Remove bazooka 1st rule from Roper. 'Who be against?'

[Senator]

Let's fix Roper

The bazooka 1st rule (or mine/nade delay) originates from W2 Roper (no CBA) and I think it's stupid to have it in WA Roper. WA Roper is played with CBA rule so bazooka 1st gives an advantage to the player who starts 1st and makes the 1st turns more luck based than the following turns.

The 1st player gets usually easier bazooka turn because he starts from the top and hides at the bottom. Roper is played on harder maps these days so the 2nd player is very dependent on crate luck on his 1st turn. I would rather give the 1st player an easy 1st attack (with mine/nade) than leave the 2nd player completely dependent on crate luck.

For those who don't believe in the advantage bazooka 1st gives:

Spoiler! View

Bazooka turn success (successful attack - shot through wall / little damage to own worm too - fail)

dibz
Start 1st : 70% - 18% - 12% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 30% - 28% - 42% (50 games)

ZiPpO
Start 1st : 60% - 18% - 22% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 20% - 12% - 68% (50 games)

Lukz
Start 1st : 44% - 24% - 32% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 26% - 22% - 52% (50 games)

daiNa
Start 1st : 42% - 30% - 28% (50 games)
Start 2nd: 36% - 22% - 42% (50 games)

Combined
Start 1st : 54% - 23% - 24% (200 games)
Start 2nd: 28% - 21% - 51% (200 games)

Games where the opponent failed to hide or where the 2nd player started on top were excluded.

If you start 2nd and tele on top, you give the 1st player an easy zooka attack while your chance is only like 60-70% (if you are dibz or ZiPpO).

That's not all W2 Roper has more powerful bazooka (4 stars instead of 3) and I think it should be introduced in WA Roper for the following reasons:

- 'bazooka 1st' remains a thing as players are encouraged to go for a ~49 dmg bazooka shot instead of a mine/nade
- it discourages hiding on top because bazooka attack is easy on top
- easy crate turns become harder because players should try knock+bazooka instead of just dropping a mine. The better roper should be able to use bazooka more often.

Bazooka attacks depend on crate luck and wind too but overall I think the scheme would be more balanced this way.

Before: 1st player makes 44 dmg with bazooka while the 2nd player may not be able to attack at all
After: 1st player makes 49 dmg with bazooka while the 2nd player may have to resort to mine/nade

[ANO]

add a poll sista so that we can vote yes!

[Aerox]

the logic in your argumentation is partial, ergo, not logic at all.

zook first is there to give the player going second a higher chance of avoiding full damage by taking a hard hide (which should be easy if we trust you when you say maps are harder now)

Removing this factor makes going first even safer (that's bad for the competitiveness of the scheme)

[theredi]

first no afr in shoppa and now u try to change roper? learn to shot zooka from rope damn noobs really...

[Rabbzz]

I like the idea of encouraging more zook use, but don't think it will change the scheme much. Either way I'm keen to try even just the more power zook.

[Ryan]

the logic in your argumentation is partial, ergo, not logic at all.

zook first is there to give the player going second a higher chance of avoiding full damage by taking a hard hide (which should be easy if we trust you when you say maps are harder now)

Removing this factor makes going first even safer (that's bad for the competitiveness of the scheme)

This.

If you allow the player going first the chance to use mine/grenade those stats would be worse, player one would have nearly 100% successful attack leaving player two 70hp behind with a chance of a harder crate.

[spleen17]

I'm with you on the higher-powered zook, that idea sounds cool. But I am not convinced that those statistics you posted would be too different if you allowed mine / nade on the first turn. 1st player will still get an advantage either way.

You could instead just remove the CBA rule on the first turn, so both players have the opportunity to make a decent zook attack.

[Aerox]

I mean, if you're going to propose a change why not go the whole way?

- Only the worm going first needs to zook first turn.

[Senator]

zook first is there to give the player going second a higher chance of avoiding full damage by taking a hard hide (which should be easy if we trust you when you say maps are harder now)

Removing this factor makes going first even safer (that's bad for the competitiveness of the scheme)

There's a high chance that a good roper makes a successful bazooka attack when he goes 1st. After that there's a high chance that the 2nd player can't attack at all. How's that favorable for the player who goes 2nd? You suggest that the 2nd player should hide in the deepest corner and hope for a hard crate for the opponent "to avoid full damage", then hope for an easy crate to be able to attack at all? As the 2nd player you have to be very lucky to get any advantage from the bazooka 1st rule.

btw, I discussed this topic with your friend Anubis and he said the same:

The changes made to W:A roper like CBA made bazooka first a significant disadvantage for the 2nd player.

If you allow the player going first the chance to use mine/grenade those stats would be worse, player one would have nearly 100% successful attack leaving player two 70hp behind with a chance of a harder crate.

Nah. The 2nd player can place his worm down mid. From there he should be able to attack at least with a mine/nade.

[Aerox]

Down mid? that's terrible. Dunno if you rope but going up from down mid to a far side takes about the same time than going up from a far side to the opposite far side, assuming a normal rope map. You can't just ignore momentum or have a discussion about roping without considering how roping works. Also having to knock a worm eliminates the handicap of starting from the top because it takes around 3 seconds off the timer.

"there's a high chance the 2nd player can't attack at all" - this is made up nonsense, can you elaborate, specially on the "high chance" part?

zook provides more variation (assuming target is in a hard hide), and when there's more variation there are more chances for the better player to come on top: there's many different ways to shoot, there's wind, there's an usual requirement to knock etc...

[spleen17]

Yeah, that is why I say remove CBA on first-turn will go further towards neutralizing this than allowing mine / nade will.

Possible scenarios (assuming neither player fails):

1. Player 1 takes his crate and attacks with zook. Player 2 gets an easy crate and is able to attack Player 1 and hide next to him (match is even).

2. Player 1 takes his crate and attacks. Player 2 gets a hard crate so attacks first and then gets his crate in retreat time, hiding at the other end of the map.  (Slight advantage for player 1 as his second turn is easier)

3. Player 1 gets a very hard crate so attacks first and gets his crate in retreat time, hiding at the other end of the map.  (Player 2 gets a slight advantage as his first turn is easier)


So there is no health advantage either way. If you keep CBA but add mine/nade then Player 1 will have an easier first turn, and PLayer 2 still has the possibility of getting a hard crate and not being able to attack at all, leading to a difference in hp after one turn of the game.

[ANO]

what if only the first player has to use zooka and not the others?! first player has advantage because he can top hide, so he needs a limitation... I think this was Senator's point. 

[Senator]

Down mid? that's terrible. Dunno if you rope but going up from down mid to a far side takes about the same time than going up from a far side to the opposite far side, assuming a normal rope map. You can't just ignore momentum or have a discussion about roping without considering how roping works. Also having to knock a worm eliminates the handicap of starting from the top because it takes around 3 seconds off the timer.

"there's a high chance the 2nd player can't attack at all" - this is made up nonsense, can you elaborate, specially on the "high chance" part?

Sorry, there's a high chance (like 70%) that the 2nd player can't make full damage with bazooka. I could however gather you stats from games where the 2nd player teleported to either side and the "fail" percentage for him would be even higher. That's because in many maps it's easier to climb from the mid than from a side, in some maps the side climb is like a ttrr climb. It's a common tactic for (lame) players to start hiding at mid when they get a lead because they can reach most crates easily from there.

Yeah having to knock eliminates the handicap of starting from the top but at the same time it makes it even harder for the 2nd player to attack.

zook provides more variation (assuming target is in a hard hide), and when there's more variation there are more chances for the better player to come on top: there's many different ways to shoot, there's wind, there's an usual requirement to knock etc...

With 4 star bazooka the better player could get profit in a longer run.

@ANO, ropa

The problem with bazooka 1st for the 1st player only is that some maps have hides where it's nearly impossible to shoot with bazooka.. The 1st player has one turn lead from the start, though.

[ANO]

well... it's still roper, it's the roping scheme where luck plays an important role...

[Ryan]

I don't understand why it is lame to not hide if I gain a lead.
Why should I allow the opponent the chance to beat me if the aim is to win?

Also, 4 star bazooka alone gives player 1 a bigger advantage especially when they get a successful attack first turn.