BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE

[Casso]

lol and I'm sure that if I pick Dulek, Mablak, Statik or Barman (sorry I will not mention the full list) in ttrr you wouldn't win more than 1/10 of games. Your 1/2 sucks near the 1/10 and that's the proof.
Still if newbie how you call me can beat that uber pro like Casso even in 30-40% of the games (so far we played only 1 game won by me) isn't that proof that the person isn't that pro or scheme is just lucky? Come on, you are so brainless.

this makes no sense... we know that ttrr is a scheme that requires many skills, and luck factor is almost absent but this doesn't mean that Hysteria sucks compared with it. We played only 2 games 2 years ago and you won 1, so ? I remember you were pretty good in Hysteria, what's the problem ? really can't understand what do you want to prove.

I have never told you are a newbie and you can't take as an example a game played 2 years ago.

I hope that you understood what 1-2 games out of 10 means. it's about 15% (3/20) of Hysteria games against 10% (2/20) of ttrr games.

[Free]

I tried to not write anything in this discussion but since I have been pulled in I feel obliged to answer.

I think that these things don't  solve anything but since Free is asking insistently to start the challenge I gladly accept.

I'll show you that to be competitive in Hysteria you need years of experience because it's not only about telecow, it's about tactic, tricks and skills... these things take years (just ask Komo if you doesn't believe me).

I also think that Hysteria can help this Game/Community to grow; for example in my case the first game that I played online was Hysteria and I started to love this game playing it. After about 1 year I discovered this Community.

I will play 10 games against you and I'm sure you won't win more than 1/2 games. would happen the same thing if at my place would play Random, Gabriel, Artic, Crash, Komo, Kaleu, Almog, SPW, Chelsea, Phanton, fenrys, Krezo and many others (sorry I can't write the full list xD)

P.S Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I hope you understand

Ok, so 2 weeks from now on, 10 games total (I hope we wont have to play all of them at once so we can have full concentration) and let's see if I get 40%, as in I win 4 games out of 10. I agree to this ONLY if MI agrees to either modify the scheme or remove it/make own league to it whatever, as long as it doesn't stay in classic as it is. You say it needs years of experience and your considered one of the top players, so MI shouldn't have problems agreeing with this.

[chakkman]

I wonder what the hell is so difficult to understand about hyst being the most popular scheme in this league. Still you want to create a poll and do a challenge to prove something. Prove what? Hyst is already the most popular, there is no need to prove that it is. This is getting really stupid...

Calm down man, I m an hyst supporter...
We are in democracy, so let's vote.

I wasn't directly referring to you, more in general to this topic. As you've seen also, we already had at least 2 polls in the past. We don't need another. Also democracy is good, but there should be some general direction too. Otherwise every insane suggestion flows into this league, and it all gets mixed up to something that doesn't really work.

The way i see it this is 1 or 2 guys against the rest of the world anyway, so. *shrugs*

[TheKomodo]

U seriously think that effectively played (piling+side zooks/force sd, 1-shot win) is a good scheme to play in classic league? It's so f@#!ing boring and lame looking, that's why we have so many anti-hysteria threads.

That's your opinion man, not every game is like that for starters, and even if it was, it still takes alot of skill to execute those crucial shots, the better player, the better shot, will win. Just understand it already...

Calm down man, I m an hyst supporter...
We are in democracy, so let's vote.

The only way I would see a vote like this happen fairly is if every single legit member of TuS votes, not just the "regulars and trolls".

Most of the people who really like Hysteria probably wouldn't even vote.

[Casso]

I tried to not write anything in this discussion but since I have been pulled in I feel obliged to answer.

I think that these things don't  solve anything but since Free is asking insistently to start the challenge I gladly accept.

I'll show you that to be competitive in Hysteria you need years of experience because it's not only about telecow, it's about tactic, tricks and skills... these things take years (just ask Komo if you doesn't believe me).

I also think that Hysteria can help this Game/Community to grow; for example in my case the first game that I played online was Hysteria and I started to love this game playing it. After about 1 year I discovered this Community.

I will play 10 games against you and I'm sure you won't win more than 1/2 games. would happen the same thing if at my place would play Random, Gabriel, Artic, Crash, Komo, Kaleu, Almog, SPW, Chelsea, Phanton, fenrys, Krezo and many others (sorry I can't write the full list xD)

P.S Sorry if my english isn't perfect, I hope you understand

Ok, so 2 weeks from now on, 10 games total (I hope we wont have to play all of them at once so we can have full concentration) and let's see if I get 40%, as in I win 4 games out of 10. I agree to this ONLY if MI agrees to either modify the scheme or remove it/make own league to it whatever, as long as it doesn't stay in classic as it is. You say it needs years of experience and your considered one of the top players, so MI shouldn't have problems agreeing with this.

Agreed.

Only a thing... I ask you to be as fair as possible. I'll try to check if you will play these games or someone else at your place (for example a skilled Hysteria hater). No1 will spectate in our games to prevent hints (in Hysteria it's too important).

[ANO]

The only way I would see a vote like this happen fairly is if every single legit member of TuS votes, not just the "regulars and trolls".
Most of the people who really like Hysteria probably wouldn't even vote.

you are right

[MonkeyIsland]

Ok, so 2 weeks from now on, 10 games total (I hope we wont have to play all of them at once so we can have full concentration) and let's see if I get 40%, as in I win 4 games out of 10. I agree to this ONLY if MI agrees to either modify the scheme or remove it/make own league to it whatever, as long as it doesn't stay in classic as it is. You say it needs years of experience and your considered one of the top players, so MI shouldn't have problems agreeing with this.

You want to remove the most popular scheme from Classic league, then you must be willing to go to distance. 10 games vs one single player won't do, but it certainly will prove a point. The kind of a point that touches me. There's also Gabriel and many others. (I can't talk for them) If I was in your place and I wanted to prove this point, I'd make a list of great players and try to get a decent winning percentage from each of them. Trying to beat one single player in order to change things around is not the way. Don't bother if that's the highest effort you're willing to do. Nice movie about someone taking the challenge to high skilled ones

But if you manage to pull this, then we'll finally have something to refer to. *An average Hysteria player, took the challenge and beat the high skilled ones.*

In that case, we can start talking about solutions, otherwise it is just like people accuse Intermediate of lucky placements but don't stand a chance vs high skilled players. I'm not interested in theoretical flaws of schemes.

p.s. There's also chance if you train enough, you switch sides lol

[darKz]

Disclaimer: The following text may cause heart failure for Hysteria fanboys. I won't pay your ambulance fees!

Hysteria got put into classic league after a poll with a 56% majority voting for the scheme. Back then nobody really knew what competitive Hysteria looked like because at that time nobody had played it that way. Now, a good 4 years and numerous complaints by oldschool wormers (who have actually played it, I may add) later the scheme still persists. "Because it's popular".

I won't deny that there's a certain skillset which one needs to stand on top of the Hysteria rankings. However when it comes to the top of the ladder duking it out among each other, there are games in which both players are in a 1vs1 stalemate position where they would hypothetically teleport around the map for all eternity because they both can't get a shot at the other. Usually this cycle is ended by one of the two losing their patience, teleporting to either an open spot where the other player can get a shot at him, or to a spot which provides protection but no chance to actually shoot. In the latter case the other player will just enforce SD so the hidden player will have to teleport to some open place on top eventually. Either way it's a loss-loss situation and could be avoided by just continuing to teleport around in the aforementioned cycle and waiting for the other player to lose patience first.

I don't expect anyone to actually read and understand this but I've seen several situations like this, the scheme is just not suited for high level competitive play.
Random00 is a really good overall player and has this winning mentality, he never gives up. That's part of the reason why he's on top of the Hysteria standings, he lets others do the mistake before he does it himself. And that Maverick guy has a winning percentage that high because he mostly played complete newbies who lack general knowledge about the game.

I won't bother looking up games or providing any other kind of proof btw, my words make perfect sense if you just let them get through to you and if you've played the scheme on a decently high level. Not gonna bother with Komos incoming wall of text either. (Just let this stand as my opinion rather than facts if it makes you happier Komo, it's obviously something only very few people can see.)

[Statik]

Free, do you really believe that if you'll beat top players, they will remove hysteria? I thought your real wish was to populate more skilled schemes, like Elite. Today people prefer hysteria. If there wasn't hysteria, then I would probably learn bng or elite. But I don't have time to practice all schemes, so I picked to learn hysteria, and now when I play elites I know they are harder to learn and play. Or maybe it's just me

[Free]

Ok, so 2 weeks from now on, 10 games total (I hope we wont have to play all of them at once so we can have full concentration) and let's see if I get 40%, as in I win 4 games out of 10. I agree to this ONLY if MI agrees to either modify the scheme or remove it/make own league to it whatever, as long as it doesn't stay in classic as it is. You say it needs years of experience and your considered one of the top players, so MI shouldn't have problems agreeing with this.

You want to remove the most popular scheme from Classic league, then you must be willing to go to distance. 10 games vs one single player won't do, but it certainly will prove a point. The kind of a point that touches me. There's also Gabriel and many others. (I can't talk for them) If I was in your place and I wanted to prove this point, I'd make a list of great players and try to get a decent winning percentage from each of them. Trying to beat one single player in order to change things around is not the way. Don't bother if that's the highest effort you're willing to do. Nice movie about someone taking the challenge to high skilled ones

But if you manage to pull this, then we'll finally have something to refer to. *An average Hysteria player, took the challenge and beat the high skilled ones.*

In that case, we can start talking about solutions, otherwise it is just like people accuse Intermediate of lucky placements but don't stand a chance vs high skilled players. I'm not interested in theoretical flaws of schemes.

p.s. There's also chance if you train enough, you switch sides lol

There's no way I want to go through the torture of playing more than 1 of the top players, it should already prove enough that Hysteria is a scheme of true skill since there's no way I could go from average to top player in just 2 weeks if the scheme skilled enough. Even Casso said that there's no way I can win more than 2. I've watched enough hyst games (from top players also) and good enough overall defaulter to see the basic routines behind effective hyst tactics, there's no way it would take me more than 2 weeks to grasb the general feel for the scheme and some of its tricks, only true question is that would my accuracy. Only reason I haven't given enough time to properly play hysteria is because the effective tactics are so ridicilous and boring, they make no sense to me, who's played every league out there, from WACL to TUS. Just the f@#!ing fact it's most often good to kill your own worms from the very beginning already SCREAMS flaw. Then there comes the darkside side-zooking, oh my f@#!ing god.

Why can't you simply consider the idea of making Hysteria-only league? It might even work and even be more beneificial to all parties, average to pro hysteria lovers as us "hyst-haters". I'm sure none of us "hyst-haters" want to general activity to go down, but to look for solution that benefits all, because really, hysteria is the most flawed scheme in classic atm. Imo.

[HHC]

Players in classic league with an overall winning % of:
80 or higher: elite 6, hysteria 4.
70-80%: elite 23, hysteria 14.

Elite had 39 pages of players, Hysteria about 46. Hysteria is a little bit more played.
Players with 30 or less games played weren't counted.

I guess that says (ceteris paribus) Elite is less luck based than Hyst. But you can't say hyst is entirely luck based.


For me the issue is not the luck-factor, but the dubious tactics and the extent to which a scheme rewards cheap play.
Elite, Team17 and Intermediate don't have such loopholes... at all. (afaik)

Roper has some (see for example the clanner I played vs bh, the map was so hard that sd was impossible to make for them. I was 1vs2, so the only thing I had to do was place a mine near one of the other guys, but not near enough to make it explode, cause that would be cow. And then set them off the next turn to take around 30 dmg. without ever making any attempt to w2w). A more common example are top hides (which one MIGHT call cheap).

Shopper has some. The 1st turn plop I mentioned. As well as maybe the petrol attack, which is IMO something that should be taken out by scheme. Same for flamethrowers.

BnG has plenty. This scheme basically revolves around who is able to cheap the most. Through placement, hides, repeat shots, notching, bouncing/sitting, weapon choice, etcetera.

Hysteria has plenty as well. From simple side-hides to telecow and 80 HP sui's.

WxW: fairly clean, see shopper + benefit for the guy who has map experience.

TTRR: clean. Even map advantage has little profit here.


Based on 'scheme flaws' as mentioned above alone, BnG and Hyst might be reconsidered.
But if you were to remove those two you'd end up with a very unbalanced league, where 66% of the schemes are rope based. Even with intermediate included (which is IMO an entirely different game than elite or t17) the league would still be unbalanced.

I personally don't think it's a bad idea to put in some kind of weighing system.

Class A: Elite.
Class B: Ropes: (Roper, TTRR)
Class C: Default misc (Team17, Hysteria, Intermediate)
Class D: Small schemes (Shopper, WxW, BnG, Aerial + alternating decent Freeleague scheme)

If each of these classes accounts for 25% of a player's overall season rating it would balance the league a lot better IMO.
The importance of schemes would be:
Elite 25%
Roper and TTRR 12.5% each (as it is today)
Team17, Hysteria and Intermediate 8.33%
Shopper, WxW, BnG, Aerial + Freeleague scheme 5% each.

This greatly decreases the importance of 'broken' schemes. And adds more importance to those that arent: elite, roper and ttrr.

[Kaleu]

@darKz  now tell us something we don't know!

But honestly, most of the hysteria games that I've played in my life, did not end with someone skiping turns to get sd, you can download my lastest hyst matches and see yourself, sometimes people exaggerate.

[Statik]

I'm not interested in theoretical flaws of schemes.

I know I'm now saying another theoretical ****, but I believe I can get high place in single POs just with my rope skills. All I need is to finish season on 1st-2nd place, then always pick TTRR/Roper/Hysteria (I will probably lose Elite and T17 to most players ). Considering there won't be huge crate rape, in hysteria I have good chances vs Random00 compared to Elite. I mean I will lose Elite 100%, but hysteria... maybe not!

[DarkOne]

Why doesn't anyone see the sentences where I suggest that let hysteria have its own league or lets modify the scheme?

Wow, dude. I've told you at least 4 times to DO something, which included CREATING AN ALTERNATIVE, HOSTING CUPS/TOURNEYS, HOSTING FUNNERS WITH THIS ALTERNATIVE. Perhaps you will read it if I write in caps?

The alternative could include rules, RS with worm select instead of fixed turn order, random turn order, anything, just make a damn effort.

[Kaleu]

Nah D1, don't encourage people to make new schemes, nothing can replace Hysteria, it won't be considered hysteria if it's exced more than 1s turn...