Quote from: Aerox on May 29, 2016, 12:06 PM
Down mid? that's terrible. Dunno if you rope but going up from down mid to a far side takes about the same time than going up from a far side to the opposite far side, assuming a normal rope map. You can't just ignore momentum or have a discussion about roping without considering how roping works. Also having to knock a worm eliminates the handicap of starting from the top because it takes around 3 seconds off the timer.

"there's a high chance the 2nd player can't attack at all" - this is made up nonsense, can you elaborate, specially on the "high chance" part?

Sorry, there's a high chance (like 70%) that the 2nd player can't make full damage with bazooka. I could however gather you stats from games where the 2nd player teleported to either side and the "fail" percentage for him would be even higher. That's because in many maps it's easier to climb from the mid than from a side, in some maps the side climb is like a ttrr climb. It's a common tactic for (lame) players to start hiding at mid when they get a lead because they can reach most crates easily from there.

Yeah having to knock eliminates the handicap of starting from the top but at the same time it makes it even harder for the 2nd player to attack.

Quote from: Aerox on May 29, 2016, 12:06 PM
zook provides more variation (assuming target is in a hard hide), and when there's more variation there are more chances for the better player to come on top: there's many different ways to shoot, there's wind, there's an usual requirement to knock etc...

With 4 star bazooka the better player could get profit in a longer run.

@ANO, ropa

The problem with bazooka 1st for the 1st player only is that some maps have hides where it's nearly impossible to shoot with bazooka.. The 1st player has one turn lead from the start, though.

Quote from: Aerox on May 29, 2016, 10:37 AM
zook first is there to give the player going second a higher chance of avoiding full damage by taking a hard hide (which should be easy if we trust you when you say maps are harder now)

Removing this factor makes going first even safer (that's bad for the competitiveness of the scheme)

There's a high chance that a good roper makes a successful bazooka attack when he goes 1st. After that there's a high chance that the 2nd player can't attack at all. How's that favorable for the player who goes 2nd? You suggest that the 2nd player should hide in the deepest corner and hope for a hard crate for the opponent "to avoid full damage", then hope for an easy crate to be able to attack at all? As the 2nd player you have to be very lucky to get any advantage from the bazooka 1st rule.

btw, I discussed this topic with your friend Anubis and he said the same:

Quote from: Anubis on May 06, 2016, 12:20 PM
The changes made to W:A roper like CBA made bazooka first a significant disadvantage for the 2nd player.

Quote from: Ryan on May 29, 2016, 11:29 AM
If you allow the player going first the chance to use mine/grenade those stats would be worse, player one would have nearly 100% successful attack leaving player two 70hp behind with a chance of a harder crate.

Nah. The 2nd player can place his worm down mid. From there he should be able to attack at least with a mine/nade.

Let's fix Roper

The bazooka 1st rule (or mine/nade delay) originates from W2 Roper (no CBA) and I think it's stupid to have it in WA Roper. WA Roper is played with CBA rule so bazooka 1st gives an advantage to the player who starts 1st and makes the 1st turns more luck based than the following turns.

The 1st player gets usually easier bazooka turn because he starts from the top and hides at the bottom. Roper is played on harder maps these days so the 2nd player is very dependent on crate luck on his 1st turn. I would rather give the 1st player an easy 1st attack (with mine/nade) than leave the 2nd player completely dependent on crate luck.

For those who don't believe in the advantage bazooka 1st gives:

Spoiler! View

Bazooka turn success (successful attack - shot through wall / little damage to own worm too - fail)

dibz
Start 1st : 70% - 18% - 12% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 30% - 28% - 42% (50 games)

ZiPpO
Start 1st : 60% - 18% - 22% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 20% - 12% - 68% (50 games)

Lukz
Start 1st : 44% - 24% - 32% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 26% - 22% - 52% (50 games)

daiNa
Start 1st : 42% - 30% - 28% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 36% - 22% - 42% (50 games)

Combined
Start 1st : 54% - 23% - 24% (200 games)
Start 2nd: 28% - 21% - 51% (200 games)

Games where the opponent failed to hide or where the 2nd player started on top were excluded.

If you start 2nd and tele on top, you give the 1st player an easy zooka attack while your chance is only like 60-70% (if you are dibz or ZiPpO).

That's not all W2 Roper has more powerful bazooka (4 stars instead of 3) and I think it should be introduced in WA Roper for the following reasons:

- 'bazooka 1st' remains a thing as players are encouraged to go for a ~49 dmg bazooka shot instead of a mine/nade
- it discourages hiding on top because bazooka attack is easy on top
- easy crate turns become harder because players should try knock+bazooka instead of just dropping a mine. The better roper should be able to use bazooka more often.

Bazooka attacks depend on crate luck and wind too but overall I think the scheme would be more balanced this way.

Before: 1st player makes 44 dmg with bazooka while the 2nd player may not be able to attack at all
After: 1st player makes 49 dmg with bazooka while the 2nd player may have to resort to mine/nade

Quote from: style on May 28, 2016, 10:17 PM
Lol or vesuvio could put his efforts into contacting me instead of not pointing out an exact meeting.

I think u should come up with a proposition since u are never in AG and u show up here only once in a while. You got to the 2nd round only because Spoon_head was away too and I didn't want to give a straight final spot to vesuvio.

vesu is muted at the moment btw so he cannot reply here. style tell us some dates when u will check AG and I will inform vesu or something?

[Bry4N`TaG] can host me roper pls?
[Bry4N`TaG] or better rr
[Bry4N`TaG] havent much time
[Bry4N`TaG] in some minits have to go at university

After the game
[TdC`Senator] was it 62
[Bry4N`TaG] ye
[TdC`Senator] u hit roof at 62
[TdC`Senator] dunno if it changed to 63 after that before u touched finish/backwall
[Bry4N`TaG] in last turn no

You were sure about the time and in a hurry so I believed u and decided to check it afterwards. So we played 2 rematches for nothing

Actually I won this You did 63.06 two times in the 1st game (3rd replay, Hussar map). My time was 62.34. bl mate

Edit: changed the winner and removed the extra replays.

33:49

https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-200526/

Turn off the music from the options menu:


What do u mean by "lag"? I guess the current graphics settings don't work well with your computer. Try out different graphics renderer and/or vertical sync off (from advanced options).

Seems like vesuvio doesn't want in the final

I'll give one more week since vesu posted here earlier and he has been online almost every day unlike style.

Expecting a reply from both players. style could also check AG even once

you'd think that you can't fail that last shot..

[cfcdaiNa] all imposible cr8s for me
[Komito] Yeah, you can't beat luck

I counted 9 hard/impossible crates for Macabet and 11 for daiNa (two times daiNa made Macabet's hard crate easy by hiding at the other side of the map). daiNa gifted her crate to Macabet two times and failed some not too hard attacks (also fell on her last turn when she had basically a chance for a draw). With a good performance she could have won this

Congrats Chelsea! I'll transfer the prize money asap.

This time we had 8 draws in 73 games, last time 3 draws in 47 games (2 of them happened because of mistakes). Again some of the draws happened because of mistakes at the end of the game. 1: Tried double kill with patsy although could have telecowed (1vs2) before using it, 2: killed both teams with a holy, 3: failed a pigeon, 4: could have killed all the worms by telecow+plop+pigeon (2vs3). It's also a matter of playing style. For example half of my last 10 games against daiNa with TUS scheme are draws.. It's the lack of SD weaps that causes draws, having more of holys, bows, miniguns, sheep launchers etc doesn't help.

Quote from: Hussar on May 21, 2016, 07:41 PM
Just watch this final. Was kinda sure of win :c

Yeah eq was the only weap he could kill u from there. If u only had made eq cover with the girder (after Chelsea teleported to eq cover).. :p

vesu don't pick t17 then

Anyway why did u paste a conversation with Sbaffo in our game report?

Roper at best

Round time is set to 15 here, in tus scheme it's 10.