Current status of the League

[Chicken23]

Playoffs certainly need some review of the rules.

I think there was a max of no more than 3 rope based schemes?

Also Hysteria and Ariel could be grouped into 1 class, so if someone picked Hysteria, Ariel wasn't available.

Also wxw and shopper could be grouped into another class, so if someone picked shopper, wxw couldn't be picked?

However this could just create tactical picking of schemes to avoid something you suck at, eg. I'd always pick shopper so people didn't pick wxw vs me because its my weakest scheme.

ttrr and big rr/tower could be grouped with the same rule as above?

Perhaps a new thread for PO rules now that we have extra schemes in classic?

[Senator]

No comment on regular season vs playoffs?

I think there was a max of no more than 3 rope based schemes?

Nope. It's been allowed to pick TTRR, WxW, Roper, Shopper if that's what you mean.

Also wxw and shopper could be grouped into another class, so if someone picked shopper, wxw couldn't be picked?

Come on Chicken23! Roper and WxW are one of the most obvious couples in Allround league. WxW has been a Roper duplicate for a long time (since we've had hard WxW maps). It has been explained in other threads before.

If we use 6 classes, I would put them this way

BnG (could add Forts)
Hysteria/Aerial
Elite/Intermediate
Team17/Shopper
Roper/WxW
TTRR/Big RR

What's unique in T17 and Shopper is that you start with no weapons and must make the most of what you get. That's why they have a separate class and shouldn't be picked both. Big RR with TTRR is also controversial because the roping technique is closer to WxW/Roper. The reason why it's with TTRR is that they are both racing schemes and there's no battle.

3 classes would be more simple but they couldn't be used for the point system of regular season. And then you could pick 2 schemes that are very similar.

Max 2 picks per group
BnG, Hysteria, Aerial
Elite, Intermediate, Team17, Shopper
TTRR, Big RR, Roper, WxW

[TheKomodo]

Come on Chicken23! Roper and WxW are one of the most obvious couples in Allround league. WxW has been a Roper duplicate for a long time (since we've had hard WxW maps). It has been explained in other threads before.

What's unique in T17 and Shopper is that you start with no weapons and must make the most of what you get. That's why they have a separate class and shouldn't be picked both. Big RR with TTRR is also controversial because the roping technique is closer to WxW/Roper. The reason why it's with TTRR is that they are both racing schemes and there's no battle.

I just found this interesting to discuss.

I always thought of WxW of it as more of a combination of Shopper & TTRR, I don't even come close to understanding why you called it a Roper duplicate, any chance of elaborating on that?

From my experience Roper has it's own technique, Big RR shares the same techniques as WxW in terms of actual roping around, not attacking of course. TTRR is most similar to Big RR, but I still regard it as it's own technique because it's slower moving, but faster reacting and you need to learn a completely different type of reactions for the 2.

I've always consider Roper as thee entry level scheme for roping, but nowadays for anyone interested in roping i'd suggest Big RR.

As for classes i'd have the 3 classes exactly the same as you but add forts as follows.



Artillery:

Aerial / BnG / Forts / Hysteria

Strategic:

Elite / Intermediate / Shopper / Team17

Roping:

Big RR / Roper / TTRR / WxW



And to be honest, now that I see it laid out like that, i'd actually prefer to see 3 main leagues setup like this, and we could easily add schemes to each class whenever we feel one is worthy enough as a community, and only players who actually play that class, would have their opinion considered.

I would love this because I could focus on 1 every few months to keep things interesting

Either that, or the 3 scheme idea I suggested in the past.

[Senator]

I always thought of WxW of it as more of a combination of Shopper & TTRR

Big RR shares the same techniques as WxW in terms of actual roping around, not attacking of course.

So you thought of WxW as a combination of Big RR and Shopper, right?

I don't even come close to understanding why you called it a Roper duplicate, any chance of elaborating on that?

Sure.

You're still doing the same thing, roping very fast from A to B and then try to get an attack in, and after that, you pile, not to mention how the skills translate, in real WxW maps (those that barely give you enough time to attack) usually the best roper wins, as opposed to the best shopper (who is a totally different scheme in which time is spent in strategically using the weapons as opposed from roping from point to point). And really, most of the attacks in WxW are not different from roper, you barely get there and attack with whatever you can. Surely you can punish mistakes easier because it's easier to pile worms together and break havok in WxW, but on high skill level, it usually come downs to roping skill and crate luck, the way you attack is irrelevant because most of the time you're only gonna get one worm and if you can hit with a zook you can hit with a sheep, the only difference in the damage dealt, which is what makes WxW luck based, in part, but all down to roping.

Now I do agree that the roping style might seem more similar to that in RR because both maps use straight lines but not really, as you're doing mostly kicks, spikes and scrolling at full speed, something not very present in RR. I do consider roper to be the best part of roping but you just can't ignore the similarities.

We used to have a problem, that WxW and Roper were too similar to guarantee each being a scheme in classic league.

Now you've gone and made them even more similar to the point where WxW is simply a roper in linear maps, whilst Roper is a WxW in a random map.

And I've heard many opinions claiming WxW is similar to Roper, which I didn't think was justified at first, but with the advent of more difficult WxW maps, there's not much difference anymore.

[TheKomodo]

So you thought of WxW as a combination of Big RR and Shopper, right?

Well no, because WxW came before Big RR, and TTRR and Shopper already existed, Big RR is the newest out of all 4.

About being similar to Roper, I thought you were talking purely about roping style and technique, not the overall point of the scheme. But now that you mention it, there are really only 2 options when it comes to competitive roping schemes, racing and attacking.

I say WxW is closer to Big RR/Shopper than Roper because of how you actually rope around, use various weapons and have to think more. So I wouldn't even make a fuss that the overall point of WxW is too similar to Roper(going from a-b as fast as you can then attacking), because the simple fact is there isn't really any alternative goals to roping schemes, and the actual style of roping, and weapon variety is unique and interesting enough to make them different.

You could say in that sense that Hysteria and Aerial are the same because you do what you can in limited time, and kill your enemy by any means you can, and Elite/Intermediate are the same because you have to outsmart your enemy and use your limited weapons as best as possible.

But yeah, thanks for explaining, I was just curious

I mean, there is Warmer, but you can't really play quick League games with that cuz it's based purely on opinion and no pre-determined goal.

[Senator]

I say WxW is closer to Big RR/Shopper than Roper because of how you actually rope around

It really comes down to how tight the map is. Some people use Roper maps where it's too risky to even do a spike. And some WxW/Big RR maps have also "TTRR" parts. I can agree that WxW is Big RR + Shopper combined. WxW (hard map) is still closer to Roper than Shopper alone.

I'd prefer 6 classes over 3 because then we would see more different schemes. But let's see what other people have to say.

[TheKomodo]

I guess it comes down to which perspective you look at it then, when in actual fact it's really a solid combination of like Big RR/Shopper & Roper skills/experience combined, I guess with a hint of TTRR thrown in there as well, but personally I consider proper Big RR as maps without obstacles and without TTRR sections.

The only WxW scheme I thought resembled Roper was the one with health crates and zook without weapon drops, but that one wasn't very good, that really was someone trying to implement Roper into WxW.

[Senator]

I guess it comes down to which perspective you look at it then

I look at what's dominant in those schemes. In Roper and WxW it's roping. Who can rope fast from A to B more consistently usually wins. In Shopper it's weapon usage and tactics rather than roping fast.

I see you did too because you put WxW in the same group with Roper etc and Shopper in the same group with T17 etc. How could you after that say that WxW is actually closer to Shopper than Roper?

About the number of scheme classes. If we don't allow Hysteria+Aerial, should we still allow WxW+Big RR or BnG+Hysteria? In that sense 3 classes could be more justified.

[TheKomodo]

I see you did too because you put WxW in the same group with Roper etc and Shopper in the same group with T17 etc. How could you after that say that WxW is actually closer to Shopper than Roper?

Because as I said, WxW came before Big RR.

So when I think of where that inspiration came from to create WxW, I look at Shopper and TTRR.

Then I would imagine people thought roping in WxW maps were fun, because people started making WxW style Warmers, then Big RR came into play shortly after.

It's like TTRR because of how the maps are built with tunnels with thin walls and you have to rope far distances compared to Roper, and it's like Shopper because of weapon variation, experience needed with those weapons and attacking efficiently.

I don't think of it like roper "from a to b" because every scheme on worms(more or less) you have to kill worms, and roping in essence IS getting from A to B as fast as possible, so comparing it that way is pretty pointless.

I put Shopper in with Strategic schemes because it is more focused on strategic hiding / worm placement and knowledge of weapon use to maximize damage dealt.

[Senator]

I asked MI and he said we could add the rule Komo and I were talking about.

Players can pick
2 of BnG, Hysteria, Aerial
2 of Elite, Intermediate, Team17, Shopper
2 of TTRR, Roper, WxW, Big RR

For example, if you pick Elite and your opponent picks Shopper, you can't pick Intermediate or Team17 anymore.

Is this a good idea?

[TheKomodo]

Wait what 

Do you mean you and Chicken? I was just interested in the WxW thing, and categorizing the schemes into classes

I didn't realize it would have an affect on PO picking, I hope that doesn't annoy anyone 

[Senator]

I mean we could use the classes you and I were talking about.

[TheWalrus]

I asked MI and he said we could add the rule Komo and I were talking about.

Players can pick
2 of BnG, Hysteria, Aerial
2 of Elite, Intermediate, Team17, Shopper
2 of TTRR, Roper, WxW, Big RR

For example, if you pick Elite and your opponent picks Shopper, you can't pick Intermediate or Team17 anymore.

Is this a good idea?

It seems okay, but I'm not sure what it is exactly accomplishing.  Does this make it fundamentally better?  I've never walked away from a PO series thinking I've been screwed by picks.  Sometimes I've wished I had 3 picks instead of 2, but that is what is important about playoff seeding and attaining a good spot in the standings.

[Sensei]

Players can pick
2 of BnG, Hysteria, Aerial
2 of Elite, Intermediate, Team17, Shopper
2 of TTRR, Roper, WxW, Big RR

For example, if you pick Elite and your opponent picks Shopper, you can't pick Intermediate or Team17 anymore.

Well, this is a good change for all-rounders. Players who love few of the schemes and don't really play others, can only get disadvantage from it.
For example, if I ever get to PO's, from 1st group i love 2 of 3 schemes.. from 2nd I love 0 of 4.

I don't mind someone picking their best schemes and beat me in them. But I want to be able to pick mine best too and enjoy PO's.

If you really wanna make it fair do the Random Scheme Generator, as Darts players did with maps before matches:
http://www.worms-univers.com/worms-armageddon/dsp/

That way no one will cry about it. Although, it won't really be fair to higher seeds then, cause they should be allowed to pick first. Maybe allow higher seed to change one scheme from random generator!?

[Senator]

It seems okay, but I'm not sure what it is exactly accomplishing.

Playoffs should represent the league in miniature and tell which player masters a set of different kind of schemes the best. We can accomplish that by having every scheme type played in a PO series. KRD, Mablak, ropa etc defined what schemes a true all-arounder should master and they created 5 classes for a Bo5 playoff series. These 3 classes are basically a rougher version of the same idea. Previous all-around leagues have had similar rules for playoffs.

Most of the past PO series would have been OK according to this rule but there are also many examples where people either played only 2 of 3 scheme types or they played the same scheme type 3 times. A full PO series should test players' skills in all kind of schemes, and one scheme type alone shouldn't decide the outcome.

Sometimes I've wished I had 3 picks instead of 2, but that is what is important about playoff seeding and attaining a good spot in the standings.

I wouldn't be worried about the system not giving enough incentive to play. 1) there's a minimum game limit that can be adjusted 2) there's a limited number of PO spots 3) top seeded players get probably an easier opponent 4) the higher ranked player has still the advantage of choosing 3 schemes, he just can't pick the same scheme type 3 times.