Tourneys/Cups - reported game canceled due to scheme problem noticed later?

[Albus]

But you already had a rematch with the correct settings. You wanna keep playing until you win or what? That's not fair to Mega`Adnan.

If he found the first game fair and so did I, adding to the result of the second game, it's 3x2 for me. That's why I think a rematch would be interesting.

[zuck]

First game is null and void, as it was a funner according to the cup moderator:

Yeah, sucks to think you played a cup game and in the end you were playing a funner. But sorry mate, the cup is with 8 worms.

You're just making up your own rules, which again, isn't fair to your opponent.

[Albus]

First game is null and void, as it was a funner according to the cup moderator:

Yeah, sucks to think you played a cup game and in the end you were playing a funner. But sorry mate, the cup is with 8 worms.

You're just making up your own rules, which again, isn't fair to your opponent.

I'm not making my rules. I just don't agree with the decision that was made. I'm trying to come to a deal that makes me and Adnan happy ok? I'm talking to him. If it's something he doesn't like, I won't want it either.

[TheKomodo]

Is it worth canceling a game, for a mistake that wasn't caused by the players, and that didn't generate a feeling of injustice in any of the players?

As i've explained countless times, which you seem to keep ignoring, yes, it is worth voiding this game, because the importance and impact of that decision will affect more than just you and Mega`Adnan.

There will hardly be a situation like this in the future. I invite you to look for a similar situation throughout the history of cups and tournaments in TUS, where a game was played with one worm missing and nobody noticed it during 1 hour of play, only noticing it after the game was reported. In other words, this is a very peculiar situation that will possibly never happen again.

Deadcode played with the incorrect scheme in the Camelot Team17 Cup:

https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/cup-1109/

There was a debate about it, and to summarize the following happened after some back and forth:

Deadcode, if you played cup games not according to the scheme indicated, I have the right to delete your games, since they were played in a different scheme. I would advise you to replay all the games with whom you played in the band without unnecessary emotions. In any other case, if you refuse to change the scheme, then the games will not be counted again.

Lancelot, if you want to delete my games, go ahead. I will have no further interest in playing this cup if you do though, so go ahead and delete me from the roster while you're at it. I think Syc will want the same, as he agreed with me about the scheme you attached to the cup.

While it was not the exact same issue, it was a very similar condition:

• The wrong scheme was used.
• The changes to the scheme, although agreed upon and fair for both players for that specific game, was disrespectful to the Cup.
• This change was not approved by the Cup moderator.
• Those games were voided.

There was also the case of a 80hp Intermediate scheme being reported instead of the official Intermediate scheme for the Singles league. I've been looking for the post though can't find it, I think it was perhaps deleted because it was a reply to the game page, and since the game was deleted, all the comments were removed also.

Now, you might argue - "But that scheme is a bigger difference than this scheme with 7/8 worms", which I see as irrelevant, the fact is the wrong scheme was used and it greatly affects the balance of the game.

These are 2 examples that have happened within the last month or 2, it's literally impossible to check for every other occurance in the history of this game. We can fantasize that if we had some sort of AI machine that had every occurance of similar situations since Worms Armageddon started having Leagues, Tournaments, Worm Olympics etc, that we would find more examples. That doesn't matter though.

Though i''ll admit it is a rare occurance, it's ignorant to assume it may never happen again.

So you want to make a big deal out of it?

You are the one making a big deal out of it, all i'm doing is defending my decision and explaining why, you keep choosing to ignore the importance of why the decision was made.

Why so much adherence to the rule if none of the players felt harmed by a mistake that was not caused by them and probably won't never happen again?

This decision doesn't revolve around just you and Mega`Adnan.

There is no proportionality in this decision. Adopting this decision is being very attached to the rules, to the detriment of the player's well-being.

Yes there is proportionality, i've literally explained why this decision and rule has been made after looking at the bigger picture and balancing equality for everyone.

Again, this decision doesn't revolve around just you and Mega`Adnan.

Of course it's attached to the rules, that's the point, so it's fair for everyone, not just you and/or Mega`Adnan.

I maintain my starting position and suggestion that in similar situations in the future, the game should be maintained.

If you want this special house rule, then you can create your own Cup and apply it, otherwise you must play by the rules provided by the Cup moderators.

If he found the first game fair and so did I, adding to the result of the second game, it's 3x2 for me.

For you it's 3x2, however to the Cup, as judged by the official Cup scheme, which is the only scheme that matters, it's 2:1 for Mega`Adnan.

First game is null and void, as it was a funner according to the cup moderator:

Yeah, sucks to think you played a cup game and in the end you were playing a funner. But sorry mate, the cup is with 8 worms.

You're just making up your own rules, which again, isn't fair to your opponent.

I'm not making my rules. I just don't agree with the decision that was made. I'm trying to come to a deal that makes me and Adnan happy ok? I'm talking to him. If it's something he doesn't like, I won't want it either.

This decision does not revolve around you and Mega`Adnan, this decision affects everyone who participates in the Cup.

If the only participants in the Cup were you and Mega`Adnan, and there wasn't a cash prize, and it wasn't part of the official Cup rankings, i'd allow it. However it's not, so I won't.

[Albus]

This decision does not revolve around you and Mega`Adnan, this decision affects everyone who participates in the Cup.

If the only participants in the Cup were you and Mega`Adnan, and there wasn't a cash prize, and it wasn't part of the official Cup rankings, i'd allow it. However it's not, so I won't.

I'm talking about the idea of the rematch, which he proposed too.

[Albus]

Wait, won't you allow it if we want to do a rematch? I did not understand.

[Albus]

As i've explained countless times, which you seem to keep ignoring, yes, it is worth voiding this game, because the importance and impact of that decision will affect more than just you and Mega`Adnan.

Why do I ignore? I read the things you say, but I don't agree with your reasons. I don't know why you keep insisting in say that.

You are the one making a big deal out of it, all i'm doing is defending my decision and explaining why, you keep choosing to ignore the importance of why the decision was made.

I said that you are making a big deal for 3 reasons:

1) it was something that didn't bother me or Mega-Adnan;

2) it was a mistake caused by you, which will very rarely happen again, so we don't need to debate the future integrity of the cup;

3) this type of decision only serve to cause unnecessary debate and frustration.

Yes there is proportionality, i've literally explained why this decision and rule has been made after looking at the bigger picture and balancing equality for everyone.

Ok. But I don't agree with your explanation.

For you it's 3x2, however to the Cup, as judged by the official Cup scheme, which is the only scheme that matters, it's 2:1 for Mega`Adnan.

For me and for Mega Adnan, since he said he didn't mind play with 7 worms. So, it was a fair game for us both.

This whole debate seems like we played shopper scheme instead of playing the cup scheme. But it all came down to the fact that we played with 7 worms instead of 8 worms.

[TheKomodo]

I'm talking about the idea of the rematch, which he proposed too.

Wait, won't you allow it if we want to do a rematch? I did not understand.

What is your reason for wanting yet another rematch?

What if Mega`Adnan wins again? If you keep losing will you keep playing rematches with Mega`Adnan until you win? How many times will it take before you accept it?

You specifically said it's because you don't want to spend the time playing again, the winner/loser doesn't matter:





It seems to me you really feel like you were cheated and you deserve the win.

Why do you want to play yet another rematch with Mega`Adnan after specifically saying you don't want to go through that again?


What about Mega`Adnan? If you win the next rematch, judging by YOUR OWN LOGIC, then it's unfair for him, not to mention Mega`Adnan originally won the first official match because the match with 7 worms was voided due to the incorrect scheme.

You had some issues with Rafka with your 80hp Tournament game and you said during our conversation yesterday as an example for this current issue:



Now, i'm obviously not psychic so cannot know 100% what you think or feel.

However it looks very clear to me like you don't have a problem with replaying a match, you have a problem because you lost the rematch with Mega`Adnan.


So, if you and Mega`Adnan both ask and confirm to void the current standing match for your 80hp Cup game, and as long as you play it within the given deadline for the 80hp Cup, i'll have to consult with Dario though I see no problem with that.

I personally think it's ridiculous relative to everything you've said regarding this incident, though my opinion doesn't matter if that is the course of action you and Mega`Adnan decide to take.

Of course, just make sure you use the correct scheme. 


I've just read your other post as well though there isn't much to say about it.

You still refuse to counter my points and information i've shared, you made some points about what you feel should happen, which I went into great detail about why my decision and this rule is important and healthy for the future of the Cup, and you didn't try to counter them, you simply said you don't agree then repeated your original points.

Why don't you agree? What is it about the logic and reasoning i've used don't you agree with? Work with me here!

You will not achieve anything unless you actually debate!

[Albus]

Everything I'm going to expose is in accordance with my sense of justice. The rules are made by you. I will speak the way I would like it to be. So consider this as a suggestion for future situations.

I don't think it's fair to consider that game null, due to the mistake of a third person. Your fault was direct and commissive, because you were the host. Adnan and I act with omission and inattention. But the obligation to put the correct scheme belongs to the host. Imagine the work it would be, every time someone creates a game, you go out looking at all the scheme settings. The host is responsible for selecting the correct scheme etc.

If I had been the host, I wouldn't be having this debate. I would take the blame, and the opponent would deserve a tech win for my mistake in selecting the correct scheme (not a rematch). If Adnan had made the mistake, the fairest would be for me to have the victory.

An individual cannot suffer the consequences of a third person error. Also, we must take into account that this affects the psychological of the player, who has to "win a second time" and endure the frustration of having your victory canceled and time wasted.

But then we can ask: if Adnan was not responsible for the error, just as me, he cannot be harmed by something he has not caused. That's why Adnan's opinion about it is important. Did he think he lost because he had 7 worms instead of 8? Does he think this error interfered with the result of the match?

[TheKomodo]

Everything I'm going to expose is in accordance with my sense of justice. The rules are made by you. I will speak the way I would like it to be. So consider this as a suggestion for future situations.

To be honest, this whole situation gave me an idea for a Cup based on alterations of a scheme.

Though for an event like this, at least personally speaking, i'd never host it without a rule specifically stating the correct scheme must be use, absolutely no alterations are allowed otherwise the game will be void.

I'm sure there are some people out there who are more than happy to allow mistakes and accidents, however i'm not one of them.

I don't think it's fair to consider that game null, due to the mistake of a third person. Your fault was direct and commissive, because you were the host. Adnan and I act with omission and inattention. But the obligation to put the correct scheme belongs to the host. Imagine the work it would be, every time someone creates a game, you go out looking at all the scheme settings. The host is responsible for selecting the correct scheme etc.

Ok, you are contradicting yourself there a bit.

You started off by saying it's not fair to void the game due to the mistake made by a 3rd party.

Ok, we're ok so far, however then, you said because I am the host, you and adnan act with omission and inattention, however how can you act with inattention, which means negligence and lack of attention, if you shouldn't have to pay attention? Your first sentence puts the blame entirely on me, and the entire reason for believing the game should stand is because I am the host. So if everything is entirely my fault, how can you possibly be held responsible for a lack of attention and negligence? The very definition of that implies that you should have been paying attention, therefor making you both accountable. Otherwise you are saying you don't need to pay attention at all, meaning it's pointless to even use those words.

So, definitions of words aside, I think your point is, it's entirely my fault and you and Mega`Adnan should have absolutely zero responsibility.

I've chosen to accept the bigger part to blame as I was the match host, as well as the Cup appointed moderator, and also streaming live.

It doesn't change the fact that you and Mega`Adnan are still responsible for not noticing, and it wouldn't change the outcome regardless who made the mistake or at which point it was noticed. You check the map and agree that it's ok, so howcome you didn't check the scheme as well?

Should we just accept the hosts map pick regardless if the players don't like it?

Also, Dario said earlier:

Yeah, sucks to think you played a cup game and in the end you were playing a funner. But sorry mate, the cup is with 8 worms. Players should have noticed that as soon as the first round started, can't blame it all on the host since in a strategic scheme it is kind of expectable for players to be aware of where each of their worms is as soon as the round starts.
It's awesome that you guys decided to play an extra game , can't wait for another amazing stream.

If I had been the host, I wouldn't be having this debate. I would take the blame, and the opponent would deserve a tech win for my mistake in selecting the correct scheme (not a rematch). If Adnan had made the mistake, the fairest would be for me to have the victory.

So your problem is directly with a 3rd party host?

So here is a suggestion, no more 3rd party hosting? I didn't even want to do it in the first place for specifically this reason that i'd eventually screw it up and have people complaining lol.

Don't you remember me refusing to host matches in CWT 2020 because of map picking and the fear of messing up?

My worst fears came true...

So would you like us to enforce a rule where there are no 3rd party hosts anymore?

It wouldn't change the decision either way, if you hosted or Mega`Adnan hosted, regardless who won, the match would be voided and rescheduled.

We can open up a poll to stop allowing 3rd party hosts though if that makes you feel better?

An individual cannot suffer the consequences of a third person error. Also, we must take into account that this affects the psychological of the player, who has to "win a second time" and endure the frustration of having your victory canceled and time wasted.

I mean, they can, and they will.

Look at Rafka during CWT with his relative interrupting? I was looking back at a Big RR Tournament Semi-Final against ArtiC where he blamed the cat for jumping on the keyboard. I've lost games because someone called my mobile and I became distracted. My cat jumped on my keyboard as I was throwing my 8th worm in a dS Challenge and completely ruined a perfect game. While I called him a little bastard it also made me laugh and gave him cuddles.

Sometimes things are out of our control, sometimes mistakes and accidents happen. They always feel bad, though we just move on.

At least in this case, you actually had an equal chance to win again, it's not like Mega`Adnan had an advantage or anything.

You didn't even have to play immediately, though as soon as I mentioned you guys can play again, you both immediately accepted and appeared to be happy to play again, it was not until the next again day you started to privately message me and express disappointment.

To be quite honest, we all rushed into the rematch without actually discussing it. With that said, do you think things would have been handled differently had we delayed the rematch?

Maybe you would have won, and had no problem if we had delayed things.

But then we can ask: if Adnan was not responsible for the error, just as me, he cannot be harmed by something he has not caused. That's why Adnan's opinion about it is important. Did he think he lost because he had 7 worms instead of 8? Does he think this error interfered with the result of the match?

Sure, we can ask, we can find out opinions, though those opinions won't change the fact the scheme was designed and extensively tested and balanced for 8 worms.

Maybe one player did have an advantage and won, maybe the same player had an advantage and lost, it doesn't matter.

The scheme was designed exclusively to be played with 8 worms, Dario spent many hours testing with various players, he spent a lot of time testing with Mablak and others variations of the scheme with less worms, weapon delays and other settings.

[Albus]

Ok, you are contradicting yourself there a bit.
You started off by saying it's not fair to void the game due to the mistake made by a 3rd party.
Ok, we're ok so far, however then, you said because I am the host, you and adnan act with omission and inattention

We (Me and Adnan) should pay attention. But I don't consider it as an obligation. In my opinion, this is the host's obligation (putting the correct scheme etc.).

[Albus]

I decided to stay out of the CUP. Replace me please if possible. You and Dario are nice people. I don't think it's respectful to continue in the CUP and keep having that kind of conversation. I like you guys. But I don't agree with your posture as moderators.

[Albus]

It would be much better if you asked the players what they think or if the loser felt harmed
or not instead of just arbitrary tell them to redo the matches. This, in fact, caused much more harm than good.

As my final consideration on this topic, I adopt the same line of thinking as Doonie. In situations like this in the future, I think players should be asked what they want to do. As I always say, the most important thing is fun. I don't come here looking for frustration. I was happy with the win, and a few hours later, the win was removed because they told me the match was played with 7 worms instead of 8, and I was determined to play again, for a mistake I didn't make, without anyone asking me what I thought or feel about it. I think in these situations players should be asked what they want to do. If Mega-Adnan said that the fact of having 1 less worm was a disadvantage, no problem. I would play without complaining. But he didn't say that. We played again because it was the moderators' decision.

[Senator]

Using exactly the right scheme/settings can be important to the cup mod because he might be testing his own scheme or something. If someone used the wrong scheme in my test cup, I wouldn't give a sh*t whose fault it was. I'd just want the match to be replayed with the correct scheme. It's up to the cup mod to decide how strict the rules are.

[Zalo the moler]

If I am allowed, I just want to shed some light on 3 things.

1. You always put all your heart into the 1st match. Upon hearing that it's been all in vain, you will never play the 2nd round as good. Moreover, the person whose loss was spared instantly gains an immense boost in morale (just like Uruguay that won against Ghana in penalty shootout in 2010 after Ghana's goal was stopped by hands). So the argument that Adnan did "some great moves there" isn't fair in my opinion.

One example is drawing. I used to draw a lot. I would spend 10 hours of one bigger project. I would just be utterly demotivated to do the same as good again if it was destroyed. We all lost an essay that we spent a night on, you know this feeling.

2. One person said that Albus "agreed" to play rematch so he should be fine with it. Please show me a football player who was informed that his successful penalty was invalid, he must repeat is, and the footballer refused to do so... Nobody will refuse in a heat of a moment.

3. Komito, my friend, everybody knows you are a fantastic mod and that you have good intentions. No authority is needed here. You already earned everybody's respect. Winning is not accidental. The one who is better will win if you let them fight on a separate day, 4 days from now so that they can appear there both given 2nd chance for their morale to be the same. I think you know what's a right to do. I have damaged the good spirit of my own 2vs2 cup by my mistake, so I don't want the same to happen to this cup.

Heads up. We are all human beings. All good