Quote from: DarkOne on February 16, 2011, 09:36 AM
Well, then why does it matter in which order games are reported?
The answer is that if I play 2 games against someone and I score 1-1, then my rating will be higher if I win the second game.

It sounds like you'd prefer Mablak's idea, which is also a nice idea, just in a different way -> "treating all matches between two opponents with equal importance; your total record against someone for the season is all that should be taken into account."

Quote from: DarkOne on February 16, 2011, 09:36 AM
I don't know what exactly is the rating system, so I can't give any objective numbers, but just pick your last 10 elite results, but then throw in a win against Random at the start and calculate your rating. Then have the same results and put the win against Random at the end instead of the start.
Compare ratings. You will see a big difference.

what was Random's overall at the start? did he go on a huge losing streak? maybe even a huge winning streak? picking one of these.. then what was his overall at the end? these variables affect the points you're awarded/lost. and how was your own performance for those 10 games in between? did you go on a huge losing streak yourself? maybe a huge winning streak? those seasonal variables also affect the points you're awarded/lost.

there's no one answer to your question.. so no, it's not fair to just conclude that "You will see a big difference."

I'd say Random's rating is pretty stabile



at any rate, the amount of points you'd win at his highest or lowest rating lately won't give you much more/less points. I did some fiddling around in excel and I found a nice approximation of the expected score (or at least, I thought so).


The further left, the higher your opponent's rating in comparison to yours, the further up, the more points you get for a win against that player

I took a couple of your last results and I used this formula to calculate what your rating would be a) when I add a win against random at the start and b) when I add a win against random at the end.

If you started with a win against Random, you'd have a rating of 1705 (singles classic elite rating), but if you end with a win against Random, you'd have a rating of 1723, which is 18 points difference in favour of beating him later.
Disregarding this fictive result against Random gave me a rating of 1665 btw, so the calculations I've been doing are off couldn't get it much better after tweaking, but the difference remained about the same.

That may not seem like much, until you take a closer look.
In situation a (start with a win against Random), you win 61 points by beating him.
In situation b (end with a win against Random), you win 57 points by beating him.

According to the numbers, you had a better result in situation a, yet your rating is higher after situation b. But let's be honest: both game orders should lead to the same end rating

So basically, yes, I think all results should have equal value

it could just be me, but your example is really confusing. I don't understand anything from it.. what framework/system/variables are you using? maybe it makes perfect sense to you, but the way you explained it wasn't clear.

in any case, it still sounds like you prefer Mablak's idea to treat all games the same, no matter when they are played. maybe you two can work together to make a good proposal that suits both your ideas, and in the end, suits TUS.

Basically, I took your latest 13 results in TUS singles for elite and redid some calculations

First situation: you beat Random and then follow the 13 results I picked.
Second situation: first are the 13 results I picked and then you beat Random

To be honest, I didnt read the whole thread but since I know how the system from HHC works, I do support it. Regarding last activity in w:a and over tus, and for generell, there are some things which are very important in my opinion.

Credo: "Protect the Pro's!"

I dont have anything against semiskilled or noobs playing leagues, sure not. But we have to protect every Pro! I really miss some nice replays from very skilled cracks like Mablak, Crash, Random00, Dulek and so on. I dont think its only having no time for playing worms. The truth is laying in the system. It's just no pleasure to see oneself somewhere at position #100. The current ranking table is looking like rigged. So...

- We need standings, which reflecting the right skills!

This is a very important point in my eyes. Good players are feeling like "further it comes...". But skilled players deserves a high position in the rankings to keep them having fun by playing worms / ladders.

At the end. I totally agree to HHC System for a try and remove seasonal ranking at all. I want the best players in each PO and the fairest system we can get for it.

Sorry, if I repeated something from previous pages. Like I said, I didnt get the power yet to read the whole, mega thread.

 

Yea

Overall i do think the HHC system is an improve on the current system. We should put it into place and see how it goes!

Quote from: SPW on February 16, 2011, 10:35 PMI dont think its only having no time for playing worms. The truth is laying in the system. It's just no pleasure to see oneself somewhere at position #100. The current ranking table is looking like rigged. So...

Why is being #1 in Seasonal so important anyway? Is it the fact no one can see how good you are that bothers you, Mablak and Random will get the Playoffs because they own the scheme and will probably always be #1 and #2 Overall, if I was them, I would be happy enough with that.

The best players will always be seen in Overall over long periods of time, Seasonal shouldn't even exist imo, then people would not have these awkward feelings.

Maybe we need to encourage players to start checking the Overall Standings more often, and follow the changes, like, have a little symbol that changes from week to week like:

UP 6
DOWN 7
NO CHANGE

I dunno, just throwing an idea out there, I would like to see something like that, you know, like you see in the Music charts?

It is quite funny to see me at 55-0 in BnG Season 18, and only being 5th place lol.

I think Mablaks system (or whoever invented it) sounds best for me, why should other people differ the rating of my opponent when we have never played/have already played. It makes no sense since the individual is the core key in a singles league. As for now it seems like everyone is playing against the good players since they suffer the most under these circumstances. People should always get the points they deserve vs. the one they played against, no matter what other games were played.

And a way to avoid playing the same people over and over would be to reduce the INDIVIDUAL rating of both after, say 10 games, so they gain less and less points to the point they just get way less point off a win.

Player A and B both win 10 games, so both are more or less around the same rating, now with game 11 the Rating of both get reduced to (1000 is the start) 750, so they will only gain 0,75. next game it gets reduced to 0,50 and so on to the limit of 0,25. Noone has to worry if they have maxed out games and can just enjoy playing eachother without harming the system in my opinion.

tl,dr.:

Mablaks Idea.

A little wish from my side and i guess i speak for many players in this league: Make the new system as simple as it can be. You're doing noone a favour with implementing a new system only studied mathematics can understand. And if i take a look at this thread and HHC's 10 page long PDF file i'm expecting the worst... see players want a system they can understand otherwise many people will feel it is unjusty just because they can't understand it.

In my opinion that only happens when the system isn't transparent. Like when I go into details of a game and can't rely on the information why I/Opponent lost/won his/her points. So as long as you can see WHY you lose/win those points it can be very complex and still easy to understand.

Transparency is good as long as you can understand what shines underneath the glass. I just hope this will get as simple as it can, there is no need to think of every possibility in which a player could be treated unjustly or one could cheat or something. That would just lead to an over complexity which makes it too complicated to understand the whole.

but, how can u say the current system is not over complicated? i mean.. how in the hell can u figure out what u will gain or lose?? you cant...

thats what the analyzer is for, no matter what the system turns into.... ya know?

That's exactly my point. I never said the current system is better than what comes, whatever it will be like...

Well but tbh, with ratings and the like you can't just rely on basic math like 1+2=3 lol. I mean you know, there has to be something working in the background and it's just nothing wrong with it. I mean that's what the analyzer is for, just like avi says. Why should I do the math for the league? xD

The analyzer would still be useful even if you understood the way points get calculated, as you said, easier to calculate it all by yourself. My point is just, if you consider any possiblity in which a player can manipulate the system it will lead to a more complex solution which would lead to less traceability for the people playing the league which will lead to more people being unhappy with the system. That's all i want to say.