BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE

[philie]

+1 orvil

[TheWalrus]

+1 orvil

i think orvil was just celebrating chaoflux in his last post, phillie.

[DarkOne]

I mean that Hysteria has been part of the classic league for years even though it is known to be not even close to the acceptance of like elite or rr. You guys expect this issue to be resolved by the community imo. But that won't happen, that will be your job in the end but I think you are ignoring this issue by claiming this slim majority wins this argument because of "democracy".

This is just my viewing point, I have nothing against Hyst in particular, I can accept that it has followers and that it has a place in the league. But there is such a big audience that seems to be ignored by TUS, just think about some more realistic references and think if you could ignore the needs of 40%+ ppl in other situations.

If we ignored the needs of 40% of the people, we wouldn't be responding at all in this thread
Thing is, plenty of people like hysteria in the main league. Plenty of people don't like schemes like shopper, T17, BnG, WxW but there are no threads about removing those schemes. The problem is gameplay for a lot of people, obviously, so again: alternatives are what we need. Not discussions about ignoring people or reiterating the same stuff that's been said for 21 pages. I'm not hearing any of those, only selfish requests to remove hyst from the classic league.

I'm getting kind of tired of the "only noobs vote for hysteria" argument that keeps popping up, because it denigrates any achievement someone makes in hysteria. You want to know why hysteria seems easy to a lot of people to pick up? Because they learned other schemes first. Skills from elite, BnG, heck, even WxW/roper (last second decision making) gives you tools to make a dent with hysteria.

[Prankster]

That's all nice, DT, but how do you know the people behind the votes? And out of them, who are the true players?

[Anubis]

I mean that Hysteria has been part of the classic league for years even though it is known to be not even close to the acceptance of like elite or rr. You guys expect this issue to be resolved by the community imo. But that won't happen, that will be your job in the end but I think you are ignoring this issue by claiming this slim majority wins this argument because of "democracy".

This is just my viewing point, I have nothing against Hyst in particular, I can accept that it has followers and that it has a place in the league. But there is such a big audience that seems to be ignored by TUS, just think about some more realistic references and think if you could ignore the needs of 40%+ ppl in other situations.

If we ignored the needs of 40% of the people, we wouldn't be responding at all in this thread
Thing is, plenty of people like hysteria in the main league. Plenty of people don't like schemes like shopper, T17, BnG, WxW but there are no threads about removing those schemes. The problem is gameplay for a lot of people, obviously, so again: alternatives are what we need. Not discussions about ignoring people or reiterating the same stuff that's been said for 21 pages. I'm not hearing any of those, only selfish requests to remove hyst from the classic league.

I'm getting kind of tired of the "only noobs vote for hysteria" argument that keeps popping up, because it denigrates any achievement someone makes in hysteria. You want to know why hysteria seems easy to a lot of people to pick up? Because they learned other schemes first. Skills from elite, BnG, heck, even WxW/roper (last second decision making) gives you tools to make a dent with hysteria.

Responding and telling me you (TUS, not you in particular) don't ignore this issue is quite humorous because this is like what? The 10th time the same results and/or discussion has been a major topic in TUS. It "feels" ignored, I know you guys react to it but it feels ignored because you don't really make any decision of weight regarding this. You actually make a good point, why are there not so many threads about Shopper,BnG etc. Maybe it's because there really isn't such a huge antipathy towards those schemes after all. If it would even be close to the same level of Hyst (40:60) resistance, then I am sure it would have the same outrage every now and then, apparently it doesn't. If a major issue in any institution gets postponed again and again I simply get disappointed by the administration. Gather the information we (for and against Hysteria) already gave you numerous times in this and the countless other threads and then decide for your own what you think is best. Make a clear statement why YOU at TUS staff think Hysteria deserves to be in Classic League, or why it does not. So far all I see is: Hysteria is most popular, majority is slim but still majority so it stays. Lets just discuss the topic into oblivion and the "haters" are gone for another 2-3 months, then we do the same, is that what you think is a healthy league administration where a really close call in votes and important topic to many people doesn't get the (imo) appropriate attention.

And ignore the "scheme is for noobs" comments. I am not arguing with such arguments and I believe Hysteria deserves to be in the league but it needs to tweaked but the 60% against that are against any change at all. I would welcome any alteration you guys can suggest and try it out for a season.

[philie]

i think orvil was just celebrating chaoflux in his last post, phillie.

thats why

[TheKomodo]

I swear, this League better stay the way it is.

I hope these selfish clueless pricks don't get Hysteria removed.

[Doubletime]

If a noob met the best player in the entire world and played with said noob 50 times..Would it not be expected that he won every single game unless the scheme involved a significant chunk of luck ?

Intermidiate luckless does not hold any luck with this logic as Dario has mannaged to reach incredibly high winning streaks against intermidiate and advanced players on this very site while NNN was down. Therefore Intermidiate is essentially luck free even 1 on 1 in that sense. Ofc there is some ingame factors that are out of the players controll and may give one player good or bad luck (For example starting the game with bad starting positions.) So it is not truly luckless in a subjective way of analyzing it. But because the very best players have the abillity to go on winning streaks well beyond 50 in a competitive leauge playing with very good players the luck becomes very diminuative and thus is not a valid arguement as to why Intermidiate luckless should be used in a competitive leauge.

BnG is the same..As much as i really hate this bloody scheme Komo went on a winning streak well beyond 50 even well beyond 100.. This is because the luck part in BnG although present (Starting order and wind) Is insignificant. The luck part can not stop " the best player " and therefore is insignificant and can not be used as an arguement for why BnG should be removed.

When it comes to hysteria on the other hand... HAs any player ever goten a 50+ winning streak on it here in tus playing vs whoever is availible ? As far as i know this has yet to happend. That is because the luck is preventing the very best players from attaining such a winning streak. This is why those wicked noobs love hysteria.. It appears to demand skill but is just barely better than comet dodging in that regard.

<B>THIS is a proffesional classic leauge</B> and therefore i concur that some kind of standard should be enforced. If the majority of people voting would like coin tossing to be in the olympics would it be allowed ? OFC tit would be a joke !

So the large scores of noobs that are desperately crying in agony and fasting as a protest for hysteria to remain in classic should be ignored and shunned away. Monkey quality >>>>>>>quantity especially when the majority only holds as of now 57 percent of the votes.

Sure...Hysteria may very well be a fun scheme for simple people..BUT it should be in the free leauge or in a special hysteria/aerial leauge.The fools could go there while the quality of classic is greatly enhanced..Now if shopper would be removed in addition to intermidiate/luckless being added would make the classic leauge so much better..

Democracy is a bad way to rule a " proffesional " leauge Monkey..Huge scores of so easily manipulated fools can not produce something good. A wise leader or group who has a vantage point is going to have the abillity to make optimal descissions. SO unless someone can get atleast 50 wins in a row in hysteria while not noob bashing hysteria should be kicked out of the window. If you will truly base in on the dumb masses i will lose my respect for you...

I am also very dissapointed in you Komo..I expected you to have a wiser disposition.....

Sincerly..

/Orville "Doubletime" Sebastian Nordström

[TheKomodo]

My 1v1 win streak is still active for BnG btw, but even my streak is not right, I haven't played all the best players enough times. If every player was forced to play top players of their best scheme regulary, I have a strong feeling the highest streak for any scheme would be no higher than 15-25, and win % would be way under 90%. I could never ever reach this streak for BnG again, 1 main reason being I still play based on general instinct and so many players are notching now, i'd be lucky to get 30-40 wins without losing one now I reckon, plus I doubt i'll ever be as good as I was.

No one is as good at anything on WA as the TuS Statistics state, and it never will be because we can't make a balanced limit of games ensuring everyone plays everyone else an equal amount of times, this is another reason why the things darKz/Free/ShyGuy/etc say pisses me off, they are talking about "competitive" when the whole f@#!ing League balance is out the window no matter WHAT we do anyway, so we should definitely keep the League as fun and as enjoyable as possible while holding up as balanced a setup of schemes as possible, which we already have now.

[Doubletime]

Try to get 50 + wins in tus hysteria by simply playing against whoever wants to play with you in AG..Just like you did when you got that winning streak on BnG.. If you can get 50 wins in a row that way then hysteria is indeed not a scheme dependant on luck (Eventhough it will still be a horribly agonizing experience)

If you can not get 50 + wins ? Then hysteria is not as luckless as you claim......And should be bannished to a seperate leauge..

What do you mean with balance anyways ? I know that hysteria needs to go in order to improve the skill required to prevail in the leauge...I would also think ressurecting intermidiate/luckless back while getting rid of shoppa is a good idea..

[darKz]

The Dota 2 devs balance the game itself around the competitive scene. Why the WA community can't even balance a league around competition rather than activity/popularity is beyond me.

[TheKomodo]

Try to get 50 + wins in tus hysteria by simply playing against whoever wants to play with you in AG..Just like you did when you got that winning streak on BnG.. If you can get 50 wins in a row that way then hysteria is indeed not a scheme dependant on luck (Eventhough it will still be a horribly agonizing experience)

If you can not get 50 + wins ? Then hysteria is not as luckless as you claim......And should be bannished to a seperate leauge..

What do you mean with balance anyways ? I know that hysteria needs to go in order to improve the skill required to prevail in the leauge...I would also think ressurecting intermidiate/luckless back while getting rid of shoppa is a good idea..

Doubletime, I could easily avoid the top Hysteria players and have a good chance of winning 100/100 games, i'd definitely reach at least 90% without doubt, and that's even being rusty at the scheme.

darKz, Dota 2 has many many more players am I right? WA with such a small community, let's say, 200-500 active players, with only a handful who could beat the rest of wnet with 80%+ win ratio for their specialized schemes, except each other where the outcome is closer to 70%/60%/50%.

If we could force all participants to play each other a strict number of games, balanced with every scheme, then, and ONLY then, would this League be fair in a truly "competitive" way.

Until then, there isn't a valid enough reason to complain about Hysteria, or any other scheme, under the reason of "not being truly competitive", every single scheme has flaws, whether they are scheme flaws, difference of the technology used to play WA, to the unique abilities and intelligence of the Humans playing the game.

[Doubletime]

i said " IF YOU WHERE" playing against whoever wants to play with you in AG " This means that you will basically be givven random opponents..But if you need to have more rules then that very well..

*You are not allowed to play the same opponent more than 5 times.

*You are not allowed to avoid anyone that accepts the challenge when you ask in AG and must pick the first player to write that they are interested.

*Tied games will not count and will not break the streak.

Now go out and get them ! Get 50 wins in a row with theese rules and then we can talk...

[darKz]

Komo, that's like saying "there's air pollution from other sources anyway so why shouldn't we create more coal-fired power plants?" - it's just making things worse to think that way.

Solving the issue you're talking about is pretty easy (apart from the coding work, I don't know about that): No more searching for TUS games on AG; instead use a "match making" button on TUS that pairs you with a player as close as possible to your own (overall) rating, that's how it works for a dozen other competitively played games as well.

[Doubletime]

But what if a noob wants to play the best player posible and not another noob so he may move ahead towards greatness ? And are there really enough player to validate another client built for matchmaking ? 1 thing that could work is an event where a select number of players go into a leauge. And you get 3+ for a win 1+ for a draw and 0 for a loss..For example a 1 week long elite leauge and you can only play once vs the same opponent..Then the top 2 could duke it out in a showdown for the gold (Eventhough to be fair it wouldn't be needed but it would be awesome).

I personally think that a seperate topic should be created for matchmaking balance purposes..This one is focused on why Hysteria is such a horrid idea for a competitive leauge.

/Orville " Doubletime " Sebastian Nordström