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WA Cheating, Implication, and Legacy

Started by Kradie, February 12, 2025, 12:55 AM

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Do you think cheating is ok in an online multiplayer game like WA? You can elaborate your thoughts in this thread if you want.

Yes
No

Kradie

When I was a teenager and started playing Worms Armageddon online, the first thing that caught my attention was "Ropers." They frequently played Ropers, TTRR, and Warmers, and I was always impressed by how fast their rope movements and taps were. Their speed seemed unnatural to me, and I noticed that many players displayed similar skills. Back then, I wondered if it was possible for me to reach such a phenomenal level of rope skill. Over time, I did develop some dexterity, and in my mind, I felt I was on the right path to becoming a pro.

Eventually, I decided to leave Worms behind and focus on my life. I was away for over ten years and returned to WA in 2015. I saw many skilled ropers, but the "super fast tap" ropers were less common. Their speed still seemed unnatural, yet impressive. However, something about these extremely fast ropers bothered me, though I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I hesitated to call them out because many of them were highly respected. Additionally, I preferred to avoid confrontation—besides, they weren't harming anyone. Still, I had a lingering suspicion that some might be using something to gain an advantage. Not all of them had super fast taps, though.

In the past, people often told me that a mechanical keyboard was the key to improvement. They weren't wrong. Eventually, I got myself a mechanical keyboard, and my roping skills noticeably improved. As time passed, I upgraded to a monitor with a faster response time and a higher refresh rate. I also increased my resolution to 1080p and disabled both V-Sync options. My roping dexterity dramatically improved, and I even experimented with different keyboards. However, despite these enhancements, achieving super fast taps remained impossible. I could occasionally pull off a finger roll, but not consistently. Ironically, some lesser-experienced players accused me of cheating.

As time went on, I learned that some players used scripts to enhance their roping skills, essentially taking their gameplay to another level. As I understood it, these scripts performed the roping for them. At first, I didn't want to make a fuss about it, but it made me reflect on everything I had seen back in 2015 and the mid-2000s. How many players had used such tools to gain an unfair advantage? Players who had received years—if not decades—of praise and accolades? Were the legacies of renowned ropers and even ground players built on a false foundation? Maybe this topic is considered taboo, or perhaps I simply reached my limit and could never attain such roping skills myself.

So why am I writing about this now? A recent event in our community—where a member was allegedly caught cheating on TUS (to my understanding)—got me thinking. How many players in the past might have used tools to gain an advantage? Many of them aren't even around anymore, which could explain why we see less of that extreme roping today. Of course, a valid counterpoint to this would be: "It's because there's less interest in roping."

With that said, let me be clear: I do not condone the use of such tools, even if they break barriers to a new level of experience. I have a moral compass that values fairness, fun, and a just game for everyone. That said, I know this may sound contradictory, but I personally don't mind if people use tool-assisted scripts in my rope race games. My rope skills can still hold their own, and even if I lose, it doesn't bother me much. However, I fully understand why others take issue with this, and I sympathize with them. It robs them of a fair and just game. The element of fun disappears when a player is faced with an opponent whose seemingly unachievable skills make the game feel hopeless.

Recently, someone on WormNET became more open about their reliance on a rope tool and confessed to a few players, who did not take it lightly—despite having shared countless hours of fun together. I don't believe canceling or shunning someone is the right approach, but I do understand why people react that way. It challenges their morals and their sense of fair play. At the end of the day, for me, it's all about fun, but for others, fun means fair competition. Ultimately, I think scripts should not be allowed in WA, but perhaps that's wishful thinking.

I know of both a cheater and a legitimate player whose roping skills appear nearly identical. I discussed these two with a friend who has played alongside them. I asked, "Which of the two looks legit to you?" My friend couldn't believe that either of them cheated. However, when I insisted that one did, he hesitantly guessed, "It's the cheater." His reaction was interesting—he simply couldn't believe it. Furthermore, he remarked that it was unnecessary for the cheater to use scripts because he was already good.

Of course, people who cheat and rely on it tend to lack a stable moral compass and ethics—though I could be wrong. If someone is okay with cheating in WA, what's stopping them from doing the same elsewhere? It speaks volumes about the kind of person they are. It also astonishes me how cheaters can rationalize their act of cheating and justify why they do it.

I have learned something disturbing: there are people in our community, even those of familiar status, who may be distributing the rope script cheat to those who express curiosity and admiration. If this is the case, what kind of morals and standards are we setting here? Should cheating be normalized, or should there be stronger opposition against it?
You may have noticed that I haven't mentioned any names. These are people I still enjoy playing with, and I don't condemn them for their ongoing actions. While I may not approve of it, it is what it is.

In case if you are not sure what cheat I am talking about, it's mainly rope cheats that automates your maneuvering and taps for you. I am not familiar with land cheat though.

This topic is about discussing cheats, understanding the motivations behind them, and questioning whether some past ropers may have used them—though I am open to being corrected.

So, what are your thoughts? Have you encountered players who cheat or have cheated? Are you a cheater, or have you ever cheated? Please share your thoughts.
Global Wormin' - A Friendly Discord Worms Server
https://discord.gg/zvFwZuAKQB

Someone is using my name on WormNET. If you are under suspicion if you aren't with the real Kradie, then pelase confirm my real ID here on TUS or discord @Kradie.

Schemes I mostly play: Big RRz and Roperz.

https://worms2d.info/People/Kradie

TheWalrus

give us names so we know who not to take seriously

they should not be playing league games

Kradie

Quote from: TheWalrus on February 12, 2025, 02:45 AMgive us names so we know who not to take seriously

they should not be playing league games
I mostly play funners, and so does most of the people I play with too, Including people with ''super fast taps'' scripts. To Include their names would not do anybody good, but I am certain there are people who know people who cheats in ground and rope schemes. I simply wish to bring awareness to this ''supposedly'' taboo.

I don't think it is alright to distribute cheats between people, it could damage the reputation of WA. People's Integrity could be at jeopardy and challenged at some point, and WA could be the game known as cheaters paradise.

Of course I am strictly talking about casual games on WA.
Global Wormin' - A Friendly Discord Worms Server
https://discord.gg/zvFwZuAKQB

Someone is using my name on WormNET. If you are under suspicion if you aren't with the real Kradie, then pelase confirm my real ID here on TUS or discord @Kradie.

Schemes I mostly play: Big RRz and Roperz.

https://worms2d.info/People/Kradie

Kaleu

There are barely 8–10 of us playing the same matches every day. If the goal is to ruin what's left, just start banning whoever you suspect. Or, you know, just play and relax. Speedruns are the only thing that stand out and pierces our bubble, and Mablak is the only one who even cares. I would understand all the concern if we didn't have players because of cheaters, but that's not the case here. So what's the big deal?

Sometimes I can't help but think that the only way to keep this place sane is to shut down the forum entirely and leave only the league. That way, people would actually play instead of ranting and whining. Or at least keep their drama confined to their own private message groups where it belongs.



Kradie

#4
Quote from: Kaleu on February 12, 2025, 04:34 AMThere are barely 8–10 of us playing the same matches every day. If the goal is to ruin what's left, just start banning whoever you suspect. Or, you know, just play and relax. Speedruns are the only thing that stand out and pierces our bubble, and Mablak is the only one who even cares. I would understand all the concern if we didn't have players because of cheaters, but that's not the case here. So what's the big deal?

Sometimes I can't help but think that the only way to keep this place sane is to shut down the forum entirely and leave only the league. That way, people would actually play instead of ranting and whining. Or at least keep their drama confined to their own private message groups where it belongs.
Do you think that my post exhibited ranting and whining? I think I came out fairly balanced and easy going in regards to what I wanted to say.

Indeed I do relax and have fun, Including with those that has scripts, so much is clear.

I just seek clarity and understanding of the morals behind cheating. I think TUS forums is fine for that.

What do you mean by that ''What's left?''. Perhaps what you are referring to ''what's left'' is of the league itself. There are very few people who plays the league, but the overall online activity is about the same 10-15 years ago if you check the steam charts. 

I don't think we should shut down the forums because we ask these types of questions. If you find yourself less sane because of the forums and perhaps some of the contents you see here, you could choose not to come read and participate.
Global Wormin' - A Friendly Discord Worms Server
https://discord.gg/zvFwZuAKQB

Someone is using my name on WormNET. If you are under suspicion if you aren't with the real Kradie, then pelase confirm my real ID here on TUS or discord @Kradie.

Schemes I mostly play: Big RRz and Roperz.

https://worms2d.info/People/Kradie

FoxHound

TUS is the biggest forum since Team17 official one shut down. Forums are nice, many people are not active, but still use the forums only to read sometimes. I already used a lot of information in the forums as source to the history of this game in the wiki.


TheKomodo

#6
I was really getting into roping again then there was Shtaket who was caught cheating, then that Soul guy I enjoyed roping with started using some script for fast taps, he said it's being passed about and there was rumour that a few high end ropers were using the same thing and it just ruined it for me.

I have put a lot of hours into becoming as fast and good as I am, and to see other people achieve similar speed via cheating is just disheartening, there's no point playing with these people who can't be honest. I don't see the point playing with a bunch of cowards and cheaters. It's got to the point where I honestly don't know who to trust...

So yeah, got plenty of games to keep me busy and started getting into real life Darts again and plan on joining the local pub team, least you know there's no lowlife cheating scumbags there.

If you wanna do it in your own private time for fun fair enough but doing it alongside genuine players is pathetic, such a waste of human flesh honestly.

Kaleu

Is there a new script I don't know about? Because using the script I know won't make you a better player in any way. If you suck and don't put in the effort to learn rope, you'll keep sucking no matter what script you use. Stop fooling yourself with such nonsense.

The only real cheats are modules that reveal crate contents, expose inventories, and provide unfair advantages like permanent laser sight or the ability to see invisible worms (not counting offline cheats like XSpeed). Back in the day, cheats like these actually existed.

I know, must be frustrating to blow a fortune on top-tier hardware and still get outplayed by some random player with real skills.



Kradie

Are you two done now? Can we please get back on topic?

Anyhow..

Dear reader, if you think cheating is ok or not on WA or in any online multiplayer game, then you are welcome to share your thoughts on it.

Also I have added a poll!
Global Wormin' - A Friendly Discord Worms Server
https://discord.gg/zvFwZuAKQB

Someone is using my name on WormNET. If you are under suspicion if you aren't with the real Kradie, then pelase confirm my real ID here on TUS or discord @Kradie.

Schemes I mostly play: Big RRz and Roperz.

https://worms2d.info/People/Kradie

Kaleu

Quote from: Kradie on February 13, 2025, 01:58 AMAre you two done now? Can we please get back on topic?

Anyhow..

Dear reader, if you think cheating is ok or not on WA or in any online multiplayer game, then you are welcome to share your thoughts on it.

Also I have added a poll!

I'm fine with someone posting the roping script and people decide for themselves whether it's an gamebreaking advantage or not.
If you have a good keyboard it's the same IMO.



j0e

#10
Cheating during league games is likely bad.  But, we can play devil's advocate for a minute. If your enjoyment of WA comes from your heightened abilities and you wouldn't play otherwise: maybe you're actually doing more good on the whole in 2025 by increasing activity of TUS.  For every game you play, someone else is also playing TUS. There aren't so many TUS players that we can assume they'd just play someone else if not with you.

But I think this "increasing activity" factor might only be positive if nobody ever suspects/catches you cheating.

In theory, by successfully cheating undetectedly, you are raising the (perceived) standard of competitive, legitimate play. This could be a good thing.  Whether this standards-raising is an overall-positive thing, though, might depend whether your competitiveness inspires more players to improve (in order to compete), or whether more people just give up and stop trying to compete.  It would also matter whether you encourage them to improve legitimately via practice, or whether you just encourage them to cheat themselves. 

If people know you're cheating then they might be more likely to cheat themselves, and in that case I'd guess that your cheating would be overall more bad than good. 

So if you want to be the most morally-righteous possible cheater, do the following:
1. Cheat secretly but fog everyone into thinking your performance is due to practice, lucky genetics and/or really nice hardware.
2. Talk trash about (historical) cheaters whenever possible, especially if your opinion might influence others not to seek ways to cheat.
3. Do not spread knowledge of ways to cheat, or of the existence of current effective cheating methods.
4. Warn about and exaggerate possible consequences of cheating -- a downwards spiral involving psychologists, depression, self-harm and loathing, loneliness and ultimately death.

Another factor to consider is how undetectable the cheat is and how well-known it is.  If the cat's already out of the bag (that effective undetectable cheats exist) maybe we can't go back to a trustworthy non-cheating league.  Depending how we answer some of the earlier questions, and if TUS and WA activity is considered the prime moral good (as it pertains to WA), maybe we're actually morally obligated to cheat our asses off in TUS matches.

Another thought experiment:  everyone loves talking about Olympics where steroids/PEDs are allowed. If cheating was legitimized by TUS or another league, and if that legitimacy would assuredly result in increased activity of WA and new heights of accomplishment, could it be a net good, as long as games were still a competitive measure of skill/strategy?  Would a cheating league be fun for people and actually improve activity?  Or is too much of the fun having an edge and not getting caught? 
To answer this:  No.  I think that a cheating league would be problematic because it's essentially an all-or-nothing proposition, all cheats allowed or no cheats allowed. Today's cheats might be relatively harmless tap-macros (they aren't), but tomorrow's cheats might give Komo-level bng skills and Mablak-level roping, or better.  We can't be assured that these league games would always remain a competitive measure of skill/strategy.  So, IMO, a league where all cheating is allowed is a terrible idea, at least long-term.  It was ultimately a wasted thought experiment but I've already typed it. And you've probably already read it anyway lol.

All of this until now has been about cheating in leagues, but what about funners?  I don't personally give a shit if people cheat in funners. However some of the above reasoning may apply to funners as well, and impact whether funner cheating is good or bad. 


Anyway, this is all conjecture, to spur discussion. I'm not committing to a side, just interested in the topic. Full disclosure- I have cheated in the long-ago past, including in league games at times. I don't personally feel very compelled by moral issues in general. Humans are a laughably insignificant part of the cosmos (whether there's life elsewhere or not), and morals are just an invention of that insignificance and a mechanism of power and control over said bullshit, like religion. That's beyond the scope here. Basically WA is an old game that I want to not die (and ideally to flourish), but beyond that I don't give a shit how people enjoy it. I gave up on the competitive side long ago and was never very good. Don't make this personal about me.

A final piece of devil's advocacy (which certainly never applied to me):  Whether you cheat or not, the few percent difference between "skilled" and "competitive" (including consistency) takes a ton of effort. Some successful cheaters have put way more total effort into WA than have some of the righteous lifetime-middle-skilled players who might complain about cheaters.  Reaching excellency in anything is admirable, even if it's cheating.  We shouldn't necessarily dismiss all cheaters as if they are trash, since excellency is its own virtue, and cheating may even have indirect benefits (if it's done deceitfully and hypocritically enough).

Corujão

Kradie, I understand your indignation.
In an ideal world, players would be honest, but in the real world, we don't have full control over that. The most sensible way is for you to ignore and/or filter better who you play with.
My channel - https://bit.ly/3dCb4A3

Corujão

#12
Why not expand the discussion about cheating instead of reducing it to roping scripts? Let's talk about the clear water publicly available for download on a public page at https://worms2d.info/Water_color_editor ? And why does no one question the fact that a WA developer plays the Team17 crates scheme without seeming suspicious? I wonder if this is hypocrisy or collegiality.
My channel - https://bit.ly/3dCb4A3

Kradie

Quote from: Corujão on February 13, 2025, 06:44 AMKradie, I understand your indignation.
In an ideal world, players would be honest, but in the real world, we don't have full control over that. The most sensible way is for you to ignore and/or filter better who you play with.
That doesn't mean we should accept and give in. We cannot control other people but we can control ourselves. I think it is better to choose what is right not what is convenient.

Quote from: Corujão on February 13, 2025, 07:15 AMWhy not expand the discussion about cheating instead of reducing it to roping scripts? Let's talk about the clear water publicly available for download on a public page at https://worms2d.info/Water_color_editor ? And why does no one question the fact that a WA developer plays the Team17 crates scheme without seeming suspicious? I wonder if this is hypocrisy or collegiality.
Roping script is a form of cheat due to its automation behavior, same with aim bot. Earlier today I had a game with a person and he said that ''Soul has given me reason to rope better'' or something like that. This person doesn't even realize that Soul uses rope script. Quite frankly I am a bit scared what his reaction will be when he learns the truth. He could probably embrace the convenience of automation. But the cheater's mind will rationale it, and say something like ''This script takes roping to next level, and it is more difficult''.

I wonder why this clear water is even available in the first place? It surely does make it more convenient to those who have it, compared to those that doesn't have it.

Are you Corujao, Implying that Deadcode is actively cheating because he is a WA developer? Could you perhaps go into some detail on this?

Somebody told me something on discord, something that I forgot that I once thought: If someone wants to cheat, they should tell that before the game start or during the game. But here is the thing.. If a person reveals they are cheating, who is to stop them to share their cheats?

It all boils down to the person's ethics. Ethics is derived from a person's real life and their uprising. I cannot cheat or use Innocent aids, because it would conflict with my ethics, I would feel guilty. It fascinates me (psychologically) that people chooses to cheat and rationales it, and it also makes me sad. But I cannot control them, but I can say my piece and hope they take some of the Info to heart.
Global Wormin' - A Friendly Discord Worms Server
https://discord.gg/zvFwZuAKQB

Someone is using my name on WormNET. If you are under suspicion if you aren't with the real Kradie, then pelase confirm my real ID here on TUS or discord @Kradie.

Schemes I mostly play: Big RRz and Roperz.

https://worms2d.info/People/Kradie

King-Gizzard

It's an interesting topic but it feels a bit like screaming into the void. 

Sadly, cheating is always going to be a concern that everyone has to accept and move on.  Using tools that give a big advantage obviously isn't fair, but the person who uses them is kidding themselves; they know that they cheated and if they're serious about playing, their victory won't feel the same.  I like to think this puts prolific cheaters in the minority.

I suppose the elephant in the room is modules or loaders that hook the game's code.  The cheating possibilities here dwarf the concerns mentioned about roping.  Even anti cheat code in future updates could be patched out.  But it's not all bad; without gifted coders inspired to hack up WA and create dedicated cheat programs for fun we might not have Deadcode doing the great work he's doing with the game now.  Deadcode could have all manner of cheats running in his build during competitive games but I don't believe for a second that he does.