Tourneys/Cups - reported game canceled due to scheme problem noticed later?

[Albus]

I don't think the game with 7 worms should be considered a game from this cup, because it wasn't played in accordance to the scheme settings. In this case, the scheme was tested and balanced for 8 worms, 1 less worms makes a huge difference, so a match with 7 worms can't count as a match for this cup. Yes, it isn't explicitly written, but in the scheme description and in every one of the past tournaments it was said that 8 is the number of worms. My mistake for not writing that down, many times some things seem so obvious that we don't even write down rules for some situations. I like the point about professionalism, and I think that if variations (intentional or not) are to be allowed, then it has to be explicitly said so in the cup description.

I also don't think the game should be played with 7 worms. But, as I said, it was an error caused directly by Komito, host of the game. Me and Mega-Adnan failed because we didn't saw the mistake, but it wasn't a mistake caused directly by us. Mega-Adnan and I were "forced" to repeat the game because of mistake by a third person. So I think we should be asked if we wanted to repeat the game or not. Yesterday I asked Mega-Adnan on discord if he thought it was unfair that he lost because he played with 7 worms, and he replied as follows:



Proportionality and reasonableness are needed in decisions. The game was played with one less worms. That breaks the rule, ok. However, Mega-Adnan didn't feel harmed by this. Submitting us to having to play again, for an error that was not caused by us, hurts proportionality. This caused me frustration, because I would have to try to win again and because of the feeling that my victory was useless.
If I was asked if I wanted to play again I would say: it depends. Mega Adnan thinks he lost because he had 7 worms instead of 8? If the answer was yes, I would play again. If the answer was no, I wouldn't want to play again, because was no harm to him.

Subjecting myself to the frustration of canceling my win, the mental fatigue of trying to win again, all because of a formality of one less worm, and a mistake that wasn't caused by me or Mega-Adnan? For me, this hurts any reasonableness. It's not caring about my well-being, and giving exaggerated value to a rule that was broken and that didn't harm my oponnent.

[TheKomodo]

I also don't think the game should be played with 7 worms. But, as I said, it was an error caused directly by Komito. Me and Mega failed because we didn't saw the mistake, but it wasn't a mistake caused directly by us. Ultimately, Mega and I were forced to repeat the game because of mistake by a third person. So I think we should be asked if we wanted to repeat the game or not.

Albus, you keep saying the same thing which to generalize boils down to you saying your opinion and feelings are more important than what is fair for everyone(Limited to the 80hp Cup specifically as an individual event).

You are speaking with personal emotions(I'm not saying that is bad), you are not looking at the bigger picture and how this decision impacts everyone and what is the fairest way to treat everyone equally.

Yes, this situation absolutely sucks! I fully agree, I feel like a total idiot for putting 7 worms instead of 8 worms.

I will accept all negativity aimed towards me for this careless mistake and move on with my life, making sure to pay extra attention to not make the same mistake ever again.


I've explained in great detail why sticking to this strict rule is better for equality for all players, compared to allowing any situation like this to be given special treatment.

You originally complained in private to me that you don't care about who won or who lost, it's more about the time spent.

Now I'm actually going to ask you to consider something else and ask you to attempt to relate.

Hundreds, possibly thousands of players in the history of Worms Armageddon since 1999 have had to replay matches, or had their matches voided because of various mistakes made, the different reasons and conditions aren't as important as the following point.

If I were to add up all the games since 1999 i've had to restart while having favourable conditions, only to have the game swing the other way after restarting, we'd be talking hundreds of hours.

For Clanners, countless Elites and Team17 matches restarted as there is no easy way to continue, even after spending 20-30 minutes in a game, sometimes we've even had to restart several times. Roper, Hysteria, BnG, WxW, Shopper etc, all has potential for accidents to happen which in turn makes players spend more time than they wanted to and can completely change which team performs better and ends up winning.

Now think about all the other people who have had the same or similar situations.

Yes it sucks! It absolutely sucks! Though I ask you to have some compassion.

In this situation I cannot win, there is no perfect solution, it's a catch-22, either decision I make is harmful to at least someone. I have to play the bad guy and it sucks.

If I allow the game, then it opens the flood gates for even bigger problems and I would have to start giving each player special unique treatment and others can and likely will complain about that. Anyone who has a disciplined personality can complain another players game was not played fairly with the correct scheme.

If I void the match, then it directly affects the people involved and they can complain it's not fair they had to play again.

Either way, there is no way to make this decision without someone being upset because the damage has already been dealt because of the mistake.

There is no way to approach this where everyone wins, though the decision I made was made because I strongly believe over time it will cause less issues.

Whether we allow these situations or not in the future won't stop accidents from happening, it's all about minimizing risk and influencing players to be more aware and focused making sure games are set up correctly.

To summarize, neither decision works for everyone, though I strongly believe making a decision that treats everyone equally and can influence players to be more cautious and pay more attention is more important and beneficial to everyone rather than the alternative which can influence leniency which can influence players to be more careless and distracted.

Yesterday I asked Mega Adnan on discord if he thought it was unfair that he lost because he played with 7 worms, and he replied as follows:

Albus - Hi Mega. I didn't ask at the time. But I would like to know your opinion. What did you think of komito's decision for us to do the rematch? Did you just play because it was determined by komito, or did you play because you really thought it was unfair to play with 7 worms?
Mea Adnan - Hae, well I wouldn't have mind the 7 worms. But since the rules are same for everyone, it wouldn't be nice if we just go with our own rules.

I've changed the colour from yellow to red as I can barely see the yellow on a white theme lol.

So Mega`Adnan is being quite vague there, and I don't blame him. Because of this vagueness i'm going to make an assumption and he can correct me if i'm wrong.

He was more than happy to accept a loss with the wrong scheme, though he believes my decision makes the rules the same for everyone and it wouldn't be nice if players just make up their own rules. By 'own rules' I assume he means using incorrect schemes and giving people special treatment for similar accidents/mistakes.


Edit:

I just saw your edit after I posted my reply, though to be honest it doesn't change what i've just said.

[Albus]

Komito, please be more concise. You are very wordy my friend! I'm sure some people don't read everything you write, not because what you write is bad (you say interesting things), but because you're too wordy.

[Mega`Adnan]

I wouldn't have minded playing with 7 worms. But since the rules are same for everyone, that would create a conflict if we go on our rules.
But still, it wouldn't be nice if someone won the game, and then in the end we realize that host made a mistake, then repeating the whole game all over again, then opponent wins.
I can rematch again if Albus wants to. (Even the last games were awesome with incredible knocks and tense etc. Please don't delete that stream recording, Komito was like surprised in that. )

[TheKomodo]

.

[Albus]

I wouldn't have minded playing with 7 worms. But since the rules are same for everyone, that would create a conflict if we go on our rules.
But still, it wouldn't be nice if someone won the game, and then in the end we realize that host made a mistake then repeating the game, then opponent wins.
I can rematch again if Albus wants to. (Even the last game was awesome with incredible knocks and tense etc. Please don't delete that stream recording, Komito was like surprised in that. )

Thank you Mega-Adnan. As the total was 3x2 between us (2x0 for me in the first match, then 2x1 for you in the rematch), I would like to try one last time and eliminate the feeling of injustice that this story has left. Thank you for understanding.

[TheKomodo]

Please don't delete that stream recording, Komito was like surprised in that. )

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[Albus]

Komito, please be more concise. You are very wordy my friend!

This is an odd request, I wouldn't ask you to change how you write, I believe people should express themselves in whatever way they are comfortable with.

I don't, and won't write a specific way to make people comfortable.

No, I didn't mean "how" you write, or your "style" of writing. Each person has their own unique way of writing. But never mind. This is not important.

[TheKomodo]

Komito, please be more concise. You are very wordy my friend!

This is an odd request, I wouldn't ask you to change how you write, I believe people should express themselves in whatever way they are comfortable with.

I don't, and won't write a specific way to make people comfortable.

No, I didn't mean "how" you write, or your "style" of writing. Each person has their own unique way of writing. But never mind. This is not important.

Since you spoke further and we've both edited it, i've decided to remove this from above and paste is here instead:

Komito, please be more concise. You are very wordy my friend!

This is an odd request, I wouldn't ask you to change how you write, I believe people should express themselves in whatever way they are comfortable with.

I don't, and won't write a specific way to make people comfortable.

Edit - Thinking about this a bit more.

On stream I actually speak differently than to people around here where i'm from. Although that's kind of different I guess... My native dialect can be difficult to understand to non-native people, even some English people can have trouble understanding the Scottish dialect if we don't speak slower and pronounce words with clearer English dialect.

I doubt the possibility of making my posts more concise, i'd struggle because the way I think and feel needs to come out exactly as that and i'd feel like i'm a different person if it comes out any other way.

As for your extra edit:

I'm sure some people don't read everything you write, not because what you write is bad (you say interesting things), but because you're too wordy.

I am well aware of this risk, i've had mixed feelings about the way I post over the years, some really appreciate it, some really despise it.

Though i'm sure those who actually care enough, take the time to read, and those who don't, well that's their choice really.

The following quote is one of my biggest inspirations for self-esteem, self-respect and confidence:

"It doesn't matter who you are or what you do, there will always be haters who will hate anything, even inanimate objects. Do what you love doing and have fun doing it, believe in yourself and the right people will come along, those are the ones who truly matter."

[Dario]

Yeah, sucks to think you played a cup game and in the end you were playing a funner. But sorry mate, the cup is with 8 worms. Players should have noticed that as soon as the first round started, can't blame it all on the host since in a strategic scheme it is kind of expectable for players to be aware of where each of their worms is as soon as the round starts.
It's awesome that you guys decided to play an extra game , can't wait for another amazing stream.

[Albus]

I don't, and won't write a specific way to make people comfortable.
(...)
Though i'm sure those who actually care enough, take the time to read, and those who don't, well that's their choice really.

I wouldn't go this way Komito. For example, I might like to read a writer in general, but I might not like an excerpt from his book where that writer was too wordy. I will read it the same way, but I would have preferred that he had said it differently. Because I care to read what you write, I made this suggestion. If I didn't mind, I wouldn't read or say anything. But let's forget about this offtopic matter.

[zuck]

So let me get this straight: Albus and Mega`Adnan scheduled a cup match, Komito hosted it for them but zucked up the settings, so they had to play a rematch, which Mega`Adnan won. And since it's a legit victory for Adnan, why do they have to rematch again? I don't get it.

I realize it's painful for Albus to admit his defeat, but boy is it a deserved victory! Adnan did some incredible moves!

[Albus]

So let me get this straight: Albus and Mega`Adnan scheduled a cup match, Komito hosted it for them but zucked up the settings, so they had to play a rematch, which Mega`Adnan won. And since it's a legit victory for Adnan, why do they have to rematch again? I don't get it.

I realize it's painful for Albus to admit his defeat, but boy is it a deserved victory! Adnan did some incredible moves!

"it's painful for Albus to admit his defeat" because of a stupid error (7 instead of 8 worms), that wasn't caused by me. I never had a problem admitting defeat.

[Albus]

So let me get this straight: Albus and Mega`Adnan scheduled a cup match, Komito hosted it for them but zucked up the settings, so they had to play a rematch, which Mega`Adnan won. And since it's a legit victory for Adnan, why do they have to rematch again? I don't get it.

I realize it's painful for Albus to admit his defeat, but boy is it a deserved victory! Adnan did some incredible moves!

Mega-Adnan said he didn't mind the fact that he played with 7 worms in the first game. I didn't mind either. So, for us, it was fair game, and adding to the last result, the total is 3x2 for me. So I think a rematch would be interesting.

Despite all the komito reasons, I remain with my position. I don't think what happened to me should happen to anyone. We need put things in the balance and making a judgment of proportionality and reasonableness.

Is it worth canceling a game, for a mistake that wasn't caused by the players, and that didn't generate a feeling of injustice in any of the players? There will hardly be a situation like this in the future. I invite you to look for a similar situation throughout the history of cups and tournaments in TUS, where a game was played with one worm missing and nobody noticed it during 1 hour of play, only noticing it after the game was reported. In other words, this is a very peculiar situation that will possibly never happen again. So you want to make a big deal out of it? Why so much adherence to the rule if none of the players felt harmed by a mistake that was not caused by them and probably won't never happen again? There is no proportionality in this decision. Adopting this decision is being very attached to the rules, to the detriment of the player's well-being. Therefore, I maintain my starting position and suggestion that in similar situations in the future, the game should be maintained.

[zuck]

But you already had a rematch with the correct settings. You wanna keep playing until you win or what? That's not fair to Mega`Adnan.