Quote from: Peja on June 04, 2016, 10:23 AM

Quote from: Senator on June 04, 2016, 10:17 AM
I provided logs where Lukz asked me tus via PM, then refused to play against Sbaffo and then accepted tus against reN.

this complaint is only about sbaffo afaik. its funny you think the asbest case gives you the right to do this.

case 1: someone avoids any player who played more than 3 games on this league

case 2: someone gets asked to play, from 2 players, with the roughly the same skill, at about the same time and choses to play the one he does not dislike.

sorry bro, cant see the connection

Outsiders are not allowed to provide logs and bust an avoider or wtf? Lukz asked for tus via PM unlike u claimed.

I guess u didn't see this:

Quote from: Sbaffo on May 30, 2016, 02:04 PM
This was his answer:

Quote from: MonkeyIsland on May 30, 2016, 12:00 PM
Hi,

You should post it on leagues complaint board. If moderators agree, they'll give you a free win which forces the other player to play that game with you.

Sbaffo and dibz didn't ask at the same time. Sbaffo asked first and then some minutes later dibz asked. Maybe Lukz accepted tus against dibz because dibz was reachable on the season standings unlike Sbaffo? Who knows and the reason is irrelevant.

I provided logs where Lukz asked me tus via PM, then refused to play against Sbaffo and then accepted tus against reN.

Quote from: Peja on June 04, 2016, 09:41 AM
if its true, you need to void this game because lukz was never looking for tus 

Do I need to quote myself again?

looking for tus = 1) "tus anyone" on the channel 2) ask tus via PM  3) accept tus against a player right after ignoring other player

Lukz asked tus via PM and also accepted tus right after ignoring Sbaffo. Not to mention he admitted avoiding.

Quote from: Peja on June 04, 2016, 09:41 AMjokes aside, the last sentence concerns me. one thing has always been certain about this league: "we dont want free wins". now we have a mod saying the opposite, do you have backup from the admin on this?

I  guess

Quote from: MonkeyIsland on April 19, 2016, 03:51 PM

Quote from: barman on April 19, 2016, 03:51 PM
You can report a free win of your pick, but Asbest is still allowed to change his mind and play the game if he wants. In case you lose, winners will be switched.

This ^

Other people should act same way as Senator. Provide logs and screenshots of AG.

Quote from: Almog on June 04, 2016, 08:20 AM
2) You can check my games' logs with Sbaffo for similar 'insults'.

3) I couldn't pick up from this thread what avoiding is according to the mods, but I do know this: avoiding has to be when someone avoids more than one player. For example, I can see why Asbest is an avoider. 

4) What's the biggest purpose of this league, or any league for that matter? Some might say competition. But why we want competition? Because it's fun for us. In the end we play to have fun. Now lets say one *particular* player makes me uncomfortable, as Lukz was trying to say using his bad English, do I have to play with him only so I don't lose points to free wins? Does this make sense to you?

5) Did someone ask Lukz to see this thread and give a statement? OR are you actually expecting him to see it by himself?

6) Yesterday, before seeing this thread, Sbaffo asked me for tus and I told him directly and clearly that I will not play with him unless I have to (because he pissess me off). That makes me an avoider like Lukz. I wonder why he didn't report this btw. However - if I'm forced to play someone who pissess me off because of a stupid rule  - then you can expect rule abuse for many times people 'avoid' me. And after I do this , many more people will, and soon this league will become one of free games.

2) I just saw u complaining about Elite map when u had already started the game (= u accepted the map). "you're supposed to be an elitist" sounds like a reasonable response to me
3)

Quote from: Senator on May 30, 2016, 09:35 PM
avoiding is when u look for tus and refuse to play against certain player. It doesn't necessarily require "tus anyone" from the avoider. If u ask someone tus in PM, that's the same thing as u would write "tus anyone" on the channel. If someone asks u tus in PM and a moment later u accept tus with someone else, that may be considered avoiding (at least if it happens several times).

Quote from: Senator on May 30, 2016, 03:55 PM
Sbaffo and Lukz are both competing for the PO spots so they are not allowed to avoid certain players like that

4) As long as a player behaves according to the rules, you can't really avoid him because of your personal opinion. I'm not sure if exceptions are made here, though, like between tita and Kins who have a history
5) Lukz admitted avoiding in the logs so it was a clear case. I also said "unless Lukz provides logs where Sbaffo insulted him or something". Lukz did find this thread very soon.
6) Yeah Sbaffo told me about that. You have already played 8 games with Sbaffo this season, though, whereas Lukz had played only 2 games. I'm not sure if players should be forced to play all 14-15 games.

I don't see how you can "abuse" the rule. You need to have someone looking for tus and refusing to play against u and also sufficient evidence to back it up. Also, keep in mind that the avoider has always one week to play the game. Getting a free win reported against u shouldn't be a problem if u were not really avoiding.

Quote from: Hussar on June 03, 2016, 10:30 PM
I won 3 games, so what i am supposed to do now?

You need to play the 4th game. Round ratio works as a tiebreaker :p

This is banning pick mode so can't use Bo5 here..

Edit: Ops, Husk and I used two island maps for Hysteria and Elite. The Elite maps linked in the cup description are two island, though.

Yeah better keep a rule that makes the first-turn advantage bigger

dibz's (#1 in tus Roper lately) winning percentage when he goes

1st : 80% (100 games sample against good/average ropers)
2nd: 65% (100 games sample against good/average ropers)

It's the one turn lead that u have at start + easier bazooka turn.

The bazooka turns can affect the result this way (assuming the rest of the game goes perfectly):
Both players make similar damage or no damage -> 1st player wins
1st player makes no damage while 2nd player makes ~20 or full damage -> draw
1st player makes ~20 dmg while 2nd player makes full damage -> draw

The 1st player can lose his lead but not lose the game (unless he hits himself with bazooka or something else stupid).

Now look at dibz's numbers:
1st player makes full damage by 70% chance -> 1st player retains the lead
1st player makes no damage by 12% chance -> 1st player retains the lead unless 2nd player uses his 58% chance to make ~20 or full damage
1st player makes ~20 damage by 88% chance -> 1st player retains the lead unless 2nd player uses his 30% chance to make full damage

There's greater chance for losing the lead on first turns when bazooka first is on and not off. It's however more probable that the 1st player increases his lead instead.

Try to play it at the weekend then. The season ends on Sunday (noon).

Quote from: Peja on May 30, 2016, 04:09 PM

Quote from: Senator on May 30, 2016, 03:55 PM
There's a difference between playing with friends here and then and competing for the PO spots. Sbaffo and Lukz are both competing for the PO spots so they are not allowed to avoid certain players like that. I haven't talked much with Lukz but he still asked me tus. It's not like he just wanted to play tus with his buddies. For some reason he wanted to play tus against any player except Sbaffo.

could you please link me to the rules section telling about these differences, or show me any conversation with mods about a definition of avoiding? i asked when this rule got introduced, franz just said: "mods will look at each case". ropa was the only one trying to give a definition:
"What is proof is taking a picture of someone asking to TUS for half an hour and when you ask him to he ignores you / joins a different game of someone who asked afterwards etc..."

I don't think there's written definition of avoiding. As u quoted, avoiding is when u look for tus and refuse to play against certain player. It doesn't necessarily require "tus anyone" from the avoider. If u ask someone tus in PM, that's the same thing as u would write "tus anyone" on the channel. If someone asks u tus in PM and a moment later u accept tus with someone else, that may be considered avoiding (at least if it happens several times). Lukz wrote "me tus" on the channel so it was easy to see when he accepted tus with other player. But he admitted avoiding himself so it was a clear case anyway.

So "play whoever asks" as ropa said is basically the rule but I think it applies mainly to playoff contenders. Avoiding between PO contenders and noobs may not be punished. Also, if u have already played like 10 games against player X, u may not be punished for refusing to play against him and accepting tus against other player for a change. Common sense can be used here

Quote from: Peja on May 30, 2016, 03:40 PM
does this mean i am forced to play with everyone who spams my snoop ? this ruling is quite weird, lukz never asked to play in ag, he just agreed to play with dibz.
i never read any rule saying: once someone asks you to play a league game, you are forbidden to start a league game with someone else.

There's a difference between playing with friends here and then and competing for the PO spots. Sbaffo and Lukz are both competing for the PO spots so they are not allowed to avoid certain players like that. I haven't talked much with Lukz but he still asked me tus. It's not like he just wanted to play tus with his buddies. For some reason he wanted to play tus against any player except Sbaffo.

If u noticed there was a 6 mins gap between the first and second "tus?" Sbaffo started flooding because Lukz ignored him.

As I said, I don't get why he avoided Sbaffo but it's a fact that he did. Unless Lukz provides logs where Sbaffo insulted him or something, Sbaffo is entitled to a free win.

Lukz to me:
(Channel) 29/05/2016 22:04:49 wLukz: more? 0:
(Channel) 29/05/2016 22:04:55 wLukz: look like no clanners xD

(User) 29/05/2016 22:07:28 Sbaffo`: hello? tus? still avoiding me?
(User) 29/05/2016 22:08:29 Sbaffo`: you could play tus with me instead of asking senator for 2 more
(Channel) 29/05/2016 22:10:44 wLukz: i didn't like play vs u

AG channel:
(Channel) 29/05/2016 22:18:41 reN`s: tus ne1?
(Channel) 29/05/2016 22:18:47 wLukz: oye ren
(Action) 29/05/2016 22:19:13 wLukz: is hosting a game: tus (ren cancelled the match so Lukz played 2 more against me instead)

Quote(Channel) 29/05/2016 22:10:44 wLukz: i didn't like play vs u

Didn't see anything in the previous game chats that would justify avoiding (I've complained about mid/top hiding to Lukz too). Dunno why he wants to avoid Sbaffo but still plays vs dibz, though

Free win approved anyway. Lukz has one week to play the game if he wants (or 5 days coz the season is ending).

Quote from: Ryan on May 29, 2016, 02:36 PM
Also, 4 star bazooka alone gives player 1 a bigger advantage especially when they get a successful attack first turn.

With bazooka first player 1 has like 70% and player 2 30% chance to hit properly (dibz's numbers). Without bazooka first the percentages would be like 90% for player 1 and 80% for player 2 (these numbers are out of my head). If u go 2nd, would u prefer bazooka first on/off? Player 1 may get to hit u with 4 star bazooka while u can hit him just with a mine but that's a meaningless disadvantage compared to the current disadvantage.

Bazooka 1st would be just fine if it was somewhat equal for both players but it isn't. It makes it even worse for the 2nd player who is already one turn behind from the start. Ofc if you are a bad/average roper you can turn the handicap around by messing up the bazooka turn.

Quote from: darKz on May 29, 2016, 03:15 PM

Quote from: Ryan on May 29, 2016, 02:36 PM
I don't understand why it is lame to not hide if I gain a lead.
Why should I allow the opponent the chance to beat me if the aim is to win?

It's not lame. People just make up excuses when they lose and try to shift the blame on the scheme or the rules, that's all.

It depends how u gained the lead. Let's say u get 2 easy crates while the opponent gets 2 very hard/impossible crates. Then u hide at mid/top to make your further crates easy for u. In other words u don't let crate luck balance and u win by luck.

Quote from: Aerox on May 29, 2016, 12:06 PM
Down mid? that's terrible. Dunno if you rope but going up from down mid to a far side takes about the same time than going up from a far side to the opposite far side, assuming a normal rope map. You can't just ignore momentum or have a discussion about roping without considering how roping works. Also having to knock a worm eliminates the handicap of starting from the top because it takes around 3 seconds off the timer.

"there's a high chance the 2nd player can't attack at all" - this is made up nonsense, can you elaborate, specially on the "high chance" part?

Sorry, there's a high chance (like 70%) that the 2nd player can't make full damage with bazooka. I could however gather you stats from games where the 2nd player teleported to either side and the "fail" percentage for him would be even higher. That's because in many maps it's easier to climb from the mid than from a side, in some maps the side climb is like a ttrr climb. It's a common tactic for (lame) players to start hiding at mid when they get a lead because they can reach most crates easily from there.

Yeah having to knock eliminates the handicap of starting from the top but at the same time it makes it even harder for the 2nd player to attack.

Quote from: Aerox on May 29, 2016, 12:06 PM
zook provides more variation (assuming target is in a hard hide), and when there's more variation there are more chances for the better player to come on top: there's many different ways to shoot, there's wind, there's an usual requirement to knock etc...

With 4 star bazooka the better player could get profit in a longer run.

@ANO, ropa

The problem with bazooka 1st for the 1st player only is that some maps have hides where it's nearly impossible to shoot with bazooka.. The 1st player has one turn lead from the start, though.