Played my last game of BnG today

[HHC]

https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-715/ 

Unanch BnG, high island maps, no rules. At your service.

[Mablak]

Ah ropa, the insatiable troll ;O. I'll respond to your "arguments" for the sake of anyone who happens to think that way. It doesn't matter whether someone knows exactly how to notch or not, my argument still applies: 'feel' BnGers use notching, there is no way to separate it out, or detect it, OR completely stop yourself from doing it. Your only point was that it's questionable for me to talk about notching when people might not know how it works, but I explained it in my last post.

It's simple to understand, every weapon aims at specific, discrete angles, notching means knowing your exact angle. And I already explained how to do it, works that way for every weapon. All you have to do is figure out and remember the distances for each angle. I'm not personally giving anyone I don't trust a list of angles and distances, because it's easy for people to put markers on the screen and make notching even easier, and I strongly disagree with visual aids or notes of any kind (please remember TUS has a rule against using markings). If anyone thinks a list should be published, they can do it themselves by testing each angle for various shots, it takes about 8 hours or so. It takes time to test, but anyone can do it.

The fact that some people dislike notchers mostly comes from people resenting the fact that they learned to play the scheme one way, when a much easier way exists. But there's no escape from the fact that notching is the most efficient form of playing, and has to be treated as legal. If that ruins the scheme, then maybe BnG shouldn't be a league scheme. Although I think a game of memory and some feel is reasonably interesting, at least it requires you to think each turn.

[TheKomodo]

***** WARNING - VERY VERY LONG AND BORING TO MOST PEOPLE POST *****

I've been saying this for the last 5 years. Unanchored BnG takes care of most of the scheme problems. It's only those who know how to notch, which obviously happen to be the best BnGers who strongly argue agaisnt it. They are willing to give in in other forms of Bng scheme, but never to unanchored.

I disagree, I opened a thread and made a cup called 1rBnG (only rule was a distance rule, because once you have more health and turn advantage, you could just step up to them and hit them face to face).

Yeah unanchored worms could be great.
Anyway, if notch is allowed and it's a part of the game, there shouldn't be a problem making a guide here in this forum.
New players would appreciate it and there would be more challenge. Someone has time for that?

On un-anchored maps, against anyone who doesn't know how to notch, It's literally 100% impossible for me to lose, only notchers would have a chance against me but even against then it still makes it easier for me to win.

On anchored, if you learn how to notch, you can hide in "off-notch" areas, which is basically a hide from full powered notch shots, this would force them to use a shot that requires knowledge and experience of getting the power right, and sometimes this is very very difficult, and even easy for an expert like me to miss, this, is really your only chance against a notcher, because even then they still need good instinct.

I have 11 days off from work from July 8th, i'll spend some time making a really in-depth list, but it will be based on my personal way of notching which is totally different from the way Mablak and alot of others do it.

notchers live in a pedestal high in the heavens, see they know how to notch but only use it when it's morally right to do it. Bullshit. Notchers could come clean, but none of them dares step up, because it remains, they're aware of their advantage against the average, and they want that to remain intact.

I only use notching against notchers, I play lame and repeat against people who play lame and repeat, and I play trickery with those who play trickery, I adapt to my enviroment I guess.

I have never denied I started out in BnG notching, but that I stopped, and only 2 weeks ago started to notch whole games against notchers, and repeating etc.

I have also offered in the past, and present, to share the methods I use with others.

on the subject of maps, its only past 5 years or so that they've been flat maps, it was normal for them to be made from the 1 island and all the sides were nice darksiding spots for zooks and grider placements. Notchers would have no idea how to attack these and force players to learn zook curl zooks etc (stuff you see in hysteria)..

That's not entirely true, I can hit practically anywhere with notching, even more so with unanchored, you just gotta think outside the box.

The point of unanchored is that hides are much more darksideish on almost every turn thus most of the time you're using bounce shots (either bounce from starting position which you cannot notch, or a shot that you notch to a point you expect it to bounce off to your opponent which makes it less effective either way) and relying on creativity and knowledge of game's physics thus making it more even for a notcher against a non notcher.

I am pretty sure that 1st statement is wrong, I don't think anyone knew what notching was when BnG was unanchored, it certainly wasn't public knowledge or the reason for maps being more complex.

As i've said to Chicken, I know how to use notching to hit more or less anywhere, even more so if it's unanchored, as far as I am personally concerned, it's just not true, and I base this on personal and previous experience and knowledge of anything and everything BnG related, but I have played more BnG (on Worms Armageddon)than anyone ever remember, I had that silly advantage of choosing to ignore real life for a couple years back then and do nothing but BnG 16 hours a day.

[...] the ability to notch wasn't given to notchers through ability, effort and training, it was given by friends or clanmmates [...]

The only notching I was ever taught was 1 2 3 and 4 bar winds, 3s grenades, and 4s grenades, which I later corrected to be more specific, what I was taught I thought of notching as being "rounded up to the nearest whole" kinda like how TuS doesn't include milliseconds in TTRR, even though it should.

Then I went on to being able to notch every possible shot than can be notched, there are only a few types of shots that cannot be notched, even banks can be notched, but this depends on the distance of the worm-wall, like if you are directly against it, or some pixels from it, even double and triple and quadrouple banks can be notched, but they need to have the land in the appropriate place, the only things that can't be notched are when you are banking at distances from the walls, and transfers, bouncebacks, trapshots etc, EVERYTHING else CAN be notched, but some shots can't be notched due to insufficient turn time to figure it out quick enough and execute, they could with more time though.

I personally never practiced notching, but since I know the way it's build, I'd say that's bullshit. Every shot can be notched, not only 4sfp. Different distances need different powers, different shots make different curves, etc..

As explained above, not all shots can, but I think what I said is what you actually mean anyway?

So do you think it's my fault playing BnG with my eyes and not learning how to notch?

Yes

What to say, I'm proud to try to play it without anything.

Like Cueshark, you are a credit to this community for that attitude, I wish I had the strength to do the same.

Notching is like an auto aim bot in an FPS, and I'll never use that shit.

No, it is not, aim bots are 100% perfect, notching is just like, guidelines, notching is only possible to hit 100% if your worm is open, and full powered shots are used, this would mean having to repeat shots, and we could easily make a "no repeat" rule, which would mean notchers would be forced to actually use real talent for getting power correct and shots they are not familiar with in order to hit you, if your hide is good enough. So far, I think I am the only person who realises "no repeats" while allowing notching, would be awesome, and fair.

You can't even mention the other schemes, because there's nothing that makes you hit everyone in every turn, or speeds up your roping, or makes your crates to land near you.

Notching can be applied in Elite/Hysteria, it COULD be applied in T17, although there would be no point, it wouldn't be useful enough because the only shots I could think of would be the small distance ones, and it would be easier just to shoot right at them lol.

I'm afraid of learning to notch.
Because I like to hit my opponent. And I think playing by instinct is genuine. And I admire that.

I'd like to chat to you in person about how notching requires alot of instinctual abilities as well, the main reason notching is so dangerous is because TuS allows repeat shots lol.

But if I learned how to notch, it would be kinda impossible not to do it.
I feel a bit of shame even when using parts of the map to remember my angle.

Well, why? It's not like a CO of a big billion dollar company is going to ban calculators because it isn't instinctual, all it is, is an aid, it makes it easier, more effective, more professional, and overally, just f@#!ing better than without if used right lol.

Humans use similar techniques on a day 2 day basis, without even realising it, you shouldn't feel any shame, you just need to see the truth

I feel bad for the passionate BnG players who think that notching is fundamentally against the spirit of the game.  For them they are either forced to notch in order to stand a chance of winning, or they stick to their opinions that notching is bad practice and lose all the time to notchers.

I genuinely feel bad for the game of BnG with all this notching is wrong/right bollocks.

Personally, I just feel bad because some notchers use it unfairly against people who do not know how to notch, I don't want to notch in League games, but it's more painful to lose against someone notching and/or playing lame than it is to notch or play lame, and I just so happen to know how to notch, so why not? I trust myself not to use it against some newcomer to the game who just wants to have fun, I represent b2b and the fun spirit of BnG, I will mess around doing trick shots and try to show them how fun BnG can be, then later on, when they get owned by a notcher, they might actually like BnG enough and realise it can be played all kinds of styles whether serious or fun, no one is stopping anyone from playing with their friends, or playing more friendly in a2b, or host their own Tournaments on TuS with their OWN rules.

I think people are just a bit scared, misinformed about notching or just don't think inside and outside the box equally.

[DarkOne]

As much as I dislike what notching has done to BnG, I have to quote this:

And you (notchers who defend the privacy of notching) have an easy way out all the criticism, come clean, explain what's up. But you choose not to which does nothing but enlarge the thought that the secrecy is there to protect something very precious to you, win rating. What other choices are you giving them anyway? I'd say none.

Frank, do you wanna learn how to notch? Starting from aiming straight up, the worm's sprite changes after 5 smallest-possble-taps of the down arrow, then again after 4 more taps, then again after 4 more. So it's 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, and so on. That's all you really need to know, just have to figure out distances for each angle.

The difference between 'feel' BnGers and notchers is that feel BnGers look at the angle and give an estimation for which angle gets the grenade where it needs to be. Notchers use a ruler (figuratively) to measure out the angle to know where the grenade will get. Notchers also tend to be less likely to vary their shots.
The difference lies in the attitude towards league games, doesn't it? Are you willing to do anything to get a win or are you there to play a game? Considering even professional sportsman won't do anything it takes to win (you see them correcting refs in favour of their opponents sometimes in tennis for example), it shouldn't be surprising that people look down on notching.

[TheKomodo]

The difference lies in the attitude towards league games, doesn't it? Are you willing to do anything to get a win or are you there to play a game?

Notching and "doing anything to get the win" are completely different things, it's the rules and people who use notching unfairly either way that makes notching dangerous and lame, it has nothing to do with the method, it's the nature of "corrupt humans" that destroy the beauty of it.

Considering even professional sportsman won't do anything it takes to win (you see them correcting refs in favour of their opponents sometimes in tennis for example), it shouldn't be surprising that people look down on notching.

That's not really true though is it? For one, if I feel the ref made a wrong decision regarding rules and fairplay, I will correct him either way, because it's who I am, but either way complaining about a method or style of playing/taking part in something if it is not against the rules and you are playing a serious League match, where the definate goal and the whole point is to win, not have fun, you are being selfish if you think you have the right to complain about this considering you KNOW it's a serious "for the win" game, the times in the past i've lost serious games for being too merciful to my opponents, it will not happen again.

People are dumb enough not to realise that, regardless that this is indeed a fun community, it's a mother f@#!ing LEAGUE, and all the tops players play serious and for the win, and ALL use similar techniques and methods like notching in other schemes, they will always do anything possible to win as long as it's allowed, bottom line, you choose to play "for fun" in this league, so YOU should live with it, we shouldn't have to put up with this kind of complaining from people who don't wanna take it serious.

[Chicken23]

A rule about having to change your shot after hitting with a 3sec, 4sec or lg 5sec and not repeating could improve the advantage that notchers hold as komodo mentioned. This would result in less repeating. Take an example where potentially the 4sec or lg5sec shot could be impossible to hit, this may force a new shot after the 3sec was hit that resulted them in using their feel because they may be new to notching and not know how it applies to other shots than these..

[fr4nk]

Komo, you know better than anyone that in Elite/Hysteria etc you have a variety of hides, tactics etc.

You can do a pair of shots, ok, but notching in the other schemes doesn't give you the auto win.

Anyway, not every worms player has a good clan, or knows experienced player who could teach em these "secrets", that's why I'm asking to show everyone what are we talking about.

It would be great if you are going to do it, Komo.

[Mablak]

Agreed with Komo, this is a league, the standard should be that people are both allowed and encouraged to do whatever it takes to win within the rules. If people don't want to play a given scheme that way, they should simply stick to playing it in funners.

D1's example about referees is an exception I agree with, however it's different from the notching situation. In this case, the player is simply trying to adhere to the rules by calling the ref on his mistake, to do otherwise could be considered cheating, not merely bad sportsmanship. I think most instances of bad sportsmanship (aside from just having a bad attitude) are similar, trying to get away with basically breaking a rule through some flaw in how it's stated, even though you know the intentions of the rule should forbid what you're doing. In BnG, there's no explicit or implicit rule that people shouldn't be notching, and we can't make one.

Really, trying to regulate how 'politely' players play in-game is just continuing to nurture the idea of cheapness, I feel like that's partly what this is about. People need to realize that cheapness is a totally counter-productive consideration. It prevents skill from being measured accurately, and people constantly develop their own implicit rules about what's lame, resulting in two teams essentially playing a game with two different rule sets, and creating a ton of drama.

[Aerox]

Prankster: I don't see how what you typed has any relevance to what you quoted

Mablak: I find it pretty rich that you claim I'm trolling when your argument is "everyone notches unconsciously". For the record, I wasn't.

...

Two of the best BnG players, Mablak and Komodo have posted in this thread. Both notchers, none found notchinng by personal training, study nor experience (even though they might have perfection it by such). One of them claims to notch only against notchers. The other one claims he doesn't trust the community only his clanmmates with the specific method. That's fair enough guys, you're in your own right, but you can't expect people to buy it, simple as, you're being bad sport, and the worst of it, is how you constantly try to justify that you have an advantage in a worms league because of the people you know as opposed to your actual ability to compete. You don't have to justify anything, you're within the law, but you also have a responsibility, so go on, bring this scheme to the ground to the point of no return. I for one, will be glad.

We have guides for basically every weapon glitch and mechanic abuse. We have/had a visual guide on how to tweak your keyboard. Xspeed became common knowledge shortly after being flavour of the month. You'd assume that after so many Bngers learned were taught how to notch (we've gone a long way since sCa) and you're telling me none of them has enough interest in the game to write an in depth guide? They won't. And people, here are the reasons:

the community can't be trusted but we have to trust them to take good care of the knowledge.

All hail.

[DarkOne]

I think you missed my point (or at least didn't address it) where in notching you're using a technique that doesn't require much estimation, but rather is a measurement of a standard shot.
You're using a tool outside your own experience from playing games or watching other games and are basically letting a pre-programmed database do the shots for you. Not even the card counters in the blackjack example do that.
You can say that it does require some skill to do those shots even with notching and you're probably right (I don't notch myself, but I can recognise it requires at least some skill), but the same can be said about AHK - if there are no skills to begin with, AHK will not help.

In any case, this is (for me at least) not an attempt to make notching illegal. It's merely an explanation why it completely sucks the fun out of BnG for a lot of players (or at least some).

[TheKomodo]

Really, trying to regulate how 'politely' players play in-game is just continuing to nurture the idea of cheapness, I feel like that's partly what this is about. People need to realize that cheapness is a totally counter-productive consideration. It prevents skill from being measured accurately, and people constantly develop their own implicit rules about what's lame, resulting in two teams essentially playing a game with two different rule sets, and creating a ton of drama.

This is perfect.

[TheKomodo]

Komo, you know better than anyone that in Elite/Hysteria etc you have a variety of hides, tactics etc.

You can do a pair of shots, ok, but notching in the other schemes doesn't give you the auto win.

Anyway, not every worms player has a good clan, or knows experienced player who could teach em these "secrets", that's why I'm asking to show everyone what are we talking about.

It would be great if you are going to do it, Komo.

With my knowledge about BnG, if I was actually interested in Elite, and got as good as most of the best players, I would have an advantage over them, check out what I can do in Elite, the hdies I can hit, with notching.

When I played in TEL, alot of the best players (that I played) knew how good I am, and it made them hide different.

Sorry double post, thought someone posted after me got confused lol.

[Aerox]

Really, trying to regulate how 'politely' players play in-game is just continuing to nurture the idea of cheapness, I feel like that's partly what this is about. People need to realize that cheapness is a totally counter-productive consideration. It prevents skill from being measured accurately, and people constantly develop their own implicit rules about what's lame, resulting in two teams essentially playing a game with two different rule sets, and creating a ton of drama.

This is perfect.

Who are the people more vocally opposed to NRBG being imposed in the league? (just wondering)

[TheKomodo]

Who are the people more vocally opposed to NRBG being imposed in the league? (just wondering)

I dunno, but I hope you realise whatever the answer, it's irrelevant to anything i've said.

[Prankster]

I personally never practiced notching, but since I know the way it's build, I'd say that's bullshit. Every shot can be notched, not only 4sfp. Different distances need different powers, different shots make different curves, etc..

As explained above, not all shots can, but I think what I said is what you actually mean anyway?

Prankster: I don't see how what you typed has any relevance to what you quoted

Yea I forgot to write a conclusion. All I meant to say is learning to notch does require practice, it's not like one of your clanmates tell you how it works and next game you are Komo. (unless you practiced a lot between)