Yes, both are valid points, but I feel like my side of this debate has the advantage of instigating the main priority of Ropers, collecting a crate before attacking, it's more logical to follow CBA where possible.

w2w is merely a backup plan, it should never take priority over CBA.

Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 07:48 PMI'm still trying to catch old wormers through emails and skype, 99% of them all told me W2W was always mandatory (exact words). Written or unwritten rules, it always felt that way.

Again, I ask, who exactly are you contacting? Straight up I don't believe what you are saying, and if it's true, do they realize the situation we are discussing involves crates still being available?

I am not calling you a liar, I just don't believe you because I don't have any reason to without evidence.

Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 07:48 PMI can't really believe you've had this opinion since '99 Komo...

I've honestly never had to think about it before, all I am saying is this is something I have never heard of before, there is no evidence to support it, which goes both for official rules and these so called people you are talking to.

yeah these people I'm talking about might not be relevant for you, but they played a bunch of ropers before 2007, most of them are Spanish, you will not remember them and I don't need to name any of them since they wanted to vanish from this community.

I don't mind if rules will be changed after a debate, all I'm saying is how it's always been and surprised you didn't feel the rules were the same way after many years.


If it's a backup plan, then how about getting rid from it as suggested earlier? Keep crates going, so that you don't need a backup plan. If CBA is so important for you guys, KEEP CRATES GOING. If CBA is more important for you, REMOVE SUDDEN DEATH. Doesn't my point make more sense than yours now... Either keep sudden death with its right nature, or get rid from it. Don't make things complicated full of IFs.

Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 08:02 PM
yeah these people I'm talking about might not be relevant for you, but they played a bunch of ropers before 2007, most of them are Spanish, you will not remember them and I don't need to name any of them since they wanted to vanish from this community.

It's relevant to this debate though lol, by any chance is it possible they are discussing the rules of ligaworms? That Spanish League? I hope you can understand from our point of view how we would be skeptical to just take your word for it.

Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 08:02 PMIf it's a backup plan, then how about getting rid from it as suggested earlier? Keep crates going, so that you don't need a backup plan.

I like this idea but not sure if I would support it or not because SD and w2w does add a different tactic and interest to the scheme, keeps it from getting to boring so i'd have to think about that.

Both schemes without SD and with SD as long as rules are clear, are both good for me.

About the possibility of no SD...

Based on contrasting experiences playing roper back in cl2k/FB and playing roper now, the level of ropers is now far higher and I don't often witness SD kicking in anymore when healths are still ~200hp.

Back in the old days there was occasionally the need for SD due to the sheer amount of failed attacks/crates left.

This in my opinion does open up the possibility to remove SD completely.

Quote from: Komito on May 13, 2015, 08:15 PM

SD and w2w does add a different tactic and interest to the scheme.

Exactly, and it starts when the crates stop dropping. From this moment, the remaining crates laying in the map directly become a bonus, and w2w is the new mandatory rule. Why the need to delay the w2w rule? All aspects have been said already. Either w2w straight when sd starts or remove it...

Quote from: Ryan on May 13, 2015, 08:26 PMBased on contrasting experiences playing roper back in cl2k/FB and playing roper now, the level of ropers is now far higher and I don't often witness SD kicking in anymore when healths are still ~200hp.

Back in the old days there was occasionally the need for SD due to the sheer amount of failed attacks/crates left.

Really? I've experienced/witnessed quite the opposite, maps were much more open during the era of WACL, both in Warmers and Propers,games were usually finished faster than today because the crates didn't land in such ridiculous tunnels or players hiding in such evil hides.

Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 08:31 PM
Exactly, and it starts when the crates stop dropping. From this moment, the remaining crates laying in the map directly become a bonus, and w2w is the new mandatory rule.

Lol, back the truck up there, you couldn't be further from the truth:

SD starts when the alotted time runs out, when the time runs out it stops crates from falling, only when all remaining crates are gone the w2w rule should be mandatory, it's the logical choice.

Quote from: Komito on May 13, 2015, 08:41 PM

Quote from: Ryan on May 13, 2015, 08:26 PMBased on contrasting experiences playing roper back in cl2k/FB and playing roper now, the level of ropers is now far higher and I don't often witness SD kicking in anymore when healths are still ~200hp.

Back in the old days there was occasionally the need for SD due to the sheer amount of failed attacks/crates left.

Really? I've experienced/witnessed quite the opposite, maps were much more open during the era of WACL, both in Warmers and Propers,games were usually finished faster than today because the crates didn't land in such ridiculous tunnels or players hiding in such evil hides.

Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 08:31 PM
Exactly, and it starts when the crates stop dropping. From this moment, the remaining crates laying in the map directly become a bonus, and w2w is the new mandatory rule.

Lol, back the truck up there, you couldn't be further from the truth:

SD starts when the alotted time runs out, when the time runs out it stops crates from falling, only when all remaining crates are gone the w2w rule should be mandatory, it's the logical choice.

Any SD game I've been involved in, including clanners, one team were in the driving seat and looked capable of "finishing it off" - SD just simply sped it up.
The game didn't feel like it was dragging either.

I can understand why open maps are used less now - even I would manage to attack every turn in an open map.
That lends itself to me thinking that the standard of ropers is higher now and removing SD could be viable.

Going back to the CBA vs w2w - there is no only logical option. If there was, we wouldn't be talking about it.

This shouldn't turn into what old schoolers think is right. It's about having a clean and clear rule, I know people love debating and discuss about the most idiotic things, but this will not make progress, all 3 options are valid and reasonable. Be it CBA exclusively, w2w exclusively or having the choice. Can we at least agree to that? We are discussing about a rule that will apply maybe once out of 100 games (being optimistic). For it to happen the game needs to get to SD and the previous player has to miss his crate. So just word it nicely and pass it through so we can start talking about more severe issues than this.

We need more focus, out goal was to make clear rules in the first place and yet we are still at this topic from 2 days ago. By this speed we will be done with rules in 10 years.

Kai I don't think this is an idiotic subject, I always wondered why all guys at my work and my friends around me sit and talk about football to such an extent and debate about referee decisions and rules and transfers etc. I am the same when it comes to discussing WA, I love every aspect of it and enjoy talking/debating and arguing about every detail I can, whether I am right or wrong I always learn new things and better understand how people from around the world think and feel about schemes and rules.

Ryan, I believe the most logical choice in this situation is that CBA takes priority, you believe w2w takes priority, we both understand why, so that's cool, it's nice to have a debate that doesn't resort to insults for once

The outcome of this grand discussion will be so minor it's not worth the time and should be spent on bigger gameplay influencing rules. That's my point. Also am I the only one that does not see this as a thread of being wrong or right, it's about making fair and clear rules. Well, at least I thought so. If people want to discuss about whos is right or wrong, I will just concede out of this because that's not what I am here for.

All 3 options are fair, and can be worded clear. So just agree on one, all of them will have little impact to roper. Nevermind I give up. xD

Quote from: Komito on May 13, 2015, 09:08 PM
Ryan, I believe the most logical choice in this situation is that CBA takes priority, you believe w2w takes priority, we both understand why, so that's cool, it's nice to have a debate that doesn't resort to insults for once

Yep, all good - I enjoy the healthy debate too (otherwise I wouldn't bother posting )

Anubis, a good way to trigger these discussions is by complaints and this situation is a good starting point (even though as you can tell, I agree it is a very rare situation).
Otherwise, we are just on standby for the next ambiguous complaint!

I am thinking we could utilise a rules forum for this and have a thread dedicated to a topic/situation.
This way, topics don't lose momentum and we get to a conclusion - we don't go off topic so easily either.

Quote from: Anubis on May 13, 2015, 09:12 PM
The outcome of this grand discussion will be so minor it's not worth the time and should be spent on bigger gameplay influencing rules. That's my point.

It's obviously worth the time to us, the only thing not worth the time is you saying it's not worth the time

What kind of argument is that. My approach is pragmatic, everything I do is pragmatic, logical and reasonable. At least I try to. Arguments for the sake of finding out whos right/wrong is not my business and I genuinely feel they are not worth the time. You think otherwise, fair enough.

We were having a conversation about where the rule derived from, how long it had existed, who knew, should we change it, what options do we have, and more... Seriously, did you even read it?

You are being ignorant right now Kai, and honestly I feel insulted by your lack of respect right now, you aren't even trying...

When sudden death is on, W2W is mandatory and CBA is optional.

I have questioned myself in some roper games ''Why do the player get crate and then attack the opposing player in SD?'' The conclusion to this is... Time. I think, there has never been a clear rule in regards to this.  So time and its generation has decided what is and what is not. 

In my honest opinion, if there is a crate lurking about in SD mode, I will automatically apply myself to W2W because it seems more logical to me.

Get on with a poll so we can vote, if this community believes in democracy.