Experimental season result - bng

[Chicken23]

I quote from a year ago;


Quote from: DarkOne on June 23, 2013, 01:07 PM

    Quote from: KoreanRedDragon on June 19, 2013, 12:53 AM

        What was wrong with doing full power shots in the first place?


    The way I saw BnG, it was a test of skills, who could handle the bazooka and grenade the best. Before notching, at least, this meant picking the right angle (estimation of a weapons' trajectory) as well as the right power to fire at (a sense of timing, when to release space). Notching has for the most part removed the latter part, which is a sad thing, if you ask me.


But full power shots existed before notching was even called notching (the term appeared roughly 10 years ago, give or take). And still today, in practice, players do as many full power shots that aren't notched as those that are. A lot of the time those "by feel" full power shots, in BnG as in other schemes, are quite impressive and satisfying to pull off (see my Showcase 4 submission), certainly something I would like to see more of in league BnG, not less. By making TestStuff mandatory, TUS isn't punishing notchers, you're targeting players who resort to full power shots more often than others. And I would argue that there's enough difference between the two to make this change look completely arbitrary, especially because it comes irreversibly coupled with the inability to aim straight up easily, which actually favours experienced notchers and completely ruins, for example, my approach to aiming.

It also strikes me as more than a little schizoid that on the one hand, TUS specifically allows notching and tells players to just get better if they want to be competitive, while on the other, you're happy to resort to these extreme measures* (the only rationale being that it'll make life harder for notchers) even at the cost of reducing the viable repertoire of shots available to all players, thus making the scheme more bland.

And as an aside, why is notching bad in BnG but okay in all other ground schemes?

* Yes, introducing a different, experimental set of game mechanics into the league because of a single scheme is extreme by WA standards. Like really really extreme.


I really agree with KRD here on ts in bng. I picked it this season after coming back to tus and found that chelsea and lukz were both calling me weird for wanting to use normal bng rules. The ts rule really screws with aimming and resetting your aim straight up, sometimes you want a 1 or 2 tap shot from straight up and almost impossible to achieve this as you can never aim up so stops alot of low wind shots.
Also the full power functionality is removed and like KRD says some players use this without notching and it not being cheap.

Its really disappoint after having been inactive and as a defaulter to see some of your favourite schemes dramatically changed.
I'll carry on picking my prefered older scheme types and if people accept them thats ok, but what bothers me is how in the playoffs we HAVE to use tus schemes which aren't great. How many bngs have been played in the last year and how many of them have ts in? Also its the wrong way to prevent notchers and like KRD says, your encouraging people to get as good as notchers by notching but then make a change like this.. If bng relaxed the rules on darksiding and what was considered 'cheap' it would be a good way to battle a notcher. As most notchers haven't learnt to use bounce shots that well which can be timed to explode on impact for example and then all you need is some cover.
For example the rule, as long as you have a shot each turn your hide is legal would be great in bng as a darksiding strategy to defeat notching.

ps. sorry for the poorly quoted text but didn't know how when its in another thread that is locked.

[Lukz]

i hae play rr's with 5 worm, but in ts moment those are the rules, and i remeber that bng, i lose coz i accept ur fullnotchzooks xD

[DarkOne]

The ts rule really screws with aimming and resetting your aim straight up, sometimes you want a 1 or 2 tap shot from straight up and almost impossible to achieve this as you can never aim up so stops alot of low wind shots.

Can you explain the underscored bit, please? Because I can find no plausible reason that prevents you from doing zooks with low winds other than only being able to do one type of zook shot.

[Chicken23]

sorry i don't understand what you mean.

As you can't aim straight up you can do shots with lg 1 bar wind, or 2. And you also can't do 1 or 2 bar wind regular shots.

Also as you can't aim straight up, its impossible to achieve the 1/2 tap to the left or right aim, to again use the combination of lg and no lg zook shots.

[DarkOne]

TS doesn't prevent you from doing shots that aren't full power.

[Chicken23]

But it makes getting those angles almost impossible. Because it thinks your resetting your aimmer straight up and just resets your aim randomly.

I understand that you can learn to time your power to achieve fullpower. But the 2 important factors of aimming and shooting in bng are inpedied due to going against notching.

My point isn't solely about the change in the aimming process that ts forces, but the message that tus is saying learn to notch if you want to beat players like barman or mablak, and then puts in a change scheme wide that goes against that. There are other tactics to defeat a good notcher which the current rules have taken away.... going back to my point about darksiding.

[lacoste]

Hey Chicken, not sure if you are referring to this topic,  but theres plenty of room left for a discussion. Theres also an idea of allowing 1 girder without any rules, we also discussed darksiding a bit.

[DarkOne]

But it makes getting those angles almost impossible. Because it thinks your resetting your aimmer straight up and just resets your aim randomly.

I understand that you can learn to time your power to achieve fullpower. But the 2 important factors of aimming and shooting in bng are inpedied due to going against notching.

My point isn't solely about the change in the aimming process that ts forces, but the message that tus is saying learn to notch if you want to beat players like barman or mablak, and then puts in a change scheme wide that goes against that. There are other tactics to defeat a good notcher which the current rules have taken away.... going back to my point about darksiding.

My point is that you aren't obligated to use full power shots, you seem to forget that in your motivation.

[Chicken23]

there is alot to read there... will the out come of the conversation result in tus accepting other schemes however?

[Chicken23]

But it makes getting those angles almost impossible. Because it thinks your resetting your aimmer straight up and just resets your aim randomly.

I understand that you can learn to time your power to achieve fullpower. But the 2 important factors of aimming and shooting in bng are inpedied due to going against notching.

My point isn't solely about the change in the aimming process that ts forces, but the message that tus is saying learn to notch if you want to beat players like barman or mablak, and then puts in a change scheme wide that goes against that. There are other tactics to defeat a good notcher which the current rules have taken away.... going back to my point about darksiding.

My point is that you aren't obligated to use full power shots, you seem to forget that in your motivation.

 of course not, but the circular aim of /ts is almost removing about 8 possible nice shots... 1 or 2 strength wind in both lg and none lg for 2 or 1 angle adjustment.

[Peja]

Hey Chicken, not sure if you are referring to this topic,  but theres plenty of room left for a discussion. Theres also an idea of allowing 1 girder without any rules, we also discussed darksiding a bit.

right now we dont have an idea or discussion about 1 girder without rules, its the default rule on tus league bng lmfao.

https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-992/

[DarkOne]

of course not, but the circular aim of /ts is almost removing about 8 possible nice shots... 1 or 2 strength wind in both lg and none lg for 2 or 1 angle adjustment.

Of course not, it just makes them harder to do. And even then, there are lots of other shots you can use, unless you don't want to learn them.

[lacoste]

there is alot to read there... will the out come of the conversation result in tus accepting other schemes however?

I honestly doubt that this or any topic related to schemes can change anything for "better" here, but its not like TUS is the only target. Anyway i pointed you there as its related.

[Chicken23]

of course not, but the circular aim of /ts is almost removing about 8 possible nice shots... 1 or 2 strength wind in both lg and none lg for 2 or 1 angle adjustment.

Of course not, it just makes them harder to do. And even then, there are lots of other shots you can use, unless you don't want to learn them.

using lg 1 bar wind is pretty hard to do as it is, and by making it harder to learn something which already requires skill aren't you just turning bng into a 3sec festival? I don't see the logic in making those shots harder.

[Aerox]

serious question

why still, to this date, the people making the decisions to change the schemes are not amongst the best and most experienced players of said schemes?

like for example, why didn't you ask Chicken and KRD before making this change when they're clearly the two with the most perspective on the matter as proven by this thread?

you know why straight zooks and bank shots were removed from Bng? Because they're too easy to achieve. As easy as adding 2 and 2 together and making a perfect shot.