Quote from: Komito on March 14, 2015, 04:29 AM
No avi man, I don't think 20 minutes is too long... 20 minutes is nothing...

LoL, and WoW, and many other games online, can spend waaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer per match, per raid, etc.

WA games are very short.

I feel the other way, if games are too short, they aren't much fun, I am not trying to be annoying about this, it's how I feel.

that games arent good examples, WoW and LoL had a different metagame with more variats and other rithm, fight games probaly just take 5min or 15 if was bo5, i am speaking about WA, more that 20 min for just get a crate, rope and atack every turn is not fun, and this is worst if you are just throwing nades or zooks of one side at other

and please dont speak of variants, strategy or tactics in roper, wxw, hyst m t17, etc i am not noob

Lukz, the only thing left is for us to agree to disagree, personally speaking I would prefer even longer games, anyway, back to the original topic.

remove /ts, please

haha, i preffer speak about schemes in general, ur /ts topic just involve 3 or 4 players xD

Quote from: Lukz on March 14, 2015, 05:31 AM
haha, i preffer speak about schemes in general, ur /ts topic just involve 3 or 4 players xD

3 or 4 players? I think you need to re-read the thread.

And the thread has title "Re: Experimental season result - bng".

I would recommend opening a new thread if you wish you speak about other schemes.

I like how the people who historically complained about people debating schemes in a forum are the ones now debating schemes in a forum.

aaah, late bloomers.

too bad you're just going around and around in circles and refuse to see things for what they actually are: the staff here goes with whatever flavour of the month (they will now undergo your changes for the sake of all those paragraphs). However, the problem ain't that. The problem is that when you two get bored, other equally simple minded minions will get it changed back to something else.

Reason for this is that there is no one in the staff with enough credentials to make his own decisions regarding the scheme. What's so hard to understand? A scheme that requires optional fair play will never cut it amongst eastern europeans. It's like hosting a Sumo world cup in Philipinas.

Nrbng was already a thing in FB. The problem was b2b and all that bullshit that refused to understand what was going to happen, and insisted in focusing on how much fun they had counting numbers.

And now it's happened. And tides have turned. And I can't help it but cringe at the sight of this severe lack of perspective.

i always find avi brings the most logic to these debates and brilliant summaries.

we are just going to go round and round in circles and people are making points which are good but we need some actions. At work in meetings we have a lot of debates but then we make decisions and actions and usually it involves doing some research to justify those actions.

My suggested actions after this thread.

1) remove ts from bng rules.

Although Lukz is saying that only 3-4 players want this removed, so far only Chelsea and someone from che have argued for ts. There is more evidence for the removal of ts from bng from the community and i did some research and presented the games i played where my opponents were happy to play classic bng rules with no ts. Based on this action, Komo would probably be happy to go and find all the bngs since season whatever (when the experimental changes) came into play and watch those bng games and see how many used ts, or how many players have requested ts. Maybe since i got active again i've reintroduced classic bng into tus picks, who knows, but i think the majority want ts out of classic bng and this can be backed up by people posting in this thread as its more than 3-4 players and recent tus bng matches over the past couple of seasons.

2) investigate grider for protection rule

This rule was introduced due to the apparent number of complaints around using a grider, i understand the rule does make less complaints and there are arguments for destroying a grider but in my opinion and a few other bngers its not a great rule. However some players like it and there isn't such a clear case of removing this rule from classic tus bng rules. Ropa brings up a valid point of asking how many bng complaints involved a grider. Therefore why don't we set an action for ropa to research how many bng complaints involved a grider and based on this statistics we can look at next steps to see if we should reconsider this rule? I personally think the number of complaints will be low and this is something that historically mods can usually deal with seeing if the grider was being used to bank a nade. Personally if you use a grider to bounce a grenade of then i see it as legal even if that grider does provide some protection, its just a cheap tactic but not a tactic that breaks the rules.

3) Deciding scheme variations

A separate thread should be created with this thread as a reference where we decide the pros and cons of allowing a league system where certain scheme variations can legally be picked by all players in tus and counted as a league game regardless of players agreeing to the scheme variation. We could go through each scheme, based off the research that KRD did some months ago and decide as a community, even vote on the different scheme variations if we'll legally accept them as a classic game. For example we could go through and list all the difference versions of t17 that we are happy to be accepted, or the difference versions of bng that we are happy to be accepted, but this is a huge task. I for one would not vote in nrbng as an acceptable scheme for bng classic, and MI may not be happy to accept t17 with unlimited griders as a classic version of t17. This is because players have opinions about how much these scheme variations effect the dynamic of the game, and some changes can have a big impact on the style and tactics involved in that scheme. But we should talk about that in another thread and first decide as a community if we are happy for the pick debate to be accepted before we even decide what versions of schemes will be allowed.

nice post chicken, I especially found the very first part very insightful haha

that's the beauty about 'the picker picking the variation' because then we don't have to debate about the girder rule, or the t17 rules, or any other small rule...  the picker picks.. period

all though, obviously we would have to come up with a detailed list of scheme variations that are acceptable... maybe just because it was my idea, I think so highly of it.. but I really believe that it will cause less drama, less debate, less complaints... and ultimately make more people happy...   by this time, we all know there is never going to be a scheme that makes everyone happy... so why do we continue to search for it?? its not there!!! just let the picker pick, and hopefully everyone can enjoy it, and deal with it.

Komo: what don't you get man?? lol you do this a lot.. im not sure if you have trouble reading, or just don't bother to read clearly..  I said to you that a lot of scheme are too long, and if the best player in bng (yes im talking about you) takes 20 minutes on average to finish a game, then the average player would take much longer... don't you get that??   and what about 17? that's always roughly 45 minutes.. I agree with Lukz, most schemes are too long. but I also agree with one thing you said komo, if the person likes the scheme, he wont feel like its too long.. because luks thinks roper is too long, and I don't agree with that... so I don't think changing the lengths of schemes will be a good outcome..

ropa: yes, everyone is late bloomers, simple minded minions, with severe lack of perspectives... your a natural born genius, and if more people would listen to your wise words we would all be much better off *rolls eyes*

Quote from: avirex on March 14, 2015, 01:07 PMI said to you that a lot of scheme are too long, and if the best player in bng (yes im talking about you) takes 20 minutes on average to finish a game, then the average player would take much longer... don't you get that??

So what, people like me and Chicken23 must suffer because other people don't enjoy BnG? Our fun must be cut short for the sake of some others? I don't enjoy playing TTRR, I don't enjoy playing T17, I don't enjoy playing WxW, Shoppa or Elite, but I happily sit by and watch them, you know why? Because I enjoy being in the company of my clanmates and friends, I enjoy showing support to my clan mates, that's what makes the Clanning experience worthwhile, I feel bad for those people whose clanmate will quit the game when they die and not even stay to support them.

avi, we've got along quite fine recently, please don't go back to that old way of arguing over petty things, obviously I can read, obviously I understand what you said, for me 20-40 minutes isn't too long, i'll sit and play Borderlands 2 for like, 12 hours straight, that's long...

The issue really is not time here, the issue is people being able to tolerate the things that others enjoy, the issue is people being selfish.

Quote from: avirex on March 14, 2015, 01:07 PMbut I also agree with one thing you said komo, if the person likes the scheme, he wont feel like its too long.. because luks thinks roper is too long, and I don't agree with that... so I don't think changing the lengths of schemes will be a good outcome..

So what, you sort of insult me by saying "im not sure if you have trouble reading" and "or just don't bother to read clearly", then immediately kind of agree with me afterwards?

As for Chicken23s post:

1) I fully support this, and I will happily spend my own time going over previously played games, and doing whatever else it takes to rid BnG of /ts

2) Right now I am happy with any girder rule, it doesn't affect how I enjoy BnG weirdly enough...

3) I would rather have 1 scheme and stick to it.

Quote from: Komito on March 14, 2015, 05:31 PM

avi, we've got along quite fine recently, please don't go back to that old way of arguing over petty things, obviously I can read, obviously I understand what you said, for me 20-40 minutes isn't too long, i'll sit and play Borderlands 2 for like, 12 hours straight, that's long...

I have learned that W:A players are typically not traditional gamers, they often just play W:A so any relation to other games is pointless. Yes, 20-40 Minutes per game is a joke. But in W:A perspective 20-40 minutes per game is actually long.

Sorry for off-topic. 

Quote from: Anubis on March 14, 2015, 05:52 PM

Quote from: Komito on March 14, 2015, 05:31 PM

avi, we've got along quite fine recently, please don't go back to that old way of arguing over petty things, obviously I can read, obviously I understand what you said, for me 20-40 minutes isn't too long, i'll sit and play Borderlands 2 for like, 12 hours straight, that's long...

I have learned that W:A players are typically not traditional gamers, they often just play W:A so any relation to other games is pointless. Yes, 20-40 Minutes per game is a joke. But in W:A perspective 20-40 minutes per game is actually long.

Sorry for off-topic. 

but

No, I totally disagree with that, I have known a lot of WA gamers who are hardcore gamers, and play other games too, even you, addicted to LoL...

Go to YouTube, and watch the highest rated "Worms Armageddon" videos, which are people who have their own YT gaming channel, who attract many viewers, their games show an average game of WA for a complete noob, and guess what, most of those games are 20-40 minutes long...

So please don't tell me 20-40 minutes is long, when it isn't, the type of game, or type of gamer, is irrelevant to perspective, if someone enjoys something, they will play it for however long it takes, that's the truth...

whos arguing with you komo?


just letting you know its like talking to a brick wall with you... everyone here knows it, im certainly not the first one to tell you that...

and of course we been getting along, why will that change? I told you about my extreme case of nut sack itch the other night in AG, and you comforted me

Quote from: avirex on March 14, 2015, 06:24 PMjust letting you know its like talking to a brick wall with you... everyone here knows it, im certainly not the first one to tell you that...

Why is that? Because I defend my opinion? What exactly is wrong with what I am saying, am I doing something morally wrong, am I saying things that are plain outright wrong? Am I insulting anyone?

I feel like I am speaking freely with an open mind, open to debate, the funny thing is, I could say the same thing about you, and ropa, and lukz, and several other people, because we are all doing the same thing, repeating information in different words to mean the same thing, sticking by our opinions, if anything it's a sign of integrity, someone who sticks by what they believe in.

I don't agree with your opinion about "picking schemes", you won't change your mind, you keep saying the same thing, lukz thinks schemes are too long, I don't think they are, he keeps saying the same thing, I don't think it's like talking to a brick wall at all, although I could say that because it's the same thing as I am doing...

I've put a lot of effort into spectating games, talking to other people about the rules, I think I deserve a bit more respect for actually trying to do something good here... I ain't doing anything wrong man...

what about inter in classic? has it also been removed from Classic cuz too long or sth? ONL players are perfectly fine with how long it takes, they even mostly prefer it best of 5 xd

Quote from: Korydex on March 14, 2015, 07:39 PM
what about inter in classic? has it also been removed from Classic cuz too long or sth? ONL players are perfectly fine with how long it takes, they even mostly prefer it best of 5 xd

this should go into the scheme thread but a really good point and brings it back to the argument that if you enjoy the scheme you won't care how long it takes.

I used to enjoy br but sometimes they would take over an hour, i also have really enjoyed inter as a competitive league scheme in nnnl and cwt. But there is a point of finding the balance for it in classic league.

with how long it takes to find an actual league game surely you rather not be done in 20 minutes?