Darkone or someone else maybe.

[franz]

avi, I might consider 'crates determining games' if people actually played their best in "alot of games" as you say or "thousands of replays" as Komo says.  mistakes determine games waaay more than crates ever do.

Komo defends himself by saying that "theres tons of proof out there if you can be bothered to look lol", but seriously, go look at as many roper replays as you want.  Any time you think it's crate rape determining the game, I'll point out where you screwed up and didn't play your best.

[TheKomodo]

franz why are you so close minded about this?

There is nothing wrong with admitting theres a bit of luck in WA, for more or less every scheme.

I have seen so many games, roper and wxw where on the last couple turns when both teams/players are evenly matched, both playing very good, but one player has played "better" than the other, by not making as many mistakes, the better player of that game gets a very bad crate, and can't reach it in time, and then the other player takes the lead and wins within 1-2 shots.

I know for a fact alot of people know this can happen, has happened, and will more than likely happen again, it's not an everygame occurance, and yes I do know that 8-9/10 games the better player will win regardless, but sometimes, a bad crate CAN messup a game, and it's a shame if you can't admit this, we don't need you to admit it either way, because I for one have witnessed it, and I know how Ropers and WxW work and worms physics and what anyone is capable of achieving as much as you do.

People, including myself, can whine about bad crates as much as we want, but at the end of the day, the anger doesn't last long and it's all fun in the end, after all, it would be boring if there wasn't a bit of luck now and again, it's what makes things random now and again

[MonkeyIsland]

Getting crate raped sure will make you angry, but as franz said, I myself have never seen one single roper game that you do absolutely no mistakes and still lose. On the other side I've seen a lot of games which the game evens out the crate rape.

[franz]

komo, I'm not really that close minded, you should know this about me ;p  like you, I am willing to argue, so try not to mix up the two.

again, you've "seen so many games", well then show me one?  someone like you who likes to prove a point shouldn't have much trouble finding at least one game, right?

one thing I notice people doing is only focusing on that one bad crate at the end of the game, when really you have to view the game as a whole.  sometimes the result of a match can be traced all the way back to many turns in the beginning when everything didn't quite work out.  so don't automatically assume it's just a single crate's fault at the end of a game  

[TheKomodo]

I love the fact you are willing to argue, and you do it so level-headed

I don't think you are fully realising the point I am trying to make, when a game is level, both players playing equal, for example, they both miss 2 shots each, then 1 player gets a really bad crate and the following player gets an easy crate and ends up like 90hp - 20hp, are you trying to tell me this isn't really really unlucky and you don't feel crate raped? Lol.

You don't really see alot of ropers where NO mistakes are made on the kind of maps I am talking about.

As for your games, I am too lazy to look them out, considering 85+ % of my replays are all BnG it's be very hard to find roper games, let alone roper games where i've seen crate rape, however if I ever come across a game in future, and I remember, damn right i'll show you

[franz]

I definitely hear you and what you're saying, just realize that "both players playing equal" and "both players playing their best" are completely different things.  sure, if they are both playing equally mediocre, then one bad crate can make one player ahead, but in the end, you can only blame yourself for playing mediocre in the first place.  even playing "good" often doesn't cut it, you have to play your best if you want the best chance to win.

[TheKomodo]

2 players playing there best, never miss and 1 bad crate - crate rape and can cost a game.

2 players playing equal, no matter how and 1 bad crate at the end - crate rape and can cost the game.

[franz]

2 players playing there best, never miss and 1 bad crate - crate rape and can cost a game.

^ this basically never happens.  nearly every single game has some form of mistake in it, and I'll believe this until you show me replays proving otherwise.

2 players playing equal, no matter how and 1 bad crate at the end - crate rape and can cost the game.

again, playing equally bad as someone is no excuse, even if 1 bad crate at the end breaks the equal balance. you only have yourself to blame for playing bad in the first place.

[TheKomodo]

If it basically never happens, then why even bother using this as your excuse against crate rape? To me you are using your own defense against yourself.

I didn't say playing equally bad, I said playing equally good, no one can never make mistakes in anything, this is called being human, I really don't agree with your defense, after playing this game for 10+ years people still make mistakes in every single scheme, so if that is the only defense you have, then I rest my case because either way, crates can still decide the outcome lol.

But, like I have already said, the better player will usually win, without a doubt, but crate rape DOES happen.

* I never said playing equally good either, I just said playing equal, although I meant in a good way, least you know this now *

[nino]

38C at beach today  

edit: forgot to wear my glasses

[franz]

So since two people playing mistake-free almost never happens, I can't argue that mistakes determine games waaay more than crates ever do?

I know you didn't say equally bad, but it doesn't matter.. equally 'anything' good/bad/whatever, if it isn't your best, you can only blame yourself.

no one can never make mistakes in anything, this is called being human, I really don't agree with your defense, after playing this game for 10+ years people still make mistakes in every single scheme, so if that is the only defense you have, then I rest my case because either way, crates can still decide the outcome lol.

you say you don't agree with my defense, but your first comment means you misunderstood my argument. you talking about mistakes makes me think you can understand my point about mistakes determining games way more than crates.

true "no one can never make mistakes in anything, this is called being human" but there is another thing that is called being human ->  not taking responsibility for your own actions.  So you lost a game?  It can be human nature to blame forces outside yourself (hello crate rape!), but take responsibility for your own gameplay, play your best, and make it your goal to play mistake-free (just because it almost never happens doesn't mean you can't make it a goal).  cheers

[DarkOne]

crate rape is part of ropers. Period.

Ever heard of AireFresco (cl2k days)? I've always been pretty pitiful at ropers, but AF was far worse than me.
Yet somehow, he's managed to promote to div1, even though ropers were the most popular scheme at the time and there was a 40 games limit.

So to get back on topic (what was it again? Are there enough people who'd like me to start this up again?

If so, it'll most certainly have to wait a bit since I'm sick right now.

[Madden]

So to get back on topic (what was it again? Are there enough people who'd like me to start this up again?

No. Just close this thread and make Franz king of the world.

[franz]

lol Madden

darkone, love your one-liner, emphasized with "Period."  it's like you ended the whole argument single handedly with awesome proof and authority  

sorry for the derail, go ahead with the awards if you all like! cheers again

[TheKomodo]

Ok franz, you were not arguing that mistakes determine games more than crates do, you were implying there is more or less no such thing as crate rape and you have never seen a game that crate rape has determined a game.

So you have just started an entirely different debate which I will not argue with, because mistakes do determine games more than crate rape, you are right there