wkWormOrder v. 1.2.0 released

[cgar]

Yea, sure, I'm gonna push X to doubt on that one.
So that's the luddite thing you misrepresented as wrong and now the ezpz worm order thing too.
Clearly you want to just decide that "a lot" of what I say is wrong because you disagree with it.

So now that it is plain as day that this module will in fact not create an unfair advantage, but merely bring transparency, there really should be no issue with it from anyone. Except of course those who just want to lord over others, naturally.

[Albus]

You clearly misunderstood the conversation cgar, we were already aware it's easy to get the order.

If it's easy enough, what difference will the module make in practice, if not freeing the person from looking at notes?

[Albus]

As far as I know, you can change your teams as much as you want, in TUS/ONL/CWT, so long as you follow a few basic guidelines, such as no blank worm names.

Though as we observed from tita last year, he changes his team every match, which means his opponents must pay very close attention every set of games.

I'll quote what I said in the other topic:



This image is an example of a team that tita likes to use in games. I like tita, he is one of my favorite players, but I don't think what tita does is cool. Trying to confuse the opponent with gibberish worm names in this way should not be allowed. He is the only player I know, among top players, who changes his team constantly. Others, like chuvash, Rafka, Dario, Mablak etc., always use the same team.



From everything that has been said so far, I have noticed that the biggest concern of some is that the module suggestions bring the possibility that what needed pen and paper could be done automatically by the module.

If the game had a built-in option for you to tag the weapons used by the enemy, and a better option to track the enemy team's sequence, without having to take your attention outside the game, no one would complain, right? Unfortunately, I think it would take a lot of effort to create something like this, integrated into the game.

What we have now, thanks to excellent programmers willing to use their time to help the community, is the possibility of these modules, and we should take this opportunity and thank them that they are here to help!

[TheKomodo]

Doing things manually and having them done automatically are 2 very different things.

[Albus]

Doing things manually and having them done automatically are 2 very different things.

Yes I know. And I understand that this is your biggest concern.

But understand the side of those who don't like having to leave the immersion of the game to take notes on paper.

If the game had proper internal tools for marking what the enemy uses and to track enemy team order, I would have nothing to complain about. But we don't. The option that we can have today, thanks to the availability of people with a lot of knowledge and willingness, would be the module. So I will be very pleased with it!

[TheKomodo]

Doing things manually and having them done automatically are 2 very different things.

Yes I know. And I understand that this is your biggest concern.

It is my 3rd biggest concern.

My biggest concern is that these modules can spiral out of control soon enough.

My 2nd biggest concern is the attitude and ignorance to be more focused on having luxuries than putting in manual effort, which leads directly to concern number 1.

[Albus]

My biggest concern is that these modules can spiral out of control soon enough.

So we should talk and encourage programmers to create anti-cheat tools that detect private modules etc. Nizikawa said that this is possible. People like me and others who are coming here publicly and in advance to talk about the module are not a problem. Problem is people who have technical knowledge and bad faith to create private modules etc. Even those without technical knowledge can hire someone to create cheating methods or ask for a friend to do it.

My 2nd biggest concern is the attitude and ignorance to be more concerned with luxuries than manual effort, which leads directly to concern number 1.

I think it's just a different perspective on the game. A little exaggerated words.

[TheKomodo]

So we should talk and encourage programmers to create anti-cheat tools that detect private modules etc.

Yes, i've already mentioned this, I agree.

Also i've love the ability to prevent people from using certain modules, like wkWormOrder and wkWeaponTracker(or whatever the name would be), so that people have the choice to play competitively with and without them.

Just like we allow some people to play schemes with various settings upon agreement, these modules should be treated with the same respect and choice. This way it helps everyone, not just one side.

Giving people a choice, is better than forcing people regardless how they feel.

That's my opinion anyway.

Edit - Oops, I wrote regarding instead of regardless.

[Sir-J]

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[Albus]

This discussion is going in circles.
Who decides changes here, TUS staff or players?
If TUS staff then have a private discussion and decide to ban these modules or not.
If players decide then make a poll so we can vote.
It is painful to read the same arguments repeated over and over again, for like 20 pages already. Stop this madness!

Perfect! I agree!
I also want to know the answer to your question.

[TheKomodo]

This discussion is going in circles.
It is painful to read the same arguments repeated over and over again, for like 20 pages already. Stop this madness!

I'm fine to keep talking about it, and honestly not concerned if other people don't like long conversations, even if some points are repeated.

I won't be swayed from reading or participating in something i'm passionate about simply because it requires more effort than usual.

Who decides changes here, TUS staff or players?
If TUS staff then have a private discussion and decide to ban these modules or not.
If players decide then make a poll so we can vote.

It's not as simple as who decides the changes here:

This actually gives me an idea to prevent cheating/abuse.

Quite frankly, the short conversation in this thread before has me a little concerned about how easy it is for skilled computer programmers to create and use their own modules to get an advantage in this game. Modules they make for private use only.

I believe there are ways to inspect replay files and detect if any extra module was loaded/used, am I wrong? Though the concern is, like avoiding real life police undetected, most replays are not checked on TUS if nobody raises an issue, or voices some concern about suspicious gameplay.

Would it be possible to develop some sort of code based algorithm which could scan games automatically as they are reported and compare them with a database of 'legal modules'. If anything new or illegal pops up, it would automatically send a message to a moderator or MonkeyIsland and it could be inspected further or deleted.

The replay format is publicly documented on Worms Knowledge Base and does not contain any data regarding the utilized WormKit modules or other technical aspects of runtime environment. So the proposed idea cannot be policed with the current stock version of WA.
However, I have an idea and technical knowledge how to implement a wormkit module that checks the integrity of WA's virtual memory space that could be used in online games to ensure that no modifications to .exe file or private wormkit modules are used. The integrity could be automatically verified by all parties participating in the match and also embedded in custom section of .WAgame replay and submitted replays could be automatically verified by TUS. This would prevent or at least significantly hamper cheating in league games.

On the other hand, seeing violent reactions from league players to even the simplest and harmless quality of life improvement made me realize that WA's competitive scene is just better left off alone.

This is why proceeding to make wk modules which affect everyone should be approached with caution.

It's not just as simple as what TUS Staff or Players decide to do when people can just decide without being traced anyway.

Though, on a positive note, nizikawa says he has an idea which could prevent or at least significantly hamper cheating in league games, hopefully this could be used to recognize specific wk modules players are using, and if a League decides it's not allowed, then people trying to use those modules would have their games voided and ultimately banned.

Then people could use them at their own will, and simply have to agree to individual 'Terms & Conditions' of competitive events they wish to participate in.

I would be satisfied with that.

[Sir-J]

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[TheKomodo]

Who is League?

A League as in, any League people compete in.

[Albus]

Who is League?

A League as in, any League people compete in.

I think he's asking for names.
Who decides at TUS, for example? Who gives the last word in this subject.

[TheKomodo]

For TUS(this entire website) - MonkeyIsland.