterholz: All the 5 hides are useless, well the one above Unterholz is at least a tiny bit ok.

Looking at this map all I can see are 2, maximum 3 hides that are useful in a roper match, the rest is just space for cr8s that can rape you.

Dunno how to make this quote look good so I will use this as my response xD.

Quote from: ShyGuy on August 21, 2010, 08:27 PM
Oh my... I cringed when I read anubis describing the amount of hides and quality of hides should be on a map...  Players use the best 1 or 2 hides on a map all game, I just you want to make it more obvious which hides those are by limiting the amount... Tell me what is so fun about mindlessly fetching crates and returning to the same hide all game? Especially on one of these god forsaken miracle maps you guys preach about?  Sounds like the most boring game of my life, if you ask me.  

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
Hell I would say even if you make 2 plain Hills in a map with almost zero obstacles still 99% of the time the more skilled roper will win...

You mean 99% of the time whoever goes first will win?

No I mean that the one using the weapons better will win. People actually try to make roper another RR. Well believe me or not but 5 years + ago I was a shitty RR but still managed to be extremely good in Ropers. A good Roper was capable of: Never fall, always get cr8 + attack, most of the time you could do fd to a worm even though it was hiding on the bottom of the map. Nowadays most map don't allow you to do cr8 + attack because it's impossible, would you TTRR where it is impossible to get through a part? I would not. And don't tell me that's because of the evolution of wormers, I was one of the wormers that evolved so fast and I didn't like RR although I was good at the ropes. Most NBR (cept volrin, wargod) guys weren't THAT good at RR but owned at roper. It used to be 2 different things. We had ownage RR and we had ownage Ropers. People made maps closer to RR or tighter/harder so people that are good at ropers now are even good at RR and vice versa. Thats WRONG!!! The schemes/maps should encourage you to rope different to start with. You should feel good at roper or good at rr not both at the same time if you havn't practised both schemes.

Quote from: Komo on August 21, 2010, 05:25 PM
avirex, anubis is right though, it's got ridiculous, and fixing the maps is obviously the better choice because it has already been proven to work in the past, no scheme will fix these maps...

If you want to talk about the past, why do you not mention how w2 evolved their roping scheme over the years?
No scheme will fix the maps?  Make me the hardest roper map you can make, and w2roper will "fix" it... if you want to know how it "fixes" it, read the countless number of points and arguments we have made in this thread, or play the scheme.

From what I'm reading, you guys want roper to be played on some marshmallow and cupcake map, with one or two hides being used the whole game, and where not a shred of tactical thinking comes into play... Because if you ask me, ANY scheme which requires killing a worm has to have tactics to it.

I have played w2 scheme, like I have said I have played w2 ladders, even got up to top10.  Ah btw: The reason w2scheme has lower turn timer isn't even mentioned here. It's not because people couldn't set 15, or 14. But the maps they use + the a lot faster roping you have in w2 due the engine made the w2 scheme have less seconds. And the reason we have 15 seconds is because simply in early days before patch x.x W:A were not able to set 12-13 seconds.

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 02:13 PM

1. Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects. (cr8 luck depends on the room there is inbweteen the land for cr8s, it's totally unnecessary)
2. A f@#!ing thousand hides with basically zero use in a real roper. (Why offer 15 useless hides when only one good hide is used; instead create 2-3 good ones on each side of the map) less possibly cr8 rape. fabrousse maps for example are not that high, but have a thousand hides. You think someone with a chainsaw randomly went through the map just to make hides with no real purpose.

Would you not agree that rr is one of the best ways to show off your roping abilities and skill?  So why not implement that into A ROPING SCHEME?  w2roper allows you to play on these "Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects",  you aren't forced to get the crate... but the more skilled you are at roping in this environment, the more likely you will be able to get further crates and attack.  If you are truly a better roper than your opponent, then your crate length span should be larger than his, thus making true skill pay off.

Yes, it's a good way to show RR skills, but it shouldn't be implemented in Roper because it should be a different scheme, not a rr with cr8s. And I have already said in my initial post: I am pro w2scheme, but use the exact same scheme, your scheme currently has some flaws that could be fixed by using the official w2 scheme.

Quote from: Anubis on August 21, 2010, 09:08 AM
Another thing what I wanted to say is, basically most people believe the easier the map the higher the chances for a newb to win the match. Well if that would be the case newbs would win easy RR maps. Like 20sec turners. But that is not the case.

Every time you come up with a scenario, you compare a pro with a noob, which is why your arguments and points are so convoluted and just plain out wrong.  You don't tus someone nowadays that totally has no rhythm at roping or idea what they are doing, except for a few exceptions... those of which you shouldn't have a problem with anyway...

w2roper was made so the more skilled player could win more often than not... For example, dibz could be playing alcoholico at a regular roper... dibz is a much more skilled and distinguished roper than alcoholico, but alcoholico is still good at roping... he can go and fetch crates just like anyone else who knows how to use a rope...  What roper today was doing, was allowing the alcoholicos of ropers win against the dibzes because of bad crate drops.  Period.  There are no tactics, no chance for one another to outsmart each other for an edge. Period.  If you had these 2 play on your plain, lower, wide roper maps for 100 matches, I am betting you the score would be closer to 50-50 than what w2roper has to offer.  The better roper and better strategist will be able to win more often than not. Period.

Anubis, it is true if you play a noob at a 20 second turner, it won't be easier to win... but only because HE IS A NOOB.  I know from experience the wider the rr map gets, the closer the times become when two good ropers are playing.  The tighter the map gets, the bigger the gaps become.  A time of 50 vs a time of 52 on an AZ01 map, for example, does not show much... but if you took those same ropers and put them on a tighter qp map, the difference would be greater.  

Maybe I put the wrong term, I didn't want to say newbs, I just wanted to express lower skilled ropers than the current bext ropers. So sorry for that missinformation. I still believe the more skilled roper will win vs. a lower skilled roper when maps are a lot easier. Currently the lower skilled roper can win vs. the higher skilled one. (W:A Roper is still the offical one if both parties don't agree on (w2)roper scheme.

And why the f@#! have you changed the official w2 scheme! You talk about tactics yet you get rid of destructable land, that part made it a lot more tactical than your crippled w2 scheme!

Quote from: CMV on August 21, 2010, 07:57 PM
Creating very tough roper maps is like creating w12w-s or 8000x8000+ shopper maps. It's not the scheme's fault, but the people's who love to exceed the borders. Don't want to get crateraped? Grab a map where you can rope smoothly, and voilá! No crate rape anymore. Don't complain about getting wet after jumping into the river. I agree with Anubis and Komo.

I don't like wxw, w4w, w8w, w12w, etc, at all, but what you are saying is that you want one of those wide maps with at most 4 walls with no hides... They are all over the place, and they take 2 minutes to make in ms paint... enjoy roping around 8 lines connected to each other

No, what CMV means is that you shouldn't try to make the hardest roper map on earth with a million obstacles and then complain it's the scheme fault. The map makers try to bend the borders of whats possible but noone tests if it is actually possible and still the maps get used in LEAGUE games. BnG maps used to be shitty, but then people found a way to make even hides on both sides, BnG Maps sometimes had uneven hides, the team that started first got a better side and the match was over if the guys could play BnG well. Noone has ever thought about a standard for Roper maps. We even have a standard for TTRR maps, most maps are 40-55 in league matches. It's doable for everyone. I dont see 90+ seconds ultra tight maps which only 2-3 RRers can do well. We need something like that in ropers too.

And as final words:

We have fair maps, in TTRR, in BnG, in Elite. Why can't we have fair maps in Roper?

Sorry for doublepost but I don't want to create so many wall of texts.

My idea of hides on each island side:

General: A good hide should always have 1-2 positive effect and at least 1 negative effect. If a hide only has positive effects for the one hiding in it it will be abused.

Hide #1: Easy to knock worm, easy to attack without knock, hard to do fall damage. "Good for beginning of the match"
Hide #2: Hard to knock worm, easy or medium to attack without knock, but if you are a skilled knocker you can make easy fd to your opponent 50-55. "Beginning of match or midgame"
Hide #3: Hard to knock worm, hard to attack without knock, but if you knock you do fd it's 65+; would be in upper Part of the island. "Best for situations when you have low health so you need to avoid an attack"

This should be on left/right side.

On top of each island a little hide with a little risk of getting FD for the winning worm when it's near the end with a quite huge advantage.

That's it, noone can tell me someone can create 20+ hides that have a pattern, a purpose. They are just made for the love of making hides. When I pick maps out of the map editor I don't look how complex the map is, I look out for fair hides and fair map flow. (No bottleneck where you need to rr up)

really, we have so many creative map makers in the community. Has never anyone of you thought about defeating cr8 luck by making fair roper maps? I mean you know the problem, you know how you can reduce cr8 luck, why is noone attempting it? Stop making millions of RR maps. Make 50-100 ownage roper maps with fair hides, no pixels, a nice flow, and try to reduce cr8 luck to zero. (cr8 drops that are really impossible) You don't even need to be a good roper to know when a map has spots where you cant get cr8 + attack. :O

We can decide where the cr8s have to drop, the engine just randomly chooses one place. So we need to reduce the place for the cr8s that are too hard for 15 seconds. We can guide the engine to the places we want it to drop.

Let's stop being the slaves of the engine! Lets rise against the engine! xD

It's the generation ttrr, when I was in SfX, sometimes in clanners it was even said, Map's too high, please reduce height. It was not uncommon to do Powerspikes in serious ropers, you had the room, VolcoM, SupremE (Makaveli the german one), Jmoberg and many more had awesome power spikes which they even used in league games. How many power spikers have we left? 0, maybe once in a lifetime someone does them but they disappeared long long time ago in clanners. You could cross the map within 4 seconds, do a powerspike. Get back up and still have about 3-4 seconds left even if the cr8 was at the possible worst position on the map. And there were people that could do that every turn, it was pure skill. Now you see people lurking on the map (compared to older maps). The generation ttrr (it began with the rise of ttrr, rr30seconds/45 it was still good) brought a lot of cr8 luck to the maps. It seems most map makers want to create maps where there are:

1. Extremely stupid caverns with RR aspects. (cr8 luck depends on the room there is inbweteen the land for cr8s, it's totally unnecessary)
2. A f@#!ing thousand hides with basically zero use in a real roper. (Why offer 15 useless hides when only one good hide is used; instead create 2-3 good ones on each side of the map) less possibly cr8 rape. fabrousse maps for example are not that high, but have a thousand hides. You think someone with a chainsaw randomly went through the map just to make hides with no real purpose.
3. Destroy the fluent creation of the map by the editor. Why the f@#! do people need to change so much in the map editor. It creates pixels, looks shitty and most of the time you can't improve an already good map. If a map is crap in the map editor you can't edit it to be good. If a map is good in the map editor leave it how it is. 1-2 hides on the left side, 1-2 in the middle and 1-2 good hides on the right. You don't need more, get it! You can leave the island alone, yeah the big land. No you don't need to make a lot of tiny holes, and you don't need to add a few torch like passages...

Sometimes I think the map would work perfectly for an elite map. So much caverns and hides, just awesome. If your map is capable of being an elite map it's a fail map.

Maybe I will post some randomly generated maps that, in my opinion, would certainly suit well for a roper match. Maybe even show some maps that are totally stupid to rope on to clarify what I want to express.

Over the time the maps got harder, if we would need something to change it's the turn time. 15 seconds are on some hardcore maps not even enough to make it to a crate on the same island. (You hide deep in the left side of the left island, cr8 is right side deep into the left island. If you use elite maps then at least use elite turn timer. j/k

But I guess people are too used to this new kind of roping. (rr like)

Edit: Maybe it's generation elite, elite was not that popular years ago, by the look of some maps they are def. generation elite. xD There are maximum 4 worms in a roper, I'd say 8 hides maximum are well enough (if you decide not to pile). But what do we have? 20 hides +..... 20+ chances of cr8 rape. Smart map creation that is yup yup... -.-

Hey ropa, either get rid of the last c or I add a c to my clantag.

Smoking already?

I totally agree with komo, it's not about the scheme or the cr8s or even the rules. It's simply about the maps. Why do we need highly complex maps where you basically need to rr through a cavern to get a cr8. (I am myself a good rrer so I don't have a problem with it) But still can't get the reason. It makes no sense. Why are there maps where, even if you rope like a demigod, you can't possibly make it to the cr8 + attack. Have you ever noticed that lower skilled people usually ALWAYS pick harder maps? Not because they are more funnier, it's just so they have a higher chance of cr8 rape. When I hosted ropers I made maps that were fairly low, not that complex and I usually won them or lost because I f@#!ed up.

And Avi, you talk about w2 scheme and stuff, I have played w2 ropers, even ladder and almost all maps were really easy. And that's why in w2 the land was destructable, because it didn't matter if land got destroyed as the map itself was already easy. I have a w2 rope mappack and there is maximum 1-2 hard maps where I would say, ok there it could be possible not to get cr8 + attack.

Old players knew what is right, easier maps mean less cr8 rape. The solution is so easy, yet so less see it.

Most people blame the maps, pixel here, pixel there. f@#!ing hide, etc. and what do people change? The scheme/rules... yeah right wake up. ^^

It's basically like when we are playing on flat maps bng and people complain about straight zook shots, what will they do? Add a rule don't straight zook instead of changing map.

And another thing, check all the very old competitive players, Jmoberg and his rival hamster. both players would nowadays suck ass because the maps are totally uncommon for them. And warmer maps were the same, open no weird cavern RR style. why would you warm on maps when in reality you rope on 3x harder maps, makes no sense. It's basically when you train for a 45 sec RR maps and practise on something like 20sec map. I remember back in the days (WL, Cl2k) it was normal for ropers to use maps from SfX, and they were so open and yet so fair. I don't remember any cr8 rape. If you were a top roper you could do any cr8 + attack.

fact is, back in the days there existed almost no cr8 rape. The technical thing added to Ropers added cr8 luck. People added more land, weird caverns and that shit to maps to make it interesting, that is right it is more interesting. But it is NOT useful to get rid of cr8 rape.

Another thing what I wanted to say is, basically most people believe the easier the map the higher the chances for a newb to win the match. Well if that would be the case newbs would win easy RR maps. Like 20sec turners. But that is not the case. And the same would happen for easier roper maps. Hell I would say even if you make 2 plain Hills in a map with almost zero obstacles still 99% of the time the more skilled roper will win...

And more fall damage like in w2 would add skill. in w2 if you messed up it was basically a GG, you could get up to 100 dmg if you naded someone well. And even if you hit someone on the bottom you could do a lot more dmg than you can with W:A scheme. That and waterdrop (another thing totally senseless added to the roper scheme in W:A in my opinion) should be changed.

Well I think that's enough for now, that's how I would get rid of cr8 luck. Just another scheme without looking at the source of the problem isn't doing good.

Last but not least, your w2 scheme ported to W:A added wind luck since zooka is the most powerful attack in your scheme. There are also impossible zooka shots with certain hides/wind so another luck factor added to the already existing cr8 luck. In worms2 the nade was the best. Zooka only if time ran out or hide was too hard for a decent nade so you simply destroyed the hide. -.-

I am pro w2 ropers. But at least port it 1:1. same scheme, same maps, same fd same weapon priority.

Whatever will be done, I hope it is at least fun. :p

P.S.: I would rather lose to someone who roped perfect (no fall, good attacks, fd) than to one f@#!ing cr8 that dropped in a hell of a cavern on the other island EVEN if I know the other player can't rope that well.

lol, I dunno, if that's a problem for any of you guys I can just remap the keys to something different so the keylock is gone. No problem at all.

Actually, komo, Chakkman is right!

The IBM Rapid Access II has a keylock, but since I will use 2 connected keyboards for roping that's no problem. I have always used one keyboard on the desk for arrow controlling and one on my lap for tapping.

Btw I am getting this keyboard again because it's so freaking good moddable. If it wasn't for the easy modding function I wouldn't get so many. And since it's just a few euro if one breaks it's no problem. :p I already have 4 of them, all broken and when I quit worms there were none avaiable anymore so I am really lucky that some guy on ebay sells them. (Btw in total he has 22, he asked me if I want all of them xD) 8 will do tho.

I am about to order 8 pieces of my old fav. Keyboard right now, so that will be some kickass coming pretty soon. When 1 of these dies, no problem got 7 more in my stock hehe.

Btw, just 3,50 Euro (maybe 4 Euro) each is so cheap. I used to pay 20-30 Euro for one keyboard. I suppose next week they are gonna deliver. :O

I just got my old Anubis RR maps, and then I saw that I dedicated some of them to avirex, flex, deano and Mab. I think I should join mm, and benz is a BigRedMachine. He can't survive without his brother! That's if you want some rusty bullshit like me.

Some months ago I deleted all my W:A contacts on MSN to make some room. I didn't delete all but it would be good to add me again just in case:

Anubis@deathtofalsemetal.org