New plan for leagues

[pr]

I think the site in general is awesome, however, In my opinion, the sites home page could be improved. I think the focus point of the home page, and the site in general, should be the league itself. W2's league site had the top 20 right centered on the page. It was motivation and you wanted your name there.

+1000.
fap fap fap at rating.

https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-stats/
no reasons to fap...

[DENnis]

Maybe removing "2 picks system" will fix it............

we could ask for example on AG , "Tus roper any1?", "tus ttrr any1?" "tus t17 any1"  etc........

it will fix also "free wins"

ofc if players want play more games to other shemes its no problem, as they want but concept is in "1 sheme pick"

Nice idea too, but I see a problem with the lamers who do noobbashing even more then, because they'll only play their best scheme. I think it'll work if you have the rule, if you want to reach the play offs you have to play at least about 10 different schemes. If people start to play almost only schemes where they r "pro" anyway, they might get too bored too fast because there won't be enough improvement and alternation for them. If u get bored because you don't try enough schemes you will quit wa sooner or later and that would be sad of many pros would make breaks of wa after some time then.

[franz]

continuing from my post in the hysteria thread

TEL is suffering from too many consecutive seasons, so I have an idea that will likely help TEL and other TRL schemes.

Multiple TRL's.  Split up the schemes by popularity, so you have different tiers.  One tier could be Elite/Hysteria, so those two schemes would alternate back and forth in their own tier.  All the other schemes could be their own tier, or you could split up even more by popularity (like another TRL tier could be TTRR/Team17 just looking at the Season Info page activity).  What this does is keep schemes more fresh by not repeating 2 times in a row or more, and it let's schemes not have to take forever to show up in TRL again since they'll be in their own tier.

As for classic, it seems active as ever, and I still like it, so I'm not sure a huge change even needs to happen. I am curious what others are thinking though, so I do enjoy hearing everyone's ideas.  I just haven't heard anything too convincing yet.

the '2 pick system' I feel should stay because of the same reasons everyone is saying -> fewer games will be agreed on in AG if everyone is asking for their scheme only. the '2 pick system' promotes activity and makes people expand their skills. the occasional free wins are unfortunate, but I feel the overall effect of the '2 pick system' is still positive and healthy for the league.

[Mablak]

I don't think MI's proposed ideas would work too well; even though every scheme would be pickable, most people wouldn't agree to play unless both picks were one of the main schemes. We can easily bring in new schemes and phase out inferior ones without this system, and it's probably better that way.

Not every popular scheme needs playoffs, and if there were more than a few playoffs for players to deal with, they'd never get played. The main thing that needs adjusting is the relative importance of schemes in the all-round league. Some old schoolers like me want hysteria and shopper removed, though it'd be best for them to at least be playable since we need new players. We should group schemes like this:

Roper/WxW
Elite/Intermediate
Team17/Shopper
BnG/Hysteria
RR

So that clans and players only have 5 areas where they need points. This way, old schoolers wouldn't ever feel forced to pick hysteria or shopper for points, when they can BnG or Team17 instead. The BnG/hysteria grouping kind of combines two schemes that a lot of people really don't want to play, and it slightly lessens their combined effect on ratings. This wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be an improvement :0.

[twistah]

good point, mab. that's my thought too. the classic league with the main skill schemes + removing or pairing shopper and hysteria would be enough already. i still like my idea of addition to the classic league to have maybe rope, elite, rr and what not in an own league that doesn't get resetted. so if you really are only into ropers or any other scheme you could play the scheme related league only. not sure about playoffs there then though, cos the top 8 players would prolly stay on those spots for ever

[HHC]

continuing from my post in the hysteria thread

Multiple TRL's.  Split up the schemes by popularity, so you have different tiers.  One tier could be Elite/Hysteria, so those two schemes would alternate back and forth in their own tier.  All the other schemes could be their own tier, or you could split up even more by popularity (like another TRL tier could be TTRR/Team17 just looking at the Season Info page activity).  What this does is keep schemes more fresh by not repeating 2 times in a row or more, and it let's schemes not have to take forever to show up in TRL again since they'll be in their own tier.

As for classic, it seems active as ever, and I still like it, so I'm not sure a huge change even needs to happen. I am curious what others are thinking though, so I do enjoy hearing everyone's ideas.  I just haven't heard anything too convincing yet.

Franz, what you basically want is the current system, but with more TRL's? Is that correct?

I don't feel much for that. It's not just TEL with issues, it was TRL too when not-so-popular schemes were picked (like BnG).

In that respect I'm more in favour for MI's approach. That one has countless TRL's, but at the same time, only 1 league really. (yet, the picking-thing etcetera seems too big a hurdle).


In all honesty, I think we should keep classic as it is. The system is fine people say, but the schemes.. And well, everybody has problems with different schemes. It wouldn't be right to throw out hyst because it's the most played scheme.. that can only hurt business.  
We can try to change the schemes into something better (an improved version of Hyst, an improved version of BnG, etc.), but hmm.. such attempts haven't been very fruitful in the past.  
Randomsteria is better than hysteria IMO, but can you really force that onto the community?


If anything, the only real change within our reach (IMO) is to find a way to give new energy to the current TRL's. TEL has been going on for too long. Elite could be added as just another TRL-scheme.

In that case we'd go down 1 league (only Classic, Free & TRL left), that's not a bad thing IMO.

A 4th league could be used though for experimental things:
1/3 of the seasons as a back-up TRL (for Elite mostly)
1/3 of the seasons as an alternative all-round league (with only all rope schemes, or only all default schemes for example [edit: or that each player remove 3 schemes-thing])
1/3 of the seasons as a TRL for the most popular FreeLeague scheme
 
Something like that  

[Anubis]

Seems like MI is removing the troll posts that derail the threads of importance. It is kind of scary to see Komo and Avi fuse together. It's ugly, but it's powerful. Makes me think of DBZ.

I still believe that separating the schemes would benefit the league. Most if not all of us focus on more than just 1 scheme anyway, in fact, I would be quite interested to see if there is anybody out there that only picks the same scheme over and over again. The point regarding less activity due to separating the schemes is there, sure, but it's minor. There is usually always 1 scheme both players can decide on to play, I am very sure of that since we have a broad variety of schemes.

It would get rid of a lot of avoider since people search specifically for their scheme they want to play. It is no secret that people search TUS games and avoid someone because he/she can pick whatever scheme he wants and you are simply forced to play it. Avoider would also have a harder time to get into playoffs by noob bashing, the scheme specific playoffs would only be reachable by beating players that are at least moderate enough to have fun in the league. The Majority of players in scheme separated league games would be players that are either good at the scheme, have fun in the scheme, or are willing to improve in the scheme since noone forced them to play. Of course if you face someone that is good, has fun and wants to improve in it will be a very hard enemy, which is in my opinion the core element of competition. People in leagues come together that enjoy the same thing in things they are good at and love to measure their skill. Not people that come together and pick a scheme based on where they get more points even though they suck at it or don't enjoy it and MOST IMPORTANTLY: Don't want to get better at it.

In separated leagues there would be a stronger sportsmanship, it's a scheme you care and like, you want it to have a good reputation. It's the fact that you don't want to lose in the scheme you want to reach playoffs in so you care about sportsmanship and fairplay, getting a bad reputation hinders you a lot more to get into your favorite scheme PO since it will have less players to play with, which is in this case a good thing. If you cow you will lose your valuable points, in current system it's different, since it's a scheme you don't care in it won't matter you can still reach PO with the remaining schemes. In the current league system it is possible to reach playoffs by completely ignoring 1 scheme, destroying the purpose of an allround league in the first place.

I believe the classic league system is perfect for clan matches since you have a way bigger pool of people to play with on each team. I think clan matches are the most balanced matches we can have in Worms regarding skill since both clans usually pick their strongest players in the scheme. Clan Matches should be way more important than singles.

[Aerox]

Separate leagues is avoid heaven.

If your name is Ryan or Mablak good luck finding a game in the ttrr league. And not just because these two rule roperacing but because it's a scheme that in nature makes it very easy to calculate your chances before the match starts.

edit: some of your reasons are very valid anubis it's just that for me they're not strong enough to lose what IMO a league should be centered around: declaring the best wormer (all arounder). But I accept things do change, so if that's not of importance nowadays then it makes sense to do without it. Although I find the league to be in part responsible for the motivation of the players, I'm not asking for playoff moderators to baby sit even more, their work is a hell.
But if I win a season I sure as hell want everyone to know. You should give more importance to winners. Perhaps an announcement post analyzing said player's season, something other than a badge in a profile no one is going to look at anyway.

[avirex]

oh why bother...


ropa is right with that post....


and splitting the league is just a horrible idea.. the community is small, (see, neither one of you play) so why make it smaller?

[Anubis]

You make it sound like ryan and Mablak are not beatable in ttrr, never do mistakes or can't have a bad day. There are a lot of people capable of defeating them in TTRR, you have 3 worms not 100 like in TTRR challenges. Of course schemes that involve no luck and only rely on skill have people that dominate it. That's the nature of skill based competition, that there is an elite group of people that dominate it.

[Aerox]

You make it sound like ryan and Mablak are not beatable in ttrr, never do mistakes or can't have a bad day. There are a lot of people capable of defeating them in TTRR, you have 3 worms not 100 like in TTRR challenges. Of course schemes that involve no luck and only rely on skill have people that dominate it. That's the nature of skill based competition, that there is an elite group of people that dominate it.

You know this. Now how many people in the community think like you and how many others would avoid them?

I'm not raising a question on if it would make sense for them to dominate or not, I'm raising the question on how hard it will be for them to find a game. They're just an example to illustrate a point.

[Anubis]

You make it sound like ryan and Mablak are not beatable in ttrr, never do mistakes or can't have a bad day. There are a lot of people capable of defeating them in TTRR, you have 3 worms not 100 like in TTRR challenges. Of course schemes that involve no luck and only rely on skill have people that dominate it. That's the nature of skill based competition, that there is an elite group of people that dominate it.

You know this. Now how many people in the community think like you and how many others would avoid them?

I'm not raising a question on if it would make sense for them to dominate or not, I'm raising the question on how hard it will be for them to find a game. They're just an example to illustrate a point.

Well I agree that the success of players dominating a scheme rely on other people without set-up games. Which is sad because such people don't understand the basic concept of competition and just avoid. Fair point.

[MonkeyIsland]

Mablak this is my deep point of view about schemes from what I've experienced in these years. I have never had a favorite scheme and as chakkman says, the variation of schemes always keep me excited and I've played a fair amount of each whenever I had a chance.

When someone play a specific scheme over and over, he'll get more familiar with it, gain experience, get to know the not-to-do list and so on. (captain obvious)
All these years, almost all the whining about a certain scheme came from the people who were new to that scheme. I can't stress that line enough. Also you are a very good case/player to know this because you're pretty good in Intermediate. I've had enough debates about how noobish Intermediate is. You know how many times people pointed out that Intermediate is a lucky scheme because it has random placements. Many people never bothered to look one step ahead of random placements to see that actually one of the skills is to manage random placements.
That being said, these arguments happen time to time about specific scheme and always starting from people who are new to the scheme and get confused about the events in the game and before they start gaining a little experience they start suggesting tweaks to the scheme which is way too soon.

One of the majors flaw people see in schemes is losing while having more worms or leading the entire game. When they lose a game they were leading, most of the times they think it is a scheme flaw rather than their own flawed tactics.

An example for that is when people lead in Intermediate with more worms and health point thinking their opponent is darksiding because he is doomed and has no choice, then SD comes and all worms become 1hp, now they lose because their opponent was actually wasting time for this moment. At this point, they get mad and try to tweak intermediate to have no hp reduction at SD. It is reasonable though, they were leading the game and in 1 turn they lost. But what they don't see is that the reason they lost was "not considering SD timing". More a tactic flaw rather than a scheme flaw.

The more we play a scheme, the more we gain experience, the more we see these tactic flaws and ultimately, we categorize that as less lucky, more skilled. (Generally speaking, not obvious cases like TTRR)

Now when you categorize the schemes like this:

Roper/WxW
Elite/Intermediate
Team17/Shopper
BnG/Hysteria
RR

The schemes are getting sacrificed for many people according to your point of view of schemes.
For example, you are truly an expert in TTRR and you have dedicated a category for TTRR because you know it damn pretty well. (I do believe that TTRR needs its own category) On the other hand, I've heard the phrase "TTRR is just a small version of WxW" several times. I'm sure it makes sense to many people here. So why not make it RR/WxW then? The reason is that you know TTRR deep to your bone and you are sure it has nothing to do with WxW.
I wonder how much Dario would accept the Elite/Intermediate category.
Team17/Shopper is the worst combination you made but clearly drawing your point of view. You are putting WxW and TTRR together there because you think "Team17 is just some version of Shopper". The post has gotten long enough, I won't go into details why.

So my question is this:
If we gather all "experts" in every scheme to make categories, wouldn't our final conclusion be like dedicating one category for each scheme?

I'll reply to other posts later. This post is long enough :/
@Anubis,
Are you planning to come back at all?

[Dub-c]

Roper/WxW

Roper has nothing to do with wxw. RR and shopper have much more similarities to wxw.

[Aerox]

Roper/WxW

Roper has nothing to do with wxw. RR and shopper have much more similarities to wxw.

Why not? Because there's crates with weapons instead of health crates? You're still doing the same thing, roping very fast from A to B and then try to get an attack in, and after that, you pile, not to mention how the skills translate, in real WxW maps (those that barely give you enough time to attack) usually the best roper wins, as opposed to the best shopper (who is a totally different scheme in which time is spent in strategically using the weapons as opposed from roping from point to point). And really, most of the attacks in WxW are not different from roper, you barely get there and attack with whatever you can. Surely you can punish mistakes easier because it's easier to pile worms together and break havok in WxW, but on high skill level, it usually come downs to roping skill and crate luck, the way you attack is irrelevant because most of the time you're only gonna get one worm and if you can hit with a zook you can hit with a sheep, the only difference in the damage dealt, which is what makes WxW luck based, in part, but all down to roping.

Now I do agree that the roping style might seem more similar to that in RR because both maps use straight lines but not really, as you're doing mostly kicks, spikes and scrolling at full speed, something not very present in RR. I do consider roper to be the best part of roping but you just can't ignore the similarities. It used to be very obvious in leagues like LW, were they actually had very high skilled WxW players, that were the same people highly skilled in roper, many of them couldn't elite or bng, they were very easy to beat in things like shopper with a bit of head.