There are 2 positions you can stand on at the lowest point of the worm, actually the farthest position never hits, but the one closer to the worm you're standing on usually will, it only won't if the worm hasn't moved since teleporting. A lot of weapons are affected by this in some way.

And by 'moved since teleporting' I mean things like jumping, getting damaged, etc. Just walking doesn't change that state unless you walk off a cliff or something. It's because your y-value is something like 1 pixel above land after you tele, and after you start jumping around it will be somewhat random between 0 and 1.

Really important mistake I made: battle axe doesn't hit if you're standing on the lowest point of the worm, if the worm hasn't moved since teleporting. Though if it has, you can be fairly certain it'll hit if you're anywhere on the worm.

It's good for these things to happen though, the only way to internalize details like these is to have painful memories of them.

Alright eS and mm, let's say May 19th 19 GMT?

I doubt that move was intended, but cool ;O

Ugh, I'm terrible :X

109009, 109011, and 109012 have Statik, but they need to have Shyguy instead, sorry >_o

I think I just clicked on the first S name I saw

eS and mm, Saturday May 12th 20 GMT?

So, to advance this discussion, I think we should narrow down the possibilities of inter on TUS to either bo1 or bo2. Although bo2 is a strange idea, it gives a better representation of the scheme as a whole, having to keep your concentration up longer. Some people might complain about the length, but that should subside when people see that 2 rounds is shorter than most BnGs and Team17s. And far fewer will complain about luck if each side gets to start first once.

I think when it comes down to playing it, people who have rarely played the scheme will be much less afraid if it's 2 rounds, especially if they have concerns about going first or starting placements. I suppose 2-0 would just be a regular win, and 1-1 would give a bit to the lower ranked clan (and presumably a bit less to the higher clan). Of course, people would still be able to pick bo1 or bo3 if both sides agreed, we'd just be making bo2 the standard. And if it didn't work out, we could easily change it to bo1.

19 GMT is the earliest I would do, any date's fine, I can do the 30th :0

Quote from: Dario on April 26, 2012, 05:42 PM
Oh, 1 more thing I see people discussing: first turn factor.
So here the numbers:

Average of 10% more chances of winning a round were you start. Non significative difference between islands and caves (I was surprised about this, was sure the effect would be significatively bigger on islands). 95% confidence intervall: 7%-13%
Sample used: top half ONL overall ranking players, that's 14 players with at least 200 rounds played each-

It's up to you to decide whether that is big or small advantage.

Edit: there was also a positive correlation (r=0,68; p=0,01) between the advantage a player gets from first turn in caves and the advantage the same player gets from first turn in islands; indicating "how much advantage you can get from first turn" as an ability that varies from player to player.

Thanks for taking the time to gather that info Dario. 10% is lower than I thought, and isn't much different from white vs black in chess. I'd like to see how elite compares, I imagine it's pretty similar.

Quote from: NAiL on April 26, 2012, 06:17 AM

Quote from: Mablak on April 26, 2012, 05:27 AM
What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.

You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.

If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.

You quoted my whole post but only responded to one point. I responded to your point about replacing shopper with inter and how that isnt fair. The majority does not want it, if you say that out of the people who voted no outright some will try it, out of the people who voted yes but only bo3, some of those people are not going to play without bo3, and out of those who voted "yes but it needs tweaking", some of those will not play because it all depends on what the tweaks are. We can see people have reacted negatively to proposed "tweaks" and they won't play if they aren't happy with the scheme. Im counting the "yes but only bo3" votes as obsolete because bo3 inter is NOT going to be part of the classic league and we all know that.

The main point I made was that we tried intermediate as part of the classic league before, you could choose how many rounds you wanted to play, it didnt work. It isnt fair to force people to play two rounds if they dont want to, im repeating myself here, it just wont work. I agree with dub, I cannot see how adding intermediate to the classic league is going to attract new players. Everyone who wants to play it competitively is already doing so on ONL, and most of those players have no interest in playing other schemes. Repeating myself.. it wont work, we tried it before and it didnt work, what we should be discussing is what is going to replace TEL. These russian guys... they will join TUS just to pick inter in the classic league and then be forced to play ttrr and wxw..? Just dont see it working.

Id like TNL to come back or ONL to merge with TUS as I keep saying, I think thats best for intermediate on TUS.

Most of the bo3 people haven't considered bo2 yet, I'd count them as more likely 'yes' than 'no', but the poll doesn't matter that much. TNL would be fine, but it would only potentially add lasting activity for clanners (and probably only if the NNN players decide to try it), there wouldn't be much reason to play singles TNL when you can play NNNL. The reason I want it in classic league is to GET people to play it, and get some of the new players who already play it to check out TUS. Honestly, I don't see TNL being more active than TEL though.

As to why we need to try intermediate again, I said it: because of the ever-growing community of Russians/newer players who play it; the community has changed. When I'm playing intermediate with noobs, I direct them to NNNL when I remember to. I can't possibly tell them to check out TUS, because there'd be nothing they're familiar with there. I feel like that's a genuine reason to have it as an option. I would personally make an effort to tell newer players who are interested in intermediate to check out this site, and they would have a reason to stay.

But also, interest in the scheme is higher among the TUS regulars than it was last time. You've got Husk, Free, Barman, Lacoste, Random00, Thouson, Chicken, Titahemp, me, a lot more people would say they really like the scheme this time around. Things are different enough to say that it's worth a try.

Quote from: NAiL on April 26, 2012, 03:35 AM

Quote from: KoreanRedDragon on April 26, 2012, 02:51 AM

Quote from: NAiL on April 26, 2012, 02:11 AM
Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.

But more right than Intermediate? Why?

If you're going to assume that there are people out there who play TUS but won't vote in this poll even though they'd vote against Inter, someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already.

KRD, I clearly stated my reasoning for not wanting inter in the classic league.

My primary reason is that the majority of classic league players dont want it there. I dont assume people who play TUS won't vote, I know they dont because whenever there is a poll the number of votes NEVER adds up to the actual number of people who are playing tus (even in that one season).

You say people might start playing TUS because of inter, I doubt that. As Mab already said the die hard inter guys already play it on ONL, they play ONL because they dont like other schemes, only Inter! Sure, there may be the odd person who starts playing TUS CLASSIC because of inter, but everyone who is into inter is already playing inter on ONL and have been for years.

"someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already."

I really dont think so, has there even been one person in this thread who has said they will start playing if inter is added? There hasnt (correct me if im wrong), even if they did, just look at the voting, they are already outnumbered.

YES, shopper does have more right to be there because its always been there, the majority of players want it there, its bo1. Intermediate has not been a part of the classic league in any league ever before (except on tus and it failed). Now I like inter, I used to play ONL as you said, but it just doesnt work as part of a classic league when you need to play more than one round. This isnt me not wanting it because I dont like it, I dont want it because it doesnt work. Im all for brining back TNL or merging ONL, but we tried inter in the classic league and it didnt work and its not going to work if we try again for reasons that have been discussed time n time again.

Intermediate is not popular enough amongst the majority of TUS CLASSIC players to warrant it being given a place in the classic league, shopper is. If everyone was willing to play an hour long bo3 game of inter then it would work, as we can see by the votes (and what happened when inter was a part of tus classic) people are not always willing to play bo3 and I dont blame them. Personally, if everyone was happy to play bo3 I'd love inter to be part of the classic league. From past experience I know this not to be true, so no matter what id like I can see it wont work. Intermediate was a part of the classic league when TUS first started (you wernt around then), and it didnt work. I realise that this thread discusses potential changes to make it work, yet we cant agree on the changes, the community is divided as shown by the votes. This isnt my personal bias... im just being logical here.

What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.

You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.

If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.

bo1 = scheme change ;O

Quote from: NAiL on April 26, 2012, 12:42 AM
inter just will not work as part of the classic league, thats all! As good as this discussion is, it just won't work, most classic players do not want to play intermediate, let alone 2 or 3 rounds. As much as I respect the scheme, it really does not belong to the classic league and I think the voting so far reflects this. Bring back TNL, merge ONL, just dont add it to the classic league as we tried it before and it didnt work and I dont see it working if we try again.

Why don't we test it and see? TUS isn't a 100% serious league, so who cares if it doesn't get played much and has to be removed after a season or two, there is lots of room to try things out. All we have to do is replace shopper with inter, I'm sure inter can exceed that level of activity.

Quote from: Dub-c on April 25, 2012, 10:42 PM
Tus classic needs less schemes. Not more.

Intermediate has never been a consistent part of leagues with lots of people playing it. Its a specialist scheme. In the overall community there is few that are really good at it. The scheme will have a HUGE advantage to the few that are good at it compared to the community. Added the scheme will screw up the whole league dynamic in my opinion.

We do have too many schemes, which is why scheme classes would be a huge help. But for the time being, shoppa is hardly played and could easily be removed to make room for inter. To call it a specialist scheme in the same way the RR or SSing are specialist schemes is quite absurd though; inter contains most of the essence of the game, it's the height of default schemes, and default is what most people come to worms for.

Some people starting off having an advantage is no reason to keep it out of the league if it's a worthy scheme. I'll even avoid playing inter in clanners for a while if people want a more fair match. But most of NNNL won't bother coming over here, the majority of TUS players will be on equal footing.