The Big Religion/God Debate

[Free]

@HHC

What do you mean by 'frequencies'?

Well, it's like a radio station, you turn the knob and the frequency and therefore channel changes. If you are feeling low energy state as in "lazy", you can't be "super pumped" at the same time for example.. therefore you only experience what you're tuned into. On one of my trips when I drank Ayahuasca, I could see with my eyelids closed (even put my hands in front of my eyes to make sure) the same space I could see with my eyes open, and it wasn't just "me tripping balls" as I could describe the room and the changes my girlfriend (she was fully sober) tried to make in there so we could "prove" it wasn't just my imagination. I was tuned into frequency that scientists would think is not humanly possible probably. It's a common thing to have an objective trip (as in others experience/see the same thing you do) with Ayahuasca (its possible with other substances also I'm sure). I believe that when you switch dimensions from 3d to higher ones, you are able to experience a whole new range of frequencies that your not able to experience with 3d alone. When you dream, I believe you are not bound by 3d reality.

I reckon that mankind has a very limited sense of what reality really is. We operate by a 'mere' 5 senses, surely we miss out on a lot of things. But there's science..
So let me be straightforward: what is it that science is missing according to you? Which 'frequencies' are they overlooking?
Are they frequencies that could potentially be unlocked? As in, are they scientifically 'measurable'?

I reckon mankind has a very limited sense of reality, but I don't think this has always been the case, I believe "mankind" had way more information back in the regarding energy and manipulation of energy than we collectively have nowadays.

Science is the building block of information but I'm the first one to say I don't fully trust science as it's still very limited on some cases. There are a handful of scientists (Thomas Campbell for example) who also explore the inner workings of reality as well and are able to mesh it well with understanding of "socially and culturally" accepted science nowadays. My understanding of hardcore scientists is that they are not very "happy" persons as one could say (compared to Shamans for example, how they appreciate nature and life as a gift), it's like they miss out on EMOTIONS quite much when their brain is fully occupied by the logical side and trying to rationalize everything into a box. Not every scientist is like this ofcourse, but I feel like it's the most common thing.

Since "we" wanted to experience this Human Experience, the biggest thing we miss out as other life forms is EMOTIONS. Energy and universe flows, we should flow too and not "box" everything up and put a label on it. Improving the state of mankind through science is never a bad thing (sometimes it can be, look how much we pollute our planet because of we want to have more of everything), but more than that I think we should focus WAY MORE on the quality of the human experience.

Life was a playground as a kid, and that's how it was meant to be.

Everything that is/was/will be experienced, has its origin on the ABSOLUTE CORE TRUTH (we are energy) and it's only our MAN MADE LABELS that give meaning to things that we perceive with our senses.. so nothing is really dualistic in the true nature of experiencing reality. It's all pure truth, whatever happens.. whether you play a game of worms or whether you die. Nothing actually changes, it's just your dualistic point of view which might think otherwise. <- This is key point to understand IMO.

That's a very odd comparison... worms vs death. Can you elaborate on it a little more (as you say it's a key point). I guess 'you' (as in 'energy') remain the same after death? What changes over a game of worms then?  

Hahaha! Figured I'd use an example we all could appreciate Nothing changes, that's the point. Game of elite has the same "impact" on your core being as death has if you look at universe from non-dualistic point of view. Yes, "your" energy stays the same, only the frequency has changed.

I believe that when we started to separate from collective/unite consciousness to singular consciousness we lost touch to our true CORE self.. which I believe to be everlasting (as we/consciousness/YOUniversum is all just energy that vibrate on different frequencies).

When did we lose this? At the act of birth? Or during childhood?

I believe that during childhood.

You can create/experience ANYTHING you want (astral travel/lucid dreaming) without the limits of your physical body.. and these are just the frequencies that we can experience with "brain-consciousness".. and in the end.. you have created this whole human experience yourself.. your pretty damn good.

Do you do lucid dreaming too? What's your method?

I used to be big into lucid dreaming (I know NAiL is also as we talked about it) and I noticed I couldn't force myself to go out of body when I was just trying to go to sleep, the vibrations felt really uncomfortable and I had problems with other methods also. There's an easy to way lucid dream which I use quite often. The main thing for a successful lucid dream is to have you body as relaxed as possible but so your mind is still alert. Easy way to achieve this is to wake yourself up from middle of sleep, I used to have an alarm clock waking me up 2-4 hours before I had to be awake, this enabled for the body be already on the relaxed state but mind to be fairly alert, then I'd just go back to sleep and I almost always had very vivid dreams and with practice you're able to lucid dream also. You need to tell your subconscious mind that you want to be lucid by repeating this your subconscious throughout the day, most importantly by the time you go to sleep. Then if your one lucky son of a biatch, you become aware that you are dreaming.

This said, I'm not an expert by any means when it comes to lucid dreams and visiting really high astral planes, so you should do your own research. Google is your friend and you find many forums dedicated to lucid dreaming. I've only had couple of OBE's and bunch of lucid dreams. I lost the ability to lucid dream or to even remember my dreams when I smoked weed every day, now that I've been taking a break from smoking for almost couple of weeks now, my dreams as back and man they are really vivid! Last night I was the bodyguard of the French President and we had an awesome time getting drunk and partying, met with my ex-gf and hooked up and last but not least, had sex with Sasha Grey! My dreams are most vivid after I've woken up just for awhile and then gone back to sleep. Haven't been lucid in these past few weeks yet, but it's been really close. I'm sure it's just a few subconscious suggestions away

Would you consider this dimension a 'dream' of our own making?

Tough one, I'm not sure what to make of it. In this "normal" dimension we are able to feel emotions but in dreams we're able to do anything we want.. and we only give meaning and emotions to the dream when we wake up. That said, everything we can experience is the "pure truth" so no dimension is less "real" than the other. Life is pretty damn amazing.

I kinda feel DMT-trips are a lot different than dreams are they not? I've never had a dream that sparked visions anything similar to what DMT-users seem to report (or near death experiences which are said to be caused by DMT being produced/released).

Yeah they are a lot different, DMT when smoked is a realllllly intense way to try it out and it blows you THE FUG OUT so far away to "space" faster than your mind is able to comprehend. With Ayahuasca though, the journey is more "mellow" and it really does become a dreamlike state. Common term used among experienced Ayahuasca drinkers is "dreaming". Ayahuasca and DMT is different thing also, with Ayahuasca you use other plant materials with the tea also to induce more "spirit guidance" into the journey and this is my experience also. What amazed me the most with DMT visuals is how multi-dimensional and repetitive they can be, patterns inside patterns inside patterns inside patterns with precision that is mind-boggling. Nothing like I've ever experienced with Mushrooms or LSD. I also understand how those with no experience with the substance wonder if it's just a personal hallucination but ONCE you've done it, you are sure you were connected to a SOURCE. Words just cannot describe it.

Did you take this up in Amsterdam? Lol

Nope, I was very blessed to have this chemist friend here in Finland who I call "Urban Shaman" as he truly f@#!ed around with consciousness, he made me my first Ayahuasca brews and also thought me how to make it so I could do it on my own, I've had under 10 Ayahuasca journeys and I haven't done any psychedelics except mushrooms once for almost 4 years now.

Cool though, I've read stuff on DMT before (and it's spiritual qualities). I still havent made up my mind though whether the things you 'see' when you're on DMT really hold any objective truth or meaning, or whether they are merely illusions.
I mean, there's lots of things people see when they do drugs and even basic alcohol can make you experience reality pretty differently than normal. How can you tell whether this drug is truly sparking visions of reality?

Everything you experience is the reality once you look at it from non-dualistic point of view.

And I guess I'm also dying to hear that this 0-2 vs mm of tonight was but an illusion

Hahah, sorry m8, mm is above gods.

@Komo

Human beings are born with 2 fears only, fear of falling and fear of loud sounds, everything else gets instilled to us by surrounding reality (not sure if this even answers to what you were wondering but just throwing it out there).

As a human I wouldn't even WANT to know the WHOLE truth as I feel it would make my human experience become really black and white, what's there to explore if you know what's in front of you.. so yes this is all just another theory.. but I've been always drawn to "mystical" things and I really enjoy talking about subjects like these.

Edit: so many grammar errors, hopefully I got most of them out.

[Aerox]

So you and your girlfriend tripped on the same shit. Like both of you started seeing Smurfs at the same time, how could that be? How could two different people claim to be seeing the same magic at the same time? Must prove Smurfs exist.

Too bad your brain might be tricking you into thinking you're seeing them or have seen them just because the other person is claiming he is seeing them.

There's a lot of psychological theories on the subject of telepathy (hormonal work, etc), what they conclude? Telepathy is but an illusion but it's impossible by definition. Very possible to unconscionably fake it though, to the point you actually believe it's happening, specially with the use of narcotics.

Surely a person like you Freeman, not naive by conception, can understand that whilst your experience feels really real, it's still chemicals affecting your brain, and if the narcotics industry was advanced enough, we would already have God pills. Eat one, realize Christianity was always right. I mean, why not?

edit: one could argue these so called shamans aren't very happy themselves either (in reference to scientists not being happy people themselves), what with having to experience a different reality, which they claim to be real, to enjoy the actual one?

[HHC]

Thanks for taking your time Free, was a very interesting post 

Can't think of anything to ask you right now, I'll probably dive deeper into this, with the help of my best friend Google 

[DarkOne]

And so I think we're missing clues to tell another end to physic.

What do you base this on? Einstein based this feeling on Newtonian physics because Mercury's orbit didn't add up. Even a brilliant mind like his needed more than just a gut feeling.

If you don't understand what I mean with that, then I give up, I don't know how to make you realize my point...  

The only point I can get from what you're saying is that all knowledge is useless until we know everything because we're missing a viewpoint and therefore don't know anything.

Did you notice I said I don't take it as a basis ?
I saw something not prooven, so I can't, but I also can't ignore it.

Example: During a fight, you think having found the weakness of your opponent, what do you do ?
You rush on it ? Even if it was false and it leads you to death ?
No, you keep it in mind until getting a proof of it (or at least another occasion to analyze it).
That's what I mean about magic: I saw it, but I can't believe in it. BUT, I can't ignore it in case it was true.

Does that mean that if you're in a fight, you think there's a weakness and no evidence reaches your perception of that weakness - do you keep waiting for that proof to pop up for years and years until evidence finally arises? I have bad news for you then - you'll have lost the fight before the evidence arises.

Nop, I just watched that documentary and waited for that gigantic particle accelerator (they said about 5 years to construct it).
But ok, you get the point here.  

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/11/neutrinos_not_faster_than_light/
Must have been a very quickly made documentary if they come up with new facts

Then I'll tell you the anecdote (well, I have already told it, but, interesting enough imo):

My father used to have an unkown desease which made him gets tumors (benign or not, we don't know, it was just "balls") randomly appear on his body and then randomly dissapear to go somewhere else, from feet to head. He went to many doctors and no ones found what it was.
He went to a magnetisor, and after some meeting, it totally dissappeared and never came back again.

What do you think of it ?
Imo, it's just psycologic. I mean, he healed the desease on his own: seeing the magnetiser was just the trigger (yeah, you know what I think about human capabilities   ).
As a doctor, do you have anything to tell about it ? Don't you agree it's very strange ? Plus it was not hallucination, otherwise hundreds of person constantly did the same hallucination at a different time.

Now who's jumping to conclusions? You're asking me to make an assumption on the diagnosis based on sketchy descriptions (there's entire book cases written about discerning one type of lump from another) and then to make an assumption on an unproven treatment. For all I know, your dad had a self limiting disease. There's plenty of those around, I can't exclude that possibility from your little anecdote.

Were they regular bumps? What's the colour? What was their consistency? Did they contain fluid? How long were they on their location? Were they accompanied by any other symptoms (fever? joint ache? shortness of breath?)? Medical history? Maximum size of the lumps? Growth rate? Were they clustered or spread diffusely? Any other skin lesions? Did they appear on skin only or also on mucous membranes (eg in his mouth)? How long did he have these symptoms? Were they recurring? When did he start having them? Didn't they ever take a biopsy of one of those tumors?

[Aerox]

It's certainly lupus

[DarkOne]

[Free]

So you and your girlfriend tripped on the same shit. Like both of you started seeing Smurfs at the same time, how could that be? How could two different people claim to be seeing the same magic at the same time? Must prove Smurfs exist.

Too bad your brain might be tricking you into thinking you're seeing them or have seen them just because the other person is claiming he is seeing them.

There's a lot of psychological theories on the subject of telepathy (hormonal work, etc), what they conclude? Telepathy is but an illusion but it's impossible by definition. Very possible to unconscionably fake it though, to the point you actually believe it's happening, specially with the use of narcotics.

Surely a person like you Freeman, not naive by conception, can understand that whilst your experience feels really real, it's still chemicals affecting your brain, and if the narcotics industry was advanced enough, we would already have God pills. Eat one, realize Christianity was always right. I mean, why not?

edit: one could argue these so called shamans aren't very happy themselves either (in reference to scientists not being happy people themselves), what with having to experience a different reality, which they claim to be real, to enjoy the actual one?

My gf was sober. I understand why you have hard time believing though, no worries

[Aerox]

Of course you understand why I have a hard time believing it, I mean, you come here claiming to have experienced telepathy (amongst many others things) with you girl friend after taking sense altering narcotics (she didn't, doesn't matter)... doesn't take a genius to realize why anyone would have a hard time believing your claims just because. I mean, I totally believe you were under the impression that you were having telepathy, I'm only saying, you're just believing you were, no matter how sure you tell us you were, you cannot replicate it in front of an audience unless you're using a trick to fool them. You simply can't.

You're using a substance for god's sake. I've experienced most of what you describe using different drugs. Why do you think there's so many narcotics called the "God's drug", because people experience shit like this all the time. I could walk around the house with my eyes closed under LSD. Some drugs enhance the possibilities of your brain connections, you haven't discovered Atlantis in that respect.

There's a big difference between discovering abilities you don't normally have, sober, by the use of a sense altering substance and actually believing an hallucinogens or trance state is more real than life itself. But I guess these Urban Shamans need to make a living just like anyone else and Dealers doesn't sound half as cool.

Dunno if it's something big in Finnland or whatever but it certainly won't be the first nor the last sect to be based around a certain narcotic.

[Free]

Yyyeah I won't even bother. I respect your view on the matter though.

[Abnaxus]

As opposed to me not already knowing?

We cannot prove the nonexistence of anything, therefore, anything could exist. However, here we are, focusing on the figure of God as opposed to more interesting things that could exist, like Elves. The only reason one can get away talking about certain magic (Christian magic) is culture, history and fear for death. Face it, become a free man.

edit: and if you're one of those agnostics of sorts, it's the same thing except culture and history don't play a role, fear for death does, hope or desire for the existence of something greater than you and other very simply explained sociological traits. It only takes a poor kid to desire magic existed for it to become recorded in his brain, he only has to say it and it will retro-aliment for ever and ever thanks to the approval and constant repetition of their dogma by people who share this same desire, and with this sectary procedure, we have people that believe in magic and are not slapped in the face by common sense because democracy enhances it.

But the pattern is clear, either the existence of God is proven in the next 30 years or religion will be seen as fanaticism and be embraced only by minorities (regarding numbers) and freaks. We'll have stronger drugs though, so we'll always have people like Free.

I didn't pretty understood your post, but I'll tell you something (maybe it will help): I'm atheist and don't believe in god.
And I used to be one of the most realistic man ... until I lived what I lived.

There's no need to resort to calling anyone dumb Abnaxus.

A guy talking as Ramone did to "answer" my post is just a dumb guy.
And he's still digging himself by telling my argument was based on my knowledge and not on what he just said (I love how he makes me say what I never did, and that's what I dislike in him: lawyer).

What do you base this on? Einstein based this feeling on Newtonian physics because Mercury's orbit didn't add up. Even a brilliant mind like his needed more than just a gut feeling.

I can't tell. Sorry to have brought this up.

The only point I can get from what you're saying is that all knowledge is useless until we know everything because we're missing a viewpoint and therefore don't know anything.

Yes and no, you went too far.

Does that mean that if you're in a fight, you think there's a weakness and no evidence reaches your perception of that weakness - do you keep waiting for that proof to pop up for years and years until evidence finally arises? I have bad news for you then - you'll have lost the fight before the evidence arises.

Can't I keep it in mind while trying to find another weakness ?
And btw, I never said I would be passive meanwhile.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/11/neutrinos_not_faster_than_light/
Must have been a very quickly made documentary if they come up with new facts

I really love the links you provide, but I'm not good enough in english to greatly understand it... I need subtitles or it to be in french...
Thanks anyway, I like your attention. :/

Now who's jumping to conclusions? You're asking me to make an assumption on the diagnosis based on sketchy descriptions (there's entire book cases written about discerning one type of lump from another) and then to make an assumption on an unproven treatment. For all I know, your dad had a self limiting disease. There's plenty of those around, I can't exclude that possibility from your little anecdote.

It's just an anecdote, not a conclusion. About the psycologic, it's just my opinion, I have zero proof about it but my belief.

What do you mean by self limiting disease ?

Were they regular bumps? What's the colour? What was their consistency? Did they contain fluid? How long were they on their location? Were they accompanied by any other symptoms (fever? joint ache? shortness of breath?)? Medical history? Maximum size of the lumps? Growth rate? Were they clustered or spread diffusely? Any other skin lesions? Did they appear on skin only or also on mucous membranes (eg in his mouth)? How long did he have these symptoms? Were they recurring? When did he start having them? Didn't they ever take a biopsy of one of those tumors?

I can give you the answer if you want them (just need to ask my dad: I can't remember myself since I was young).

Of course you understand why I have a hard time believing it, I mean, you come here claiming to have experienced telepathy (amongst many others things) with you girl friend after taking sense altering narcotics (she didn't, doesn't matter)...

Some of us didn't take narcotics.

What do you mean by 'frequencies'?

Well, it's like a radio station, you turn the knob and the frequency and therefore channel changes. If you are feeling low energy state as in "lazy", you can't be "super pumped" at the same time for example.. therefore you only experience what you're tuned into. On one of my trips when I drank Ayahuasca, I could see with my eyelids closed (even put my hands in front of my eyes to make sure) the same space I could see with my eyes open, and it wasn't just "me tripping balls" as I could describe the room and the changes my girlfriend (she was fully sober) tried to make in there so we could "prove" it wasn't just my imagination. I was tuned into frequency that scientists would think is not humanly possible probably. It's a common thing to have an objective trip (as in others experience/see the same thing you do) with Ayahuasca (its possible with other substances also I'm sure). I believe that when you switch dimensions from 3d to higher ones, you are able to experience a whole new range of frequencies that your not able to experience with 3d alone. When you dream, I believe you are not bound by 3d reality.

Thanks god, I found someone who believe in frequencies !
I was believing it before talking to my dad, and he confessed me he was believing it too while telling me 2 anecdotes he lived about it (and without narcotics too).
We think a family can communicate through certain frequencies (genetic reasons ? Dunno).
It has never been said it was frequencies, but 2 people far away feeling something special to the situation one is living is a quite known thing.
Could we share our experiences ?

About lucid dreams, I used to have many of them when I was young, and not on purpose.

PS: Talking about dreams, maybe you could help me D1 (since you know pretty much things).
There was a dream I did twice in my life, and it's the strangest I have and probably will ever live. And I never understood the meaning of it.
All I can remember from it is the grains, and when awoke I was shouting "the grains, the grains, they all felt. All grains felt".
I was lost, totally lost, my head was bursting as hell while anesthetized, I was like stuck between dream and real life.
I was shouting as if I was dying (for real, I hope I'll never live this again (well, in fact I want just to understand it. But knowledge > pain)).
Do you know what it can be ? What it means ? Or anyone I could talk to (to?) understand it ?

[DarkOne]

Don't let your brain frequency (or rather the amplitude) go too high That's called epilepsy.

[Abnaxus]

Dude, all I said since then can be explained by epilepsy (absences, hallucinations (even if once we were 2), winces, etc...).
Maybe not why I sometimes "die of heat" and my body is warm as hell, but for the rest yes (Edit: my bad, it can be the aura).

I've never read anything about it (until now), but I lived and live 90% of the symptoms frequently.
Except maybe the thing with the light flashing hard.
Doesn't mean I suffer of Epilepsy, but that's a start. I have something to search on.
Thanks !

[Aerox]

And I used to be one of the most realistic man ... until I lived what I lived.

If I had a cent every time I heard an agnostic use this excuse to gain credibility...

Just because you cannot comprehend somethings happening to you and your loved ones doesn't mean you have to start fantasizing about it being magic, it only means you don't fully understand yourself and the science of your body, but then again, no one does to a full extent. Some people prefer to live in uncertainty until further evidence appears, other choose the easy way out: it must have been god, nothing to worry about.

[Abnaxus]

Some people prefer to live in uncertainty until further evidence appears, other choose the easy way out: it must have been god, nothing to worry about.

Yes and no.
Anyway, you think I'm the second part, but sorry, I'm from the first.

[Cueshark]

"Another substance used in South America, especially in the Amazon basin, is a drink called ayahuasca, caapi, or yajé, which is produced from the stem bark of the vines Banisteriopsis caapi and B. inebrians. Indians who use it claim that its virtues include healing powers and the power to induce clairvoyance, among others.

Another method of divination was to drink ayahuasca, a narcotic that had profound effects on the central nervous system. This was believed to enable one to communicate with the supernatural powers."

----------

Ok, so this substance is widely acknowledged to produce some interesting sensations and effects.

@Free.  So you took this stuff and experienced what you believe to be kind of remote viewing or something.  Seeing with your eyes closed.  But you actually attempted to apply some scientific controls to account for the possibility that it was just in your imagination.

The controls you applied was that your girlfriend changed something in the room and with your eyes closed you worked out what it was.

After succeeding in this challenge you have concluded that there definitely wasn't a boring mundane explanation for this.  Instead, you literally saw through closed eyes because of reaching a higher plane/dimension through this substance?

Am I right so far?