Played my last game of BnG today

[HHC]

Ty for the test games Komo  

I guess I learned something here. I know you weren't trying too hard, but I think that without notching I would be able to give you a decent challenge.

I know now why I'm being pwned so badly in BnG games. On the one hand the boredom makes me focus less and by trying windy zooks all the time I'm missing out on chances to make way easier shots with nades. On the other... there's no way I can compete with all the 'lame' tricks people throw at me. Whether it be markings, notches or repeats with petrols.

I suppose each player has to make a choice: do I join the darkside or do I prefer to f@#! around and go with my gut feeling, even though that gets me nowhere in competitive games  

I personally choose for the latter. Not necessarily because that makes me 'better' than cheapasses like Mablak haha , but because I find it more enjoyable. I don't really NEED to be the best at this game, and at the end of the day I prefer to make my shots with 'feeling' rather than with 'reason'.
Counting my angle, counting the distance to the enemy worm and just throwing nades... It's not for me.

If that makes me lose BnG and Hyst games, so be it.

And then losing TTRR to macro's  

Oh dear, I should be playing just with the CPU's. Although I suspect CPU5 of using markings too  

f@#! it

[cOke]

You're using a tool outside your own experience from playing games or watching other games and are basically letting a pre-programmed database do the shots for you. Not even the card counters in the blackjack example do that.

Quite irrelevant but in blackjack there are strategies that are the the most mathematically perfect, giving the house the the least edge possible. See http://www.onlineblackjackguide.com/Blackjackstrategy/Rivera_Gold_strat.gif for an example of a strategy card. This is the most efficient and mathematically successful strategy to adopt so if you count cards in blackjack you also have to remember a "database" of blackjack strategy (what's the best move in whatever situation) or at least learn basic strategy. This has some similarities to what Mablak is suggesting - that we should all remember our "databases" of notch distances given his commitment to no external aids.

As far as what ropa says, I think you are being quite contradictory here but I agree with part. At first you say that notchers should all reveal their methods to everyone. The next thing you say that notchers are bad because they never figured it out on there own, they were just told by clan mates etc so there is no skill there. I have always from the start accepted notching IF people figure it out for themselves. There are already tons of different bng "systems" out there and I thought it quite interesting that notching bng matches become a kind of test of which bng "system" is the best, along with the player skill in working it all out in 15s and hitting correct power. Then Mablak and some others teach their clan mates their one technique and it kind of defeats the point. If you have gone to the effort to figure out some bng system (which I did, from scratch, despite what Komo will likely say about teaching all of wormnet how to bng etc) then fair enough, if you have just learnt someone elses strategy it's shitty.

Also Mablak is wrong about normal players who do not know about notching, also employ notching in their "feel" game. I have no idea what he is getting at here but it's almost certainly wrong.

[TheKomodo]

Yea I forgot to write a conclusion. All I meant to say is learning to notch does require practice, it's not like one of your clanmates tell you how it works and next game you are Komo. (unless you practiced a lot between)

I am pretty confused lol cuz the way all these new notchers are notching is totally different to the way I do it.

For example of how strong my techniques are, watch all my games from this Tournament:

https://www.tus-wa.com/tournaments/tournament-410/

Now especially watch the shots at the end against k1ng, at 1st glance you don't even really see what happened, you especially won't if you are using a faster framerate to watch the replays, and even knowing how to notch most people would think it's still luck, but I knew it would do that after I seen angle with the 4s min bounce because of my notching techniques, the resolution I use and the fact I use a 42"HDTV that clearly shows everything bigger and better, it means I can see pixels up close so I can do transfers and trapshots pixel perfect, so I was able to see changing from min bounce to max bounce what effect it would have, and that it would transfer, and just having experience from knowing how grenades react from bounce to bounce I knew 5s would push him down left, and next turn if he didn't move 4s would go right at him...

I don't think theres another single person who would think of that situation the way I did, and that isn't because of notching, that's mostly from experience of trick shots, more specifically, trapshots, something I regulary do without notching also.

There are some shots I didn't notch, such as 3s nades, I just prefer to aim these instinctually for some reason, but all the 4s fp, floorbanks, 5s LG, bunnyhops, and some others, the LG zooks, were all notched.

Basically my point is, look at how good these players are, and look how accurate my notching methods destroy them along with my tactics, some trickery and experience, knowing how to notch, isn't the danger, it's knowing what to do with it that's extremely dangerous, and that is something you can only learn by being passionate about something, and I honestly feel that no one should be criticised for that.

Without knowing "the full monty" all most notchers can do is really throw direct shots and zook, mainly 3s, 4s FP and 5s LG, only the notchers with what is imo "real skill" are really almost impossible to beat, and watching 2 people with this skill play each other is more fast-paced and interesting than watching 2 people miss for 30-60 minutes.

In the world of competition and Leagues, I would compare BnG to boxing and think of notching as like the heavyweight.

[Aerox]

As far as what ropa says, I think you are being quite contradictory

I don't find it contradictory, I believe that because notching is an unsportsmanlike practice that can't be helped the next logical step is to make it completely public in order to maintain an even ground of competition.

[TheKomodo]

I personally choose for the latter. Not necessarily because that makes me 'better' than cheapasses like Mablak haha , but because I find it more enjoyable. I don't really NEED to be the best at this game, and at the end of the day I prefer to make my shots with 'feeling' rather than with 'reason'.
Counting my angle, counting the distance to the enemy worm and just throwing nades... It's not for me.

I just like playing BnG lol, no matter what scheme, what rules, what map, what methods or techniques, for me it's kinda like how TUS Classic League has lost of schemes, for me think of BnG as the TUS Classic League and all the schemes as the different variations and methods of BnG and how it can be played.

I consider myself as a complete allrounder the way Mablak/Random are for allround schemes, I am like that, but for allround BnG.

I believe that because notching is an unsportsmanlike practice that can't be helped the next logical step is to make it completely public in order to maintain an even ground of competition.

It's just your opinion and nothing more than you think notching is unsportsmanlike, some players do actually use it appropriately and fairly, if I could discover a way to prove someone was using notching methods, I would make a rule against it in TuS(simply cuz you have to learn it and some players may not know about it or could be bothered to learn it), but I would still enjoy doing it for fun against other notchers, perhaps even start a small notch-only League or do Tournaments for those that enjoy it.

I am with you 100% on making it completely public, which I AM going to do regardless of what anyone thinks about me doing so.

I realise the way I explain some things is sometimes confusing, so once I put it together i'll show it to KRD or someone who is good at explaining things to people from all sorts of cultures and get them to "ok" it for public display.

With my methods you will all be able to play at least as good as barman/Mablak/Random and probably better, if you actually understand it and use it right.

^^ Don't you think that would be awesome? If everyone was so good actually making PO was something that took great effort and practise? Not just knowing stuff that others don't? Or by being able to playnoobs over and over going 200-0 cuz you can notch lol...

(Talking about TRL here, the BnG Season.)

[Aerox]

I believe that because notching is an unsportsmanlike practice that can't be helped the next logical step is to make it completely public in order to maintain an even ground of competition.

It's just your opinion and nothing more than you think notching is unsportsmanlike

Apparently, it's also yours:

if I could discover a way to prove someone was using notching methods, I would make a rule against it in TuS

edit (spoon feeding for my good friend Komodo because I don't want this to derail into a thousand page thread about the different meanings and contexts of a word) :

Just because you're such a nice guy and only notch when it's morally right doesn't change the fact I labeled it as unsportsmanlike in that context, because I've already stated a couple of times that the reason I believe it's not sportsmanlike is because notchers have an advantage that birth from the fact they knew certain people and not through experience/study. This has nothing to do with Bng paladins that only use notching to defeat greater evils.

I was quite clear with the reasoning being the term unsportsmanlike, if you don't like it, debate it, but please realize that the mere fact that you and some of your bng friends only use notching against notchers has NOTHING to do with it.

[TheKomodo]

I believe that because notching is an unsportsmanlike practice that can't be helped the next logical step is to make it completely public in order to maintain an even ground of competition.

It's just your opinion and nothing more than you think notching is unsportsmanlike

Apparently, it's also yours:

if I could discover a way to prove someone was using notching methods, I would make a rule against it in TuS

You also obviously haven't read and/or understood the thread, or you would realise I do not share the same opinion.

If you can ever figure it out, then PM me with your answer and I will let you know if you are right or not since you are such a cleverclogs.

Edit: If you don't understand, or think you are right and I am wrong, be polite and ask, and I will be happy to explain what I already have again if you didn't catch it before.

Edit again: I read your edited post after I edited mine lol, I still stand by what I said because I still feel it's fair regardless how they learned it, I feel it's better to teach others because if only 1 person knew, than that 1 person would be considered BnG God.

Just to tell you anyway, I only think it's unsportsmanship when someone uses notching against someone who isn't, or someone who doesn't even know what notching is, it's irrelevant how they came to know how to notch.

[Aerox]

I believe that because notching is an unsportsmanlike practice that can't be helped the next logical step is to make it completely public in order to maintain an even ground of competition.

It's just your opinion and nothing more than you think notching is unsportsmanlike

Apparently, it's also yours:

if I could discover a way to prove someone was using notching methods, I would make a rule against it in TuS

You also obviously haven't read and/or understood the thread, or you would realise I do not share the same opinion.

If you can ever figure it out, then PM me with your answer and I will let you know if you are right or not since you are such a cleverclogs.

Edit: If you don't understand, or think you are right and I am wrong, be polite and ask, and I will be happy to explain what I already have again if you didn't catch it before.

Really Komo, if you took your tinted glasses off you'd realize you're not only agreeing with me by implications (you acknowledge notching is unsportsmanlike ergo bad for the competition by admitting you would censor it if there was a definite mean) and then you go ahead and try to dismiss what I've said?

It's really confusing when you agree with someone but attempt to mask it as you proving that guy wrong.

[TheKomodo]

ropa, if you don't understand what I said, now that we've both explained in greater detail what we mean, then sorry, we'll just have to leave it at that lol.

Edit: I would obviously make an exception if the persons involved teaching/learning were keeping it to themself for means of an advantage, by what seems to be what mm done.

I am kind of guilty of doing the same thing in the past, by not sharing the information, but at the time like I said very very few people knew how to do it, and most who did know were in a sort of respectful and mutual agreement not to abuse it.

Now things have changed, I want to share it with everyone.

[Aerox]

ropa, if you don't understand what I said, now that we've both explained in greater detail what we mean, then sorry, we'll just have to leave it at that lol.

Dude, we're talking about different things:


a) is it good sport to not use notching against non notchers? YES VERY SPORTSMANLIKE

b) is notching unsportsmanlike (competition wise) because only some people know it for reasons alien to the game itself? YES UNSPORTSMANLIKE

[TheKomodo]

Dude, we're talking about different things:

No, you stated:

Just because you're such a nice guy and only notch when it's morally right doesn't change the fact I labeled it as unsportsmanlike in that context, because I've already stated a couple of times that the reason I believe it's not sportsmanlike is because notchers have an advantage that birth from the fact they knew certain people and not through experience/study. This has nothing to do with Bng paladins that only use notching to defeat greater evils.

And I argued that, and now you are trying to change the subject, you have tried this before and failed, please don't make the same ignorant mistake again.

Edit: Nvm, you already edited it...

[Aerox]

Dude, we're talking about different things:

No, you stated:

Just because you're such a nice guy and only notch when it's morally right doesn't change the fact I labeled it as unsportsmanlike in that context, because I've already stated a couple of times that the reason I believe it's not sportsmanlike is because notchers have an advantage that birth from the fact they knew certain people and not through experience/study. This has nothing to do with Bng paladins that only use notching to defeat greater evils.

And I argued that, and now you are trying to change the subject, you have tried this before and failed, please don't make the same ignorant mistake again.

Edit: Nvm, you already edited it...

Sometimes I feel like I'm the the british and you're the spanish. You just quoted me... did you read what you just quoted? In that quote, like in all the following posts I'm trying to help you with your confusion. I was clear what I meant with the term unsportsmanlike, I was very clear, most people got it straight, madgod got it, d1 got it, mablak understands what I mean, I don't think anyone that has read it doesn't understand what I'm trying to argument, regardless of if they agree with it or not.

But for some really strange reason, you want to draw a connection between me claiming notching is unsportsmanlike because you don't get that ability by gaming (how many times have I made this statement already) and the fact you only notch when you think it's moral. See? Same thing I'm trying to explain in the post you just quoted. Here, I'm going to put it here for your convenience, so you can compare and understand:

Just because you're such a nice guy and only notch when it's morally right doesn't change the fact I labeled it as unsportsmanlike in that context, because I've already stated a couple of times that the reason I believe it's not sportsmanlike is because notchers have an advantage that birth from the fact they knew certain people and not through experience/study. This has nothing to do with Bng paladins that only use notching to defeat greater evils.

 Look, this is the fourth time I'm trying to get into your head that they are completely different things. You and me are debating nothing. I made a claim, you took what you wanted from it and then went on on how you're so sportmanlike because you only notch vs notchers, I even agreed to that being sport because you know, I never claimed otherwise, you just think I have because you don't read, you skip and lines and make up shit in your head, get really heat up and then come and make no sense whatsoever.

And yeah, there's little more to say, please don't drag this any further like in that other thread were you made 2 or 3 people intervene to explain to you how words can have different meanings. In this scenario, the lesson is words have different contexts: just because I used the words notching and unsportsmanlike together it has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with when and how you and your friends use notching or how moral that practice is, I'm speaking about the way people learn how to notch not how the use it.

So because I know how much you want to leave a mark in this thread, please don't waste your energy by agreeing with me by pretending to disagree, because it gets us nowhere. If you want the spotlight of this thread so everyone can pay attention on your claims about making notching public just ask me and I'll stop trying to help you out with words.

[TheKomodo]

What you said, in English words, was:

"Just because you're such a nice guy and only notch when it's morally right doesn't change the fact I labeled it as unsportsmanlike in that context, because I've already stated a couple of times that the reason I believe it's not sportsmanlike is because notchers have an advantage that birth from the fact they knew certain people and not through experience/study. This has nothing to do with Bng paladins that only use notching to defeat greater evils. "


By saying this, you just said that you labelled notching as unsportsmanlike in such context that it's unsportsmanlike to have an advantage of learning how to notch through a friend, and not just discovering it by themselves, which leaves to assumption it's ok to have this advantage if you learned it all by yourself.

I feel it is irrelevant who knows it and how they came to know it, what matter's how they use it, I feel it's ok to use it against other notchers, and it's not ok to use it against people who play by feeling.

And after I stated that, you told me I was talking about something else.

Are you still going to try and dodge this bullet, this ain't the damn matrix, you don't have special powers that enable you to avoid the truth and the inevitable.

Edit: Just admit you f@#!ed up, we both want the same outcome.

[Aerox]

I feel it is irrelevant who knows it and how they came to know it, what matter's how they use it, I feel it's ok to use it against other notchers, and it's not ok to use it against people who play by feeling.

Okay, so care to explain why you would prohibit notching if you had the means to detect it?

[TheKomodo]

I feel it is irrelevant who knows it and how they came to know it, what matter's how they use it, I feel it's ok to use it against other notchers, and it's not ok to use it against people who play by feeling.

Okay, so care to explain why you would prohibit notching if you had the means to detect it?

It's just your opinion and nothing more than you think notching is unsportsmanlike, some players do actually use it appropriately and fairly, if I could discover a way to prove someone was using notching methods, I would make a rule against it in TuS(simply cuz you have to learn it and some players may not know about it or could be bothered to learn it),

Edit: Also, I guess the majority of people would prefer instinctual BnG over notching anyway, notching really is hardcore man lol, least at my level.