Quote from: TheKomodo on July 08, 2018, 05:15 PM
Skunk why don't you at least check the tus scheme before making accusations.

I am on your side but the fact you don't even wanna check the scheme first is ignorant.

What accusations? I just looked at the scheme and unless I overlooked something, it is as I said - played the same as every other Mole except there's manual starting placement as opposed to random.

Ostensibly the only real difference between a funner mole and a ranked mole is gonna be the starting placement. My guess was correct.

The TUS scheme has superweapons disabled, limited girder range (vs unlimited), slow water rise, regular banana (vs. gold powered), and manual placement. You still have the hilariously overpowered clusters, airstrike, baseball bat, firepunch, dragonball, shotgun, etc. There's lots of opportunity to darkside or block until you have good weapons, so the luck element isn't that huge.

Just like any scheme on WA not all the top players play it on TUS. Not that I count myself among the top mole players (far from it). FMA is probably better than Zalo and he's played like 6 tus games. You probably wouldn't recognize that name because he is a serial-aliaser. Every game he changes his name and country flag.

After playing however many thousand Worms games I don't care about winning anymore. I often root for the other guy to win because he probably cares more. Games with zero luck factor are what I find boring. Those games often just reward whoever plays the safest and most boringly -- dAiNa dominated the league at one time but her roping was like watching paint dry. To each their own I guess. But I do find Team 17 pretty boring as well.

Not very coherent point but I feel that if you wish to continue ripping on mole shopper you should put your skills to the test first.

What lol...

I find that somewhat contradicting j0e considering every Roper we've ever played we've both taken it seriously, yeah we get carried away sometimes but generally YOU rope "safe and boring" as well... I mean yeah the scheme is somewhat lucky though lol.

I find watching daina equally as entertaining as watching saltyk9 rope, they have different styles, but they are both efficient/fast, I also like to pay attention to recovery time also, how fast they can fix mistakes, they are both pretty good. But yeah, we like different things so that's ok, i'm just surprised you thought watching daina rope is boring, quite shocked really lol.

@skunk - That's what I mean about ignorant, everything j0e mentioned about the Mole Shopper schemes which you didn't even realize, or didn't find important enough to mention, hence, ignorant, nothing personal mate lol

Quote from: j0e on July 08, 2018, 05:38 PM
The TUS scheme has superweapons disabled, limited girder range (vs unlimited), slow water rise, regular banana (vs. gold powered), and random placement. Not sure if it's played with manual placement in leagues since I've never played mole for tus. You still have the hilariously overpowered clusters, airstrike, baseball bat, firepunch, dragonball, shotgun, etc. There's lots of opportunity to darkside or block until you have good weapons, so the luck element isn't that huge.

Just like any scheme on WA not all the top players play it on TUS. Not that I count myself among the top mole players (far from it). FMA is probably better than Zalo and he's played like 6 tus games. You probably wouldn't recognize that name because he is a serial-aliaser. Every game he changes his name and country flag.

After playing however many thousand Worms games I don't care about winning anymore. I often root for the other guy to win because he probably cares more. Games with zero luck factor are what I find boring. Those games often just reward whoever plays the safest and most boringly -- dAiNa dominated the league at one time but her roping was like watching paint dry. To each their own I guess. But I do find Team 17 pretty boring as well.

Not very coherent point but I feel that if you wish to continue ripping on mole shopper you should put your skills to the test first.

I only briefly looked at the page for Mole so I clearly missed a lot of differences. TBH I was only thinking of starting inventory and basic settings, not about stuff like gold banana (I pretend it doesn't exist) and whatnot. I couldda swore that it said something about placing worms in holes to start. As far as the other differences, they don't really change my estimation of the scheme, and IMO those changes reflect how the regular scheme should be played anyway. It also still isn't the most strategic/tactical scheme there is by a long shot, which is ultimately the only point I care about here. There's very few schemes in W:A that have a zero luck factor, but generally speaking I enjoy playing schemes with less luck involved as opposed to more luck involved because they are more of a test of who is playing the best at the moment and/or who is generally better. If I just want a 6 player funner match I don't really care what we play, but if I am playing someone 1-on-1 I definitely care about what we play because I don't want to invest time and mental energy into trying to win a game only to be screwed over by random, unpredictable luck. I do care about winning, and I play to win, and losing due to random crate luck is lame AF but a part of the game sometimes. If I didn't care about winning I probably wouldn't play Worms at all because this game is all skill + strategy. I'd play something else. Winning feels better than losing, and while winning isn't a requirement for having fun, it definitely makes the experience more fun, at least in my personal opinion. My personal skills when it comes to Mole are irrelevant to the point at hand. I don't need to be a director to critique a film, nor do I need to be a chef to critique a dish. This isn't about me. 

Quote from: skunk3 on July 08, 2018, 04:47 PM

Quote from: j0e on July 08, 2018, 06:50 AM
If mole is so luck-based, why don't you accept Zalo's challenge Skunk? Instead of playing 20 games, just play until you win. Should just be a game or two, right?

Because I'd rather spend my time available for gaming doing something fun rather than having a pissing contest playing a scheme that I don't really enjoy due to random luck. That said, if I was in AG and nobody else had anything decent hosted and friends weren't online I wouldn't turn down a game. Besides, even if he won 2-3 games in a row vs. me that wouldn't prove his point that Mole is the most strategic/tactical scheme of all time. My issue is with that claim. To me, the scheme clearly is not. On top of that, if he is claiming that Mole is the most strategic scheme of all time he is by extension claiming himself to be the #1 best player because wouldn't it stand to reason that whoever dominates the most competitive/strategic non-rope-based scheme is therefore the best player? If Mole is more strategic and tactical than say, Intermediate or Elite, then wouldn't that dominant player also dominate those schemes as well? The reason why all of this sounds absurd is because his original premise is absurd. Mole is not the most strategic/tactical scheme there is just as I said, and it is also a highly luck-based scheme, just as I said. Clearly Zalo is quite good at Mole according the rankings but he has played over 2x more ranked games than ANYONE else, plus out of the 200+ players who have ranked Moles recorded in that list, roughly 5-10% of them are truly high-level players in my opinion, and most of them have very few ranked games recorded. Anyway, I'm not trying to make anyone angry here; I'm just trying to interject with a bit of rationality. To me, bragging about being the best Mole player is no different than claiming to be the best at T17. I am certain that if more skilled players decided to start playing a bunch of ranked mole (for whatever reason) the rankings would look radically different.

bulls*it ... you just want to spend your free time on baseless complaining, instead of proving anything.

By the way every single scheme has luck factor whether you realize it or not.

Luck, as in your genetics as a human, your ability to understand and improvise, plan and carry out.

And where you were born and how you were raised contributes to that, and that's completely random luck...

Do you have a family that can buy you a good keyboard for roping, were you raised in a place with opportunities to get a good job and buy good equipment?

There is so much more underneath the iceberg than you will ever realize


@Zalo, I find your commitment to Mole Shopper more impressive than your skills, because I personally agree with skunk, it's nowhere near as highly skilled as you think it is. And i'll always expect you to defend that, it's admirable haha!

Quote from: TheKomodo on July 08, 2018, 06:10 PM
@Zalo, I find your commitment to Mole Shopper more impressive than your skills, because I personally agree with skunk, it's nowhere near as highly skilled as you think it is. And i'll always expect you to defend that, it's admirable haha!

I have been constantly playing it for 5-6 hours every day since March 2013 and there is still some battlefield movements that I need to polish. I am ready for 100+ scenarios in the game, and I want to be ready for +150.

Anyone wants to earn 40$? way is open, just win in any of 5 games against me, and 40$ is yours.

Quote from: TheKomodo on July 08, 2018, 06:10 PM
By the way every single scheme has luck factor whether you realize it or not.

Luck, as in your genetics as a human, your ability to understand and improvise, plan and carry out.

And where you were born and how you were raised contributes to that, and that's completely random luck...

Do you have a family that can buy you a good keyboard for roping, were you raised in a place with opportunities to get a good job and buy good equipment?

There is so much more underneath the iceberg than you will ever realize


@Zalo, I find your commitment to Mole Shopper more impressive than your skills, because I personally agree with skunk, it's nowhere near as highly skilled as you think it is. And i'll always expect you to defend that, it's admirable haha!

That is going off of the deep end.


There are certain schemes that have no luck involved, like TTRR, Big RR, etc. Of course we could argue about people not having the exact same keyboards and whatnot but that's really reaching and pretty stupid. I could also argue that I can't play TTRR at 7 a.m. because of the light coming in through my window and reflecting on my screen. 

Quote from: Zalo on July 08, 2018, 06:18 PM
Anyone wants to earn 40$? way is open, just win in any of 5 games against me, and 40$ is yours.

A separate topic is needed for that.

Quote from: skunk3 on July 08, 2018, 06:19 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on July 08, 2018, 06:10 PM
By the way every single scheme has luck factor whether you realize it or not.

Luck, as in your genetics as a human, your ability to understand and improvise, plan and carry out.

And where you were born and how you were raised contributes to that, and that's completely random luck...

Do you have a family that can buy you a good keyboard for roping, were you raised in a place with opportunities to get a good job and buy good equipment?

There is so much more underneath the iceberg than you will ever realize


@Zalo, I find your commitment to Mole Shopper more impressive than your skills, because I personally agree with skunk, it's nowhere near as highly skilled as you think it is. And i'll always expect you to defend that, it's admirable haha!

That is going off of the deep end.


There are certain schemes that have no luck involved, like TTRR, Big RR, etc. Of course we could argue about people not having the exact same keyboards and whatnot but that's really reaching and pretty stupid. I could also argue that I can't play TTRR at 7 a.m. because of the light coming in through my window and reflecting on my screen.

Big RR/TTRR still has random wind.

Quote from: ZaLoAnyone wants to earn 40$? way is open, just win in any of 5 games against me, and 40$ is yours.

Quote from: Zalo on July 08, 2018, 06:18 PM
Anyone wants to earn 40$? way is open, just win in any of 5 games against me, and 40$ is yours.

That's the problem Zalo, pretty much nobody wants to...

You and I are alike, you for Mole Shopper, me for BnG, but there was better competition in BnG than Mole Shopper, it was a more popular scheme, although I never met anybody who took it as seriously/passionate as I did, the only person who ever sort of equalled me was barman, but he was a hardcore notcher and got his league stats through that method, and he came too late in the game so didn't have as good an opportunity as I did to get the stats that I got.

skunk is entirely right, you are alone in your passion on TUS, most of your games are noob bashing because pretty much nobody even takes Mole Shopper seriously except you, and I had the same problem in BnG, I lacked world class competition on a daily basis, there were some great players but they weren't active enough, I only got to play Random00 once, he was one of the best I ever played.

I can admit that my stats would probably not be as impressive if there were other people who took BnG as seriously as I did, and the same goes to you and Mole Shopper.

That's what skunk is trying to say.

Quote from: skunk3 on July 08, 2018, 06:19 PM
I could also argue that I can't play TTRR at 7 a.m. because of the light coming in through my window and reflecting on my screen. 

That's legit lol.

1 problem with Worms is lag, frames skipping etc, that's entirely luck unless you know what settings and hardware to use perfectly, but most people don't have access to that information, or they don't know how, or they can't buy new hardware etc.

You can play a 0% luck scheme, yes, but there will always be luck because even missing 0.02 of 1 turn can lose you a game, make you miss/fall/lose turn.

But, I get the point,

zalo can i get the challenge?  I need the moneys just give me 5 minutes more so I can read about rules in that scheme

I'd like to watch this. Kins taking zalo's money. Should be fun