can you show me a quote of kaleu saying cheating is cool?
if you are talking about this one: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/new-analog-keyboards-for-roping-37241/msg299995/#msg299995
He doesn't say cheating is cool, he says using this script doesnt give you much of an advantage. the fact tus is not dominated by script ropers despite the thing being around for several years kinda proves him right.

Guess I should share my own thoughts and impression of "faster rope taps" or "cheating" or whatever you may call it. Here in this thread only.

At a young age I saw fast rope taps as a goal one should achieve to become a pro. I did very well with speed back then, but suffered from pace concistency and angle accuracy. As a result, I was only a step ahead of amateurs, thus about 40% of solid TUS league players could beat me in rope schemes. Then I had a break for like 8 years.

When I came back to roping as an adult, I re-evaluated the role of fast tapping in the whole. Still being a cool thing for showing-off, I saw multiple taps not as effective as the flow consisting of a mix of flies and well-timed bounces, momentum. Building up my roping style ex novo, relying mostly on things mentioned above and not mainly cRazYY f4$t t4p$, I began to show better results than I could ever imagine. So yeah, to me a something that "just makes your rope taps faster" isn't a thing as long as players who use it don't go through map like on Deadcode's famous TA replays. And that's cool, that's fine... until I mention one tiny thing that makes unnaturally rapid taps a cheat in my opinion...

SAVES. Saves, boys. I mean, I lost many games throughout my WA career. Sometimes I played worse than my opponents, but sometimes it was just that ability to shoot the rope rapidly, that unnatural thing that allowed my opponents to save themselves from losing a turn, squeezing their tap into ridiculously minuscule part of the second and avoiding ceiling or wall bump, or floor slide enough to lose a turn. Everytime it happened in the game I was like "Damn it... again. He saved his turn yet again cos of that script/macro etc... That's just not fair to me".

So ye. I have pretty much nothing against stuff that makes you look faster. I know how to deal with that. But when it saves your turn that couldn't be saved under NORMAL conditions (you know what I mean by saying NORMAL)... that's too much. It's not only annoying, but offensive.

Either all players agree on using tools that help you do that, or all agree on NOT using that. No way it's becoming a personal choice IMO

Quote from: Peja on December 23, 2024, 01:57 PMcan you show me a quote of kaleu saying cheating is cool?

Yeah, you got me there. He doesn't say cheating is cool. He says 'cheating is not cheating' in his first sentence. That sounds lot better, my bad... (/s)

Quote from: Peja on December 23, 2024, 10:15 AMshouldn't something like this be handled in a more discrete way, like via a report button or just sending messages to mods?
let's just imagine Shtaket did not cheat. The damage to his reputation is already being done. Some people will always think of him as a cheater just because of this thread.
i dont mind going public after evidence is found but posting and discussing cheating accusations isnt healthy for the community in the long term, especially with a small player base like ours.     

I think it's better to report things like this publicly so more people know about it. After all, it IS a league that some people take seriously and many people don't want to play people who are potentially cheating.

It's actually sad in my opinion how little people seem to care about this and I don't mean sad as in "that's cringe" I mean sad as in disappointing, we used to be a community who came together to discover cheaters and actively shame/ban them. I've been accused of cheating many times, even on these forums, and all I do is defend myself, it didn't damage my character at all.

Even if Shtaket is innocent, or at the very least, there's no way to detect whatever that sudden onset of perfect double shot taps is... There's no real harm done, nobody has directly said he's cheating, we're asking IF HE IS cheating, there's a difference.

Meanwhile I want as many people as possible to know that my gut feeling is theres new software out there that can give top tier players an advantage. Every good roper knows that the fastest taps possible are not the do all end all of roping, but in the right hands they DO give an advantage, even if it accumulates to 1 or 2 seconds over an entire race, that's still 1 to 2 seconds of cheating, if it IS cheating. And I've seen many games won by mere seconds.

There is also a possibility that Shtaket, and others, have found a legit, undetectable way of getting these kinds of taps, if that's the case then fair play to them.

I myself have a foot pedal peripheral which can be used to hold down the arrows while tapping with both hands, it's pretty cool but I don't use it or practise with it because I personally think it's an unfair advantage in certain moments.

I also have a program which I documented in Discord, sharing this information with others that can make your mouse wheel fire off the rope giving you literally perfect scrolls and I only used it for a day and achieved this:


So yes, I am very curious about new ways people can achieve perfect taps because although some people may delusionally believe they don't give an advantage, I can most definitely assure you, all the little frames saved adds up and IS an advantage in all the roping schemes.

Long story short, for now we have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's legit until proven otherwise, it's not a witchhunt.

So, I have a question: So that module would be a cheat for using two or more spacebar on the wkRemapKeys ? By Steps

Quote from: Aladdin on December 23, 2024, 05:44 PMSo, I have a question: So that module would be a cheat for using two or more spacebar on the wkRemapKeys ? By Steps

Good question, I like talking about this.

Objectively, it is not currently defined as cheating and is generally accepted in the community widescale. There are a number of players who use this and it's fine.  It is not considered a cheat because you still have to manually release one key before activating the next, therefor it's not exploiting the game in any way. It's another learning curve to learn how to use 2 spacebars although it's definitely got it's advantages if you can spend the time learning it properly with good timing.

Subjectively, If you're asking me, I personally don't like it and wish nobody did it though wouldn't consider it "cheating" as it doesn't break any rule. It isn't deceiving anyone by giving them extra abilities not available to anyone else. I personally find it less impressive.

wkRemapKeys is one of the most widely recognized modules and is even accepted here on TUS, in short, it's perfectly legal.

However, there are modules which are banned, such as wkWormOrder.

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Technically speaking there are no rules against the things I mentioned earlier as well, so you can use extra peripherals like having more than 1 keyboard plugged in, a footpedal, or spam spacebar with the mousewheel. Though it's definitely another learning curve of it's own, it definitely has the potential to give a massive advantage at top tier roping.

Most video games these days come with built-in key remappers, Worms Armageddon doesn't so wkRemapKeys put it on par with modern games, it's a QoL module as opposed to an advantage over anyone else. Not to mention it's something most gamers find common in video games, being able to remap your keys. So you see many gamers asking "How do I remap the keys in Worms Armageddon" but you see nobody asking "How do I use a footpedal for WA?"

Most games do not encourage people to download apps to make their mouse wheel spam space for every click or to use extra peripherals like a foot pedal, in fact most of the time this would be highly inconvenient, but Worms Armageddon has a niche skillset with this where it DOES have an advantage.

Though I personally think they are extremely lame and abusive and therefore do not do them myself other than for educational purposes such as documenting these things so at least the community knows of possible ways for people to have "inhumane" taps with assistance from extra technology. I checked those things out of curiosity as opposed to wanting to gain an edge over other players and I posted about them in my Discord server over a year ago.

Even if people were using these methods I personally wouldn't consider it cheating(although it's very lame) because in my eyes they aren't using anything automated, everything they are doing is still manual.

Though, saying that, It is my personal opinion that I consider players who do the following as less impressive and having less physical skill:

• Finger rolling with 2 or more spacebars(Finger rolling on 1 spacebar is more impressive in my opinion and I'm ok with it).
• Using foot pedals.
• Using mouse wheel as spacebar.

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My concern with THIS REPLAY specifically, is it looks like something automated is being used. As in you do one thing, it does multiple things and takes human timing out of the question for the duration of use. It looks like a combination of natural roping, with subtle use of some kind of script at certain moments, but in all honesty I have absolutely no definitive idea of what's going on, it's all assumption.

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This is a pure assumption, though I'd love to do some real analysis some day... Maybe someone who is a programmer could help me? This is interesting to me.

The average roper will have something like 5-10 frames of accuracy, as they don't consider "taps" their peak skillset. So if your opponent can save 5-10 frames 50 times in a game that's potentially 5-10 seconds over an entire game, which is quite a lot if you take into account they couldn't save that time normally without using a script/program doing it for them. As it's EXTREMELY useful to have these quick double shot taps on climbs where you disconnect then connect the rope immediately the very next frame.

Quote from: Aladdin on December 23, 2024, 05:44 PMSo, I have a question: So that module would be a cheat for using two or more spacebar on the wkRemapKeys ? By Steps

No. That module just allows you to remap your buttons. You can assign rope key(s) to whatever you like.

These guys are using forbidden scripts which are programmed to work against game mechanics and apparently they keep upgrading it over the years, since this what Shtaket (allegedly) is using, doesn't seem like a regular double rope cheat but something far more advanced.

Maybe it's the same script for last 10+ years, some guys are just getting better at hiding it. In the end, it's just a shame when you realize bunch of grown up individuals trying to get an unfair edge over you, on internet, in a game from '99. Even more ashamed for them, cause they're actually good at this without using anything.

Question marks hovering above my head, but it seems I'll never get the logic behind it all.

Quote from: Sensei on December 23, 2024, 06:18 PMwhat Shtaket (allegedly) is using, doesn't seem like a regular double rope cheat but something far more advanced.

can you elaborate? i took a look at the replay, and it looks like a regular double rope cheat. nothing "far more advanced" at all

Rocket is right that in league games, a script to automatically double tap can be like a safety cushion. I really don't see any reason to allow scripts, and doing so should be against the rules in league games (not commenting on this game, just in general).

If we allowed one kind of script then it seems like anything would be allowed, like say, a script to do a perfect boom race jump, or help with notching by doing the slightest tap possible. I'm not opposed to it in principle, but it seems like a bad direction since people shouldn't need extra programs to play the game, and it opens up a can of worms for various other scripts.

I also advice not to allow scripts in league either. It would go against all conventional principles of honest sportsmanship. There would be no honor. In addition, there is no honor using cheats in funners but I am more lenient to that though.

Though it could be Interesting to have a cup for cheaters. It would be interesting to see how cheaters would push each others cheats to new limits and each other. It would be self-contained competitive arena for people who needs special accessory to play.

Honor among Cheaters Krew - HACK.

Quote from: Impossible on December 24, 2024, 11:24 AM

Quote from: Sensei on December 23, 2024, 06:18 PMwhat Shtaket (allegedly) is using, doesn't seem like a regular double rope cheat but something far more advanced.

can you elaborate? i took a look at the replay, and it looks like a regular double rope cheat. nothing "far more advanced" at all

Not an expert, maybe I just didn't notice before that there are "smarter" ways of using this double rope script.

If you take a look at Shtaket turn @7:40, be sure to check how his rope is behaving from 7:56 to 8:01. He doesn't use the script like, for example, Corujao (yeah, I said the name of another cheater, sue me) and some others. He's hiding it so well that you can't even see it, unless you didn't spend hundreds of hours using ninja rope yourself.

Hence why I said this cheat looks like something far more advanced. Komito did explain everything I thought already and he provided even further analysis on the matter. Not too much left to say.

Quote from: Kradie on December 24, 2024, 03:08 PMit could be Interesting to have a cup for cheaters. It would be interesting to see how cheaters would push each others cheats to new limits and each other.

sorry but that's the dumbest idea i've probably heard.

1. it would be a shit show. you can use xspeed to slow down the game 60x, and do whatever you want in slow motion. while for other players it would be 1 minute lags for every sec of your turn. you might as well host a xspeed cup then
2. it would attract people to use cheats.
3. why would you even want to push cheats to the new limits? isn't it completely against the spirit of this game and community?

Quote from: Sensei on December 24, 2024, 05:37 PMHe's hiding it so well that you can't even see it

yeah, that's pretty much it

Quote from: Impossible on December 25, 2024, 03:34 AMsorry but that's the dumbest idea i've probably heard.

+1

I actually I wasn't sure it was a dumb Idea that's why I suggested it in a half baked jokingly tone. I don't advocate for cheaters but on the other hand it could be Interesting to see how each opponent would go against each other. What kind of dirty tricks they could pull out. It would be a cup of cheaters, a cup of disgraced players. It could also help us to understand the cheats that are being used too.