The main point is that you can play 2vs2 even if your partner is not online.

We could combine these ideas: before you start searching a match you can select whether you want to play with your partner or with anybody.



This way we could have all players interested in 2v2 using this system. The only drawback is that complete pairs could refuse to play and still not get penalized (because it would be 2 words against 2 words). We could however ban those players from using the system if we detect such behavior.

This was just first test version of the system and we need some updates before people can really start using it

- teams to be balanced, not just randomized
- arranged matches to be saved on the website under "game logs" tab
- login to be moved on the same site with other stuff. When you log in, the site will reload itself and then you are able to click "Start searching"
  - you can still browse arranged matches without logging in (otherwise MI/D1 should log in to see game logs when they solve a complaint on the forum)

The website would then look like this



After these updates I'll ask MI to add that special rule for these matches (he already said it's ok) and then we'll see if people actually use the system

Quote from: Tomi on May 20, 2014, 09:46 AM
Long-long time ago he made an API for snoopers. With that you can log in with your snooper and your tus account. This website uses that too, coz we thought people are too lazy to register a new account there, so they can use tus account there

The main reason is to prevent people from using the system as someone else. MI will namely add a special rule that affects those who want to play 2v2 games with this system (penalty points for the player who refuses/is not able to play). If you could register a new account there then you could steal some player's identity and arrange penalty points for him. Remember this system is only to arrange TUS singles league 2v2 games.

Haven't seen Naty or Zobozdravnik2 on AG... I even sent a private message about the matches but no answer. I wonder if they are going to play at all.

Quote from: Tomi on May 10, 2014, 10:31 AM
So should the other website work only for TUS users? It's an interesting question, but may be ok if you consider that you won't have to care about banned people take part in the league.

Yes, I think TUS singles league may be best for 2v2 games after all. No new 2v2 league table for now. Only players with TUS account could use the system. 

I think it could be worth coding a system to arrange 2v2 games for TUS singles league. According to poll we have now at least 32 players willing to play ranked 2v2 non-clan matches. Players love league tables and I don't see people would play much if the matches were just funners.

I can name several types of users
- Players who don't play much 1v1 or don't care about the singles ranking that much could play some competitive 2v2 besides clanners (people take the match more seriously when it's ranked)
- Low skilled players who would have a better chance to win when the match is more balanced. Some players might even reach the playoffs by gambling (you may be lucky or unlucky with the match-up).
- Pro players who like the challenge of more even 2v2 matches and think they can still reach the playoffs. Why play 1v1 if you can reach the playoffs as well by playing 2v2 that is more funny?

I suggest these steps

1. Tomi codes a system to arrange randomized and "balanced" 2v2 games. "Find 2v2" button would be on different website and in Great Snooper as well.
- Players can use the system only when logged in with TUS account and the system saves game logs on the website for possible complaints (if someone refuses to play the match)
   - game log would look like this: #1 Player1 & Player2 vs Player3 & Player4 10.5.2014 12.05
2. If the system is fine to MonkeyIsland, he could add a special rule (penalty points for not agreeing to play) that applies only to matches arranged via Tomi's system. So players who want to play 2v2 games this way agree this special rule and its possible consequences.

Opposite thoughts?

Quote from: KoreanRedDragon on May 08, 2014, 11:37 AM
...

There is some team play element in worms (not much, though) so 2v2 rating could indicate your team play ability

But you are right, individual 2v2 (or team game) rating doesn't make much sense. It's just for some fools who think they have achieved something when they get a high rating.

We could have 1v1 playoffs at the end of the season to see who really is the best. To qualify to the playoffs, you would just have to play 2v2 games instead of 1v1. Does it make any sense?

Or we could stay in the current system of TUS singles league with 2v2 possibility. We just don't see many 2v2 games because
1. Success is dependent on your partner also and most people are not willing to risk their singles rating playing 2v2
2. Having two pairs of friends looking for a 2v2 match is a rare situation. Having 4 random players coming to an agreement of a 2v2 match is just impossible.

Your idea of IRC bot with some added rules could solve the problem 2. It wouldn't require much work from MonkeyIsland either. We should just get logs from the bot as evidence of the match. Otherwise we may end up having 3 players lying one player (who they hate) didn't agree to play. With Tomi's Great Snooper and its TUS login feature we could prevent people from stealing others' identity.

Quote from: KoreanRedDragon on May 08, 2014, 05:07 AM
What's the point of having a team league if at the end of each season, you have a single player at the top of the standings, not a team? I feel all that would do is call for speculation and investigation as to why that particular player ended up #1 and not someone else ("He got randomly paired with Mablak and Random00 in 50% of his games, that vile cheater!") rather than stand to bring any sort of prestige, and hence motivation for the future, to the winner.

Well, I don't see this would be any bigger problem than with TUS singles. In singles league you can avoid certain players and look for a good match-up to get a better ranking. We might see a player ranked #1 with no matches against players ranked #2 or #3. Can you call such player the best then?

We see players ranked individually in many other team games (Counter-Strike GO, Heroes of Newerth to name a few). Clan league is kind of old thing. Even in tennis players have individual doubles ranking. It works in other games so why not in worms?

QuoteAs a player, you'd have little to no control over who you partners are and would end up having to try and game the system (queue for matches together at just the right times) to get to the top with your preferred team mate, again ridding the standings at the end of the season of any real meaning and prestige.

You can't really game the system. Even if you look for a match always the same time with your friend(s), you might still end up in different matches or playing against each other. We could also have limits for playing only X number of games with same partner and/or against same opponents just like in TUS singles.

QuoteIf the whole point is to simply find games for people who like to play 2v2 but have trouble organising clanners/funners, I imagine a much simpler implementation (more than likely via Tomi's snooper or a simple IRC bot) would do the trick just fine. The way I see it, there's really no real need for an entire league, here on TUS or elsewhere, unless the primary concern is to find the best player/team at X, where X is something that isn't covered by a different league or competition...

We need a league table because otherwise the matches would be just funners. We are finding the best player (not absolute) at 2v2. Now we have league tables to find the best player in 1v1 and the best clan. I would be ok with having shared league table for 1v1 and 2v2 matches. We would just then have different rules for 1v1 and 2v2 so the matches wouldn't be really comparable (in 1v1 you could select your opponent but not in 2v2). I don't see how this could work with Tomi's snooper or a simple IRC bot. We need a system to arrange random matches and penalty points for not agreeing to play. Otherwise we would have no matches because players would look just for a perfect match-up.

Murder Click (ArseGotia & Senator) beat Ae Team (dibz & Sbaffo) : Team17 (our pick)

Of course we would rather implement the system on TUS sites. MonkeyIsland should either give Tomi access to code TUS sites or code the system himself. I'm not sure if he is willing to do either.. Maybe we should have another vote like "Do you want to play this kind of 2v2 league on TUS sites?" to put some pressure on MI OR we can test the new league on other website at least a couple of seasons to see how it works in practice. I'm not a fan of new league site either but it looks like the only way to get something happen.

Quote from: Aerox on May 06, 2014, 06:43 PM
With fixed teams, it's just a simplified clan league. It doesn't really add much.

I have kind of answered to this already but I'll do it again.

With this new system, you can play 2v2 whenever there is 4 players online (no matter from which clan) = more games
With this new system, also players outside clans can take part = more games
With this new system, matches are balanced (clan matches can be quite unbalanced -> only top clans survive and bad clans die -> we have a group of players who would like to play 2v2 if there was a way)

So I wouldn't say "it doesn't add much". Because of inactivity, we need new systems like this.

Quote from: Aerox on May 06, 2014, 06:43 PM
...

You can play 2v2 matches for TUS singles ranking. Back then people met their friend on AG and looked for a 2v2 opponent. So it was basically two friends against two friends. This new league would be different: random pair against random pair. You can't arrange such matches without a system. Like I said:

QuoteDifferences to TUS singles 2v2
- Own league table for 2v2 ranking -> no risk of losing 1v1 points
- You can't select your partner and opponents (the system appoints them to you) -> no avoiding
- To find a match you just click a button on the website and wait -> no desperate "2v2 anyone?" on #AG

Quote from: DarkOne on May 05, 2014, 01:33 PM
If you haven't already, you should have a chat with avirex he will be delighted

Yeah I have suggested him this system. The problem was to get it coded but now we have Tomi to do that. We just need some guarantee that it's worth it.

If avirex's 2v2 league managed to attract 32 players, this should do a little better. I'm expecting at least 40-50 "yes" votes. We have indeed got some votes outside avirex's league.

What amazes me is that some people from avirex's 2v2 league have not voted "yes" (although they have visited this topic). Do they really think avirex's system works better? If so, I would like to hear some arguments.

My concern was if people are willing to play this league outside TUS. That may be the issue. Or is the case really that people don't play at all rather than play with some new guys (in case there is no clanner available)? If there are single players from clans online, with this system they could have a 2v2 match without clan tags.

Anyway, there is still plenty of time to vote and not everyone from avirex's 2v2 league have visited this topic yet. I'm expecting a lot more "yes" votes

Who are these Naty and Zobozdravnik2 ? They have both registered at TUS 2.5.2014. Looks like fake accounts.

If there is enough support, we will start a new 2v2 league on a separate website. Tomi will do the coding.

Why? We could have more 2v2 games than currently with TUS singles 2v2 and clanners
How? Random pairs between the players who are online (new pairs every time)

Shortly
- Click a button on the website to find a 2v2 match
- You see your partner and opponents when a match is found
- You have to play the match or you get penalty points (IF the other 3 players report you didn't agree to play)
- Both pairs pick their own scheme
- You gain points for your own 2v2 ranking

Differences to TUS singles 2v2
- Own league table for 2v2 ranking -> no risk of losing 1v1 points
- You can't select your partner and opponents (the system appoints them to you) -> no avoiding
- To find a match you just click a button on the website and wait -> no desperate "2v2 anyone?" on #AG

More details
- As soon as 4 players have clicked the button on the website, the system
  - balances the pairs based on players' overall points: 1. & 4. versus 2. & 3.
  - creates two game id's for reporting. You see the game id's at pending games
  - opens a window on your screen with all relevant information (the pairs, scheme pick order)
- On the game id site you see
   - the pairs
   - scheme pick order
   - a form for reporting
- Reporting options:
   - Winner (select pair 1 or 2 from the list)
     - Scheme
   - No-show (select a player from the list)
     - If some of the players reports a no-show, the other players can go to click "confirm". If confirmed, the reported player loses some points (-50, for example). If there is no confirmation from two other players in 24h, the game id will disappear automatically.

Point calculation
- Same as TUS singles (2v2), example: (1100+900)/2 versus (1200+750)/2

Everything else is just like in TUS.

Further development
- The system could be set to make more even matches (=more waiting)
- "Find a 2v2 match" button could be added to Great Snooper as well
- If the new league is popular, we might have similar league on TUS sites some day

Please give your vote and feel free to comment! Any idea is appreciated.