Quote from: Kradie on May 29, 2016, 11:10 PM
This is no problem in ZAR, bazooka every turn

@ Skunk: I feel you are very bigoted to the idea that Sudden Death ''can'' work as a finale phase of a game, to assist the annihilation of opposing teams. I think Sudden Death is not there to annoy you, it is a transition to a new strategy. This is evidential in scheme such as Intermediate, Elite, and Team17.

I agree

i will... its like removing AFR from shopper... oh wait, tus did...

Quote from: Ryan on May 29, 2016, 02:36 PM
Also, 4 star bazooka alone gives player 1 a bigger advantage especially when they get a successful attack first turn.

With bazooka first player 1 has like 70% and player 2 30% chance to hit properly (dibz's numbers). Without bazooka first the percentages would be like 90% for player 1 and 80% for player 2 (these numbers are out of my head). If u go 2nd, would u prefer bazooka first on/off? Player 1 may get to hit u with 4 star bazooka while u can hit him just with a mine but that's a meaningless disadvantage compared to the current disadvantage.

Bazooka 1st would be just fine if it was somewhat equal for both players but it isn't. It makes it even worse for the 2nd player who is already one turn behind from the start. Ofc if you are a bad/average roper you can turn the handicap around by messing up the bazooka turn.

i see this this way:

so what that u are first? player 2 can hide in every best hide he can find on the entire map when he start and those places are often easy to drop a mine but hard to shot well with sucky wind u usually get when u are first.

Player 1 has to hide somewhere close to player 2 coz there is no chance he can hide everywhere in his retreat time and if he dont hit player 2 he cant take his best hide so its preasure to hit well coz if u dont then 2nd player gets big advantage immediately and remember that u often get crate in the opposite side of the map from the hide of opponent so even if u start on middle top it takes u time to get it and remember that u mostly get sucky wind when u are first also...

so plz dont mess with the roper as i play it 15 years without any changes and i dont remember any best players to complain about it and dont see any logical point to change it, has some respect to the tradition.

ahahah don 't be so angry, my raging bull cousin 

Quote from: theredi on May 30, 2016, 10:17 AM
so plz dont mess with the roper as i play it 15 years without any changes

Guess you don't remember when they removed the 1x Dynamite that came with the scheme then. The one weapon that gave the scheme another layer of tactical depth, even if barely.

Quote from: Aerox on May 30, 2016, 10:32 AM

Quote from: theredi on May 30, 2016, 10:17 AM
so plz dont mess with the roper as i play it 15 years without any changes

Guess you don't remember when they removed the 1x Dynamite that came with the scheme then. The one weapon that gave the scheme another layer of tactical depth, even if barely.

This. I remember dynamite as being a part of the scheme, and I wouldn't mind playing w/ it again, tbh.


As far as what I said about SD, I don't deny it does bring about new strategy, but it's an artificial pressure that doesn't have much of a purpose, IMO, other than to 'shake things up.' Most games end fairly shortly after SD anyway... so why not just extend the round time by 10 minutes? The only time ropers ever drag out is if both players are noobing it up and don't attack, or are just getting extremely shit crates. SD in roper interrupts the flow of the game, and I don't like it.

SD is fine for certain schemes, but in general I would prefer to play without it. How many times have you played a T17 only to draw due to both teams drowning? It sucks and feels like a huge waste of time.

I dont remember many things, i didint play w2 online, when was that? I dont remember any dyna since wwp

Quote from: theredi on May 30, 2016, 05:19 PM
I dont remember many things, i didint play w2 online, when was that? I dont remember any dyna since wwp

Dynamite was a part of the W:A roper scheme from the very beginning. It was carried over from W2. Somewhere along the way some league people apparently decided that they didn't like it, so they got rid of it.

Denied.

thats why i said 15, not 17 

Yeah better keep a rule that makes the first-turn advantage bigger

dibz's (#1 in tus Roper lately) winning percentage when he goes

1st : 80% (100 games sample against good/average ropers)
2nd: 65% (100 games sample against good/average ropers)

It's the one turn lead that u have at start + easier bazooka turn.

The bazooka turns can affect the result this way (assuming the rest of the game goes perfectly):
Both players make similar damage or no damage -> 1st player wins
1st player makes no damage while 2nd player makes ~20 or full damage -> draw
1st player makes ~20 dmg while 2nd player makes full damage -> draw

The 1st player can lose his lead but not lose the game (unless he hits himself with bazooka or something else stupid).

Now look at dibz's numbers:
1st player makes full damage by 70% chance -> 1st player retains the lead
1st player makes no damage by 12% chance -> 1st player retains the lead unless 2nd player uses his 58% chance to make ~20 or full damage
1st player makes ~20 damage by 88% chance -> 1st player retains the lead unless 2nd player uses his 30% chance to make full damage

There's greater chance for losing the lead on first turns when bazooka first is on and not off. It's however more probable that the 1st player increases his lead instead.

*bump*

Quote from: Aerox on May 29, 2016, 11:39 AM
I mean, if you're going to propose a change why not go the whole way?

- Only the worm going first needs to zook first turn.

Now that I think about it, this rule wouldn't be that bad (Anubis suggested that too). Even if the 1st player couldn't attack with bazooka (because of too good bazooka hide) while the 2nd player could attack with a mine/nade, the game would be going to be a draw. Not that unfair, is it?

Even avirex approves the removal of zook 1st!!

Quote from: avirex on March 14, 2013, 07:40 PM
speaking of that....  "zook first" was adopted from worms2 rope scheme, but there was a reason for it.... it was because there was random placement, there was no tele placement on worms2...

so parachute was disabled (so you could not knock if your worm was placed on top) and zook was in first turn, so there was less chance to get fd.


whats the purpose of zook first in w:a? just gives the first player a big advantage, and adds (even more) factor of luck, due to wind...


maybe we should change roper scheme to all weaps first turn???...

So bazooka 1st is there to make it harder to attack from top hide. What's the reason for having it for the 2nd player who starts from the bottom? To give him like 12s in a 15s map??

So if Obama says remove all the nukes, should the rest follow?

We should do an experimental cup with this setting, then we'll see how it's going to be received.