dST v3 S3 - Comments & Feedback

[Sensei]

hmm, weird rule 

I hit middle of the bull, and bounce of. It's no score.
But when someone hit between 2 numbers, just take lesser one, you deserved it..


And normaly, unlucky for me, that decided winner of dst. Second again, short for 1 pt. Ah...



EDIT: hurz watched whole game, it turned out i misscounted few shots, so instead of being last, me and you (adnan) are tied for first place on 22.

So, if my calculations are right - if you win SD on classic, we're tied for 1st place in DST, and must throw another SD with random map.

If i win first SD (on classic map), i'm a winner of DST. Ring me when you're online, so we can play that.


Ty Hurz!

[Hurz]

i watched replay, adnan and sensei got 22, xan 21. sensei miscounted second but last worm (was 16, threw 3, counted 18).

bout the "middle of bulls" hit: thats just what i was trying to explain: you fell from too high so received fall damage. couldnt have landed anyway. if you throw good and close on time but hit edge wich avoids landing you receive rebound score.

edit: edit.

[Mega`Adnan]

Oh well, Sensei and I gonna play SD after all.

[spleen17]

hmm isnt it self-explaining that if your shot wouldnt have landed anyway you cant count a rebound? its only on classic map btw.

Not really. I am trying to look from the perspective of a new darts player here.

The Rebound Rule:


If your worm rebounds off the target on another area of the map or into the water you add the lesser of the 2 scores.

For example:

If you rebound off the target between 3 and 5, your score is 3.
If you rebound off the target between 1 and 0, your score is 0.

0 = Water/Miss/0

*On any map where you must close the drill before touching the target board, the rebound rule only counts if you close the drill 1st, this can be checked by pressing "S" repetitively within a replay*

There is nothing about fall damage relating to Classic, and nothing on the map page either. He closed drill and hit the board so the rules seem to suggest that it is a legal rebound.

It's not the first time we've had problems this season either, there have been other rules used that are not on the map page (Love and Shadowman's Sonic map). I really think we need to go through all map pages and make sure everything is clear, particularly on the older maps that were made before all fairness requirements started coming in. (I would be willing to help with this). All rules need to be written down clearly so that they can be looked up in case of a dispute, at the moment it is like there are 2 people who know all the rules and we have to ask them each time... doesn't seem right to me.

Sorry for the rant, I am quite concerned about this atm though. The perspective from people outside the darts community is that we just make the rules up as we go along, and I can kind of see how they would think that to be honest...

[TheKomodo]

There is nothing about fall damage relating to Classic, and nothing on the map page either. He closed drill and hit the board so the rules seem to suggest that it is a legal rebound.

Well 1st off, fall damage has absolutely nothing to do with Darts, considering there is no fall damage in the 1st place...

Anyway, with Classic Darts and Classic Crates, it's all about the angle and speed you throw, we all know(or should know) that in order to land on this map, you must close the drill so you can "stick" to the target, however if your angle is too high, your worm will start to "fall" which makes it impossible to stick to the target anymore, THAT is what makes the shot void, whether drill is on or off, and that is why some rebounds are classed as void, because they wouldn't have stuck to the target anyway.

It's not the first time we've had problems this season either, there have been other rules used that are not on the map page (Love and Shadowman's Sonic map).

I take full blame for the rules missing on Love map, I thought I had updated it when I hadn't, I posted the updated rules to the dS Team Challenge, I am going to have dinner soon i'll update then if I remember...

As for Shadowmans maps, there isn't anything we can do unless MI gives us permission to edit those?

at the moment it is like there are 2 people who know all the rules and we have to ask them each time... doesn't seem right to me.

Well, that isn't entirely true, while it's true that me and Hurz know everything, many things we are asked are things players are able to resolve themself if they did their research.

The perspective from people outside the darts community is that we just make the rules up as we go along, and I can kind of see how they would think that to be honest...

Technically we DO make things up as we go along, we are always updating/adding/removing rules to make the scheme as fair as possible, because Darts is still growing, but we are definitely not unfair.

However, I know what you are getting at, a few players have accused us of using the rules to our favour which isn't true, i've always been unbias when it comes to deciding scores for example, even when it includes myself I will give myself less points if I believe it's correct, I have always been honest with players regardless if I like them or not, whether they are in dS or not.

There has been a few moments where people haven't understood the rules that we've tried to explain, this is either due to bad wording, or misunderstanding because of people not knowing English well enough, however we have never introduced a brand new rule in the heat of a moment, any rule that is applied is always applied AFTER the moment it was needed.

The only thing that comes close to this is the incident with the dS Tour Season 2 Playoffs with MarianRV, however that wasn't a brand new rule as explained, it was a rule of dS Tours that we forgot to add into the Playoffs section, had there not already been a rule about map usage, there is no way we would have asked for a rematch.

I hope this clears things up for you.

[spleen17]

Anyway, with Classic Darts and Classic Crates, it's all about the angle and speed you throw, we all know(or should know) that in order to land on this map, you must close the drill so you can "stick" to the target, however if your angle is too high, your worm will start to "fall" which makes it impossible to stick to the target anymore, THAT is what makes the shot void, whether drill is on or off, and that is why some rebounds are classed as void, because they wouldn't have stuck to the target anyway.

This should be on the map page, it is unreasonable to expect someone who is just starting to learn darts to know this. Either that or add some terms and definitions to the Darts scheme page like the difference between "flying" and "falling" (ie. if the worm starts to tumble in the air before hitting rather than bouncing off the target whilst still upright).

Well, that isn't entirely true, while it's true that me and Hurz know everything, many things we are asked are things players are able to resolve themself if they did their research.

This is the problem I have, everything should be written down. The Love rule, the Shadowman scoring and now this Classic rebound rule are not written anywhere (except on an old challenge page in the case of Love, but I don't think anyone would think to look there).

And it is not to do with you being fair or not, obviously in the case of dS tours we all know each other well and will be happy to go along with your decisions... but darts is a league game too and there could easily be disputes between dS players and non-dS players where the rule is clearly not written down, in this case it would be much better if it did not look like dS is making up the rule afterwards (even though we aren't).

I hope this clears things up for you.

Again, this is not a case of me asking a question or not understanding something. I am making a serious point about something which I think should be changed. I don't like the idea of having unwritten rules all over the place, it is confusing / off-putting for new players and will ultimately stop darts from growing.

I would like to suggest that we ask MI to update all map pages so that everything is covered. Or, failing that, at least have some kind of master thread which lists all the applicable league rules for each map. I can start on this later if you like, and post the first draft in our private forum for your approval? 

I'm not trying to start an argument or to criticise you in any way mate, I know a ton of work has gone into darts already and we all  appreciate it   I just think it would be better if anyone could look up the rules for themselves easily, I mean you and Hurz could both go inactive at some point and what would we do then?

[TheKomodo]

Before we go any further I should add this - About maps, I am talking about maps in the TFL map pack only, all other maps are considered either luck based, too random or way too difficult and players use them at their own risk.

This is the problem I have, everything should be written down. The Love rule, the Shadowman scoring and now this Classic rebound rule are not written anywhere (except on an old challenge page in the case of Love, but I don't think anyone would think to look there).

I've updated the Love map rules, for Classic Darts and Classic Crates we will have to write something to explain how to score rebounds properly there as it's quite complicated.

As I said there is nothing we can do about Shadowmans maps not having rules without MIs assistance, however, for example, the earlier query about Shadowmans Sonic map could have been solved by players themselves if they had followed the spike rule, which is the default rule for scoring, which only changes if a maps author writes unique rules(which we would advise against when it comes to targets and their cups).

I would like to suggest that we ask MI to update all map pages so that everything is covered. Or, failing that, at least have some kind of master thread which lists all the applicable league rules for each map. I can start on this later if you like, and post the first draft in our private forum for your approval? 

We can get in touch with MI and ask for permission to edit pages, as he won't know what to write unless we provide him with detailed instructions for each map, and even so with him being so busy I would imagine he would give us rights to edit the descriptions ourselves.

A master thread which lists all the applicable rules for each map, by this do you mean general Darts rules or unique map rules? Or even both... Personally I think it's a good idea in theory but I feel it could be useless as we already have all the rules in the Darts scheme page and all the unique map rules on the maps(granted some are missing eg. Shadowmans maps).

However it can't hurt to try it can it?

I mean you and Hurz could both go inactive at some point and what would we do then?

All I currently see that's wrong were the rules for "Love" which have been updated now, Shadowmans maps which have not been updated but to be honest they are all straightforward maps, only one with an issue was Sonic, so players use them at their own risk while we figure out how to edit them, the only fully confusing problem I can see is the Classic Darts and Classic Crates maps not fully explaining how rebounds work, apart from these 2 maps I see no reason for anyone not to be able to figure things out alone if they put effort into searching, myself and Hurz are there for when people get lazy or struggle to understand something, but apart from these few things mentioned, everything IS there for everyone to view.

It's simple for me to judge, and simple for Hurz to judge, but for some people it's impossible to judge even if they knew about it, so we will have to brainstorm and figure something out which is simple to understand for those 2 maps.

And when I said "I hope this clears things up for you", that means making you aware of the situation regarding the things you asked and what we plan to do about them, regardless whether you understand or not we WILL fix these problems.

Please do not hesitate to bring ANY other problems to our attention, also i'd like to thank you for the time, effort and level of comittment you are putting into Darts, this is part of the contribution we love in dS

Edit: I just remembered, Hurz told me several times in the past he would try to contact Shadowman about his maps but I guess those attempts failed.

[spleen17]

A master thread which lists all the applicable rules for each map, by this do you mean general Darts rules or unique map rules? Or even both... Personally I think it's a good idea in theory but I feel it could be useless as we already have all the rules in the Darts scheme page and all the unique map rules on the maps(granted some are missing eg. Shadowmans maps).

Yes I was thinking more about unique map rules, including basic stuff like whether rebound rule is active or not. Also even for simple maps there are still a few rare situations that could come up, for example on CourDarts and DragonDartZ there is one particular type of rebound that scores full instead of lesser (when you go straight in the cup and then out again, I think it came up earlier in this thread in a tour with Marian). There are probably more examples too, basically just anything that could cause confusion for each map.

We could also just add to the map pages instead ofc if MI gives us permission, a thread might be handy to sort it all out beforehand though.

also i'd like to thank you for the time, effort and level of comittment you are putting into Darts, this is part of the contribution we love in dS

np

[Triad]

Who's lagging tour updated.

[spleen17]

Who's lagging tour updated.

no map recs to do, lucky you

[Triad]

Who's lagging tour updated.

no map recs to do, lucky you

Oh forgot them, lemme handle them.

I cannot update dafuq is ymo tour cause cannot open docx xd

[spleen17]

Oh right, I thought it meant we didn't get any lol.

[Sensei]

I cannot update dafuq is ymo tour cause cannot open docx xd

ymo tour was f@#!ing sick!
it last 3 days i think.. and only 3 players haha
we had some wqdb material also..

[Mega`Adnan]

I cannot update dafuq is ymo tour cause cannot open docx xd

Well, the one with Word 2003 (compatibility mode) is inside rar too.

[Mega`Adnan]

Okey, here you go.