Faith can bring people together.
So did anti-semitism in Germany in the early 20th century.
Bringing people together is nice and all that, but if you do that for the wrong reason, it's still a bloody bad thing.
The christian worldview is far more than just a set of silly rules & beliefs, it erects an entire universe that is both of this world and outside of this world.
...but then you'd first have to assume that something even exists outside of this world, which is a pretty outrageous claim to make. If I were to make that claim about something that is not described in religious texts, then people would seriously doubt my sanity. Or as Sam Harris put it:
There is nothing the atheists have that can match something like that.
No spiritual home for people, no shared view of the world and beyond.
And that to me seems pretty vital for a healthy society.
Like ropa said: look at Sweden.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_homicide_rate_in_Stockholm.svgThis is not proof that atheism is good for a society, but it does go straight against the claim that it's bad for a society.
People may still behave in an atheist society, but the sense of union will be much weaker and people will mostly go about their things whichever way they see fit. .. That or search their mystical union & salvation in secular religions like national-socialism, communism or any other utopian movement that ultimately ends up in massmurder.
Define mystical union if you please. A lot of atheists also don't believe in spirituality. I don't believe in spirituality - it simply makes no sense to me.
I'm not sure what you mean by salvation either - Usually when I hear/read that word, it's in the context of christian salvation - which is basically god saving people from their punishments which were dealt to them by god in the first place.
National socialism and communism are not religions, they are idiologies. The first is a social ideology (though I think we can all agree it's a morally bankrupt one) and the second one is socio-economical. No religion involved.
Secular religion is a contradiction in terms:
Secularity (adjective form secular,[1] from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal") is the state of being separate from religion, or not being exclusively allied with or against any particular religion.
You know exactly what is true and what isn't?
Pretty damn sure at least 20% of your scientific views will be proven wrong in the future.
I don't think anyone makes the claim that they
know everything there is to know - except the most religious people, of course: ("God
will..." "After you die, you
will...".
I don't see why believing in God is harmful per se. Even if it turns out to be a false belief.
Do you have proof that people who are christian suffer more than those who aren't?
I think a bigger problem could be that non-christians suffer from christianity, non-muslims suffer from islam etcetera. I refer you to Marcus Brigstocke's rant I linked to earlier in this thread.
I can only speak for myself... but ae, I'm envious of people who believe in God, cause my complete and utter nihilistic views on life & afterlife are anything but a blessing.
When I look at your posts, I think you're more disappointed in god than that you don't believe in him/her/it/them/whatever. Nihilism is not a logical result of atheism. If there's no god that determines the value of something, then that job is up to you. Nihilism is what happens when you don't do that job.
I know that what I do in my life is going to be forgotten when I die. Maybe not immediately, it could be a lot longer (though I highly doubt it), but I don't really care about being remembered. What matters is what I make of my life now - to me, at least.
You are trying to convert an immaterial asset to material means.
You cannot put a price on things like hope, unity & spiritual salvation.
You assume atheists have no hope or unity. And you assume they think they have spirits and that they need salvation. This quote kind of adds to my idea that you're a christian that's just disappointed with god.
It will never happen. You are overlooking the basic human need for spirituality. Basic questions of life and death & human ethics will always be asked and science will never be able to answer them all. There will always be room (and need) for spirituality and thereby, for religion.
You keep speaking of spirituality, and coupling it with religion. But you say you're not religious, but you do believe in spiritualism. Make up your mind, man!
It would be lost as soon as you put it into a museum.
Religion has to be experienced. It's not primarily used as a theory to explain how the universe works. It's a way of life, an EXPERIENCE. Without experience there is no understanding.
You sound like the "my little TOE" guy. And the guy in the Sam Harris video.
leverages of power over lower classes or over women or whatever, i.e. what they actually are.
How does this in any way apply to the teachings of Christ? or Buddha, or Muhammed, or any great prophet?
These men were noted for questioning or even overthrowing ruling structures & classes and promoting the equality of every man (and to some extent) women.
I think you missed the bits that say "god is the only true god and no god comes before him".
Religions necessarily promote the ruling of a particular structure over the other. For Christianity, it's the church or god. For islam, it's allah and Muhammed. For jews, it's their god and their church. For hinduists, it's Krishna. Etcetera, etcetera.
You can say the religion was perverted or corrupted by emperors & popes, but you can't possibly say these religions are corrupted by nature.
Read the bible or the quran. A lot of it contains murder condoned by god. Stoning, hanging etcetera, it's all there.
There is absolutely nothing in what you say that shows that you consider other systems of belief to be equal to your own. You see them as obsolete, foolish mindsets that hamper any human progress. You only care for them as artifacts of a time long gone.
I have not seen any post from religious people that respect other religions or atheism as equal systems of beliefs. Nothing wrong with that - after all, there's a reason someone follows their belief system. Wally probably thinks his the christian belief system is superior to the islamic belief system. As long as he doesn't go around killing muslims or jews because of that, there's no harm in it. I assume that's how he feels about muslims or jews or hinduists or even atheists the same way.
If you were more open-minded you would see that christianity has played a very healthy role in politics in the West in the last two centuries, and that the real dangers actually came from the mindset of the Enlightenment.
Nope, other way around. Secularism has made people pick and choose which parts of the bible are worth following and which aren't.
There's living according to the bible if you will.
When you consider mankind as ultimately good & consider reason to be the ultimate & only source of progress in this world... you're bound to end up on a very dangerous road. Because if this is true, then anything that doesn't appeal to 'reason' becomes a blockade to human progress. Some like you might resort to discours then to try to persuade the others to join the 'light'-side, but many have also resorted to violence.
You are correct. Atheism doesn't do this, though. It only says one thing about one subject: there is no god. What you describe does describe the crusades pretty accurately, though.
The communist paradise could only be achieved by destroying the 'bourgeios'-class, or basically everyone with a 'bourgeios'-mindset, whether they were aristocrats or farmers.. it didn't matter, they were all seen as roadblocks to human progress... and thus, had to be wiped out.
Likewise, the Third Reich could only be achieved if all people who weren't of the right blood, or the right mind or who suffered from all-too-human illnesses were eradicated.
The church on the other hand has always stuck to the doctrine that mankind is inherently 'broken' since the fall of Adam. That might seem a very pessimist idea, but it has saved the christian world from ever going on the same road as the modern secular religions have.
Christianity is all about that people who follow god are better - only they are worth saving, after all, right?
The christian utopia is not of this world, and cannot be brought about by human beings, only by God. And yes, there have been sects who thought they could bring closer the coming of Christ by acting all repressive, but the mainstream has always embraced the world as it was. Imperfect, but ruled & sanctified by God.
It's no wonder the church was one of the biggest enemies of both communism & nazism and was brutally repressed in both states.
Really? I thought Hitler abused the church to get people to follow him.
Meanwhile, political wise, the church opted for corporatism (cooperation between the working class & the capitalists) and christian-democracy (decentralised government + focus on human rights). It's very fortunate for us that they did, cause without their support for democracy I don't think we'd be living in free societies right now.
Again, you have secularism to thank for that.