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May 13, 2024, 11:38 PM

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Do you want Hysteria to be in Classic league?

YES
NO

Author Topic: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE  (Read 42171 times)

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Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #420 on: February 22, 2013, 05:33 PM »
I don't think turn order abuse should be eliminated entirely. I mean, it's even a valid tactic in elite. It would be silly to remove it from hysteria.
But at this point, I'd say we could give a lot of things a try in cups (oslt).


This is true; however, elite is not burdened with 1 second turn time where rotation rape is often uncountered and pulled off with ease.  A scheme like Aerial, 3 second turn time, keeps the craziness of hysteria while still allowing the option of rotation rape but gives the defender a better chance at countering it
  <-- my brain when I clan with avi

Offline Prankster

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #421 on: February 22, 2013, 05:35 PM »
You mean that "pondération"? Even if you take only schemes registered on TUS, there are 225 of them atm. But let's say 200, because there are some challenge schemes in that as well. Anyway, good luck with that! :)
Yes exactly, sometimes english doesn't help me :).
Well, no need to add the 200 schemes at all, it was just to answer how to balance scheme that people believe involve more luck and should be less important.
edit: by the way, back in the wl days there was no problem with playing any scheme in the league and I remember some clan had "randomlike" winning ratio just because they were better. Well, as I said before, it is my opinion that the only major error was to call the league "classic league". Anyways, nevermind it is off topic and free gonna rape me ;)
And I say allrounder league is up and running. And it's well thought-out. It will probably need some fining, but only after people realize it's quality and start designing their scheme picking style for it instead of classic league, generating representative sample for statistics doing so.

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #422 on: February 22, 2013, 05:39 PM »
Are you going to try to fix the problem or perhaps read any of the 20 times I mentioned randomsteria, ShyGuy?
You just posted a post that would put Komo to shame and did nothing but reiterate what problem you have. We get it. The sooner you realise we are actually making propositions in this very thread for at least 10 pages, the sooner things can actually change.

Or did you just propose putting aerial in the classic league? Bit too drastic if you ask me.

Offline TheKomodo

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #423 on: February 22, 2013, 05:49 PM »
Shyguy, at the same time as everything you mentioned, we also use the time early-mid game to secure the best positions possible on the map, or try and force opponent to weaker spots on the map.

Considering how accurate and consistent some players are at shooting with 1s turntime, myself included, and being aware of how accurate our opponents are, it's our job to secure a hide protecting ourselves from such "lucky shots", and with most of the better Hysteria players, these shots are not luck, it's experience and memory, it's just a matter of time before they get their shot right, this isn't luck, it's luck when it's someone who doesn't know what they are doing, and EVEN IF a complete noob beats a skilled player, I am very sure the skilled player made mistakes or missed a crucial shot.

You say it comes down to a 1v1 sillyfest? I've seen Elites come down to 1v1 fest waiting for opponent to make a mistake or manage to get a "lucky" grenade in or something. T17 comes down to 1v1 and "let's hope we get SD weapon in a crate", but same as Hysteria, waiting for opponent to make a mistake, or go for the shot if you have a chance.

Why does it matter how many different strategies there are available for a scheme? There is only 1 for TTRR - Finish faster than your opponent. There is only 1 for BnG - Kill your opponent before he kills you, there isn't anything special you can do in those schemes, so why is this such a problem? If those schemes only have 1 strategy, and they are both highly competitive and skilled, so is Hysteria. The same logic of a "lucky shot" can win a BnG or an Elite or a T17, or even a Shopper or a WxW if it manages to plop or put on a mine by accident... These are acceptable, why not Hysteria?

I really do think some people just don't have what it takes to play Hysteria competitively.

I think Hysteria is definitely worthy of being in Classic.


Offline Free

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #424 on: February 22, 2013, 06:14 PM »
Free tone it down a little bit? You haven't been warned here. Let's keep it that way?

It's Komo dragging people down to his level with his stupid ass comments, I've obviously made my conditions pretty clear, and they are not met and I'm not going to torture myself by playing any more lamesteria than I really need to. I'm not the public enemy #1 that has problems with Hysteria and I made myself pretty clear multiple times that I'm not going to play more than 1 top player simply because of my own well being and then "Mr. I know Everything because I say so" comes and tries to make me look like I'm avoiding something when I was the first one to put myself on the line.

The challenge would just be the cherry on top of why Hysteria should be moved/changed as scheme, and what those 10 games would show more than anything is that how lame and boring effective Hysteria tactics really are. I'm experienced enough as a default player and seen and played enough Hysterias to see the obvious flaws. 1 second is simply not enough. There's so many good posts by ShyGuy or people in previous thread trying to explain this already, it's not like I'm the first one trying to start some kind of revolution here.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 06:16 PM by Free »

Offline TheKomodo

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #425 on: February 22, 2013, 06:28 PM »
Free, I ain't dragging anyone down anywhere, you and the rest, are the ones who made this thread, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO OPENED THIS FREE SWEARING ABOUT 20 TIMES !

If you don't want to meet these conditions, simply stop posting.

Your proposition is pathetic Free and you know it, propose a REAL challenge like a man if you dare.

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #426 on: February 22, 2013, 06:39 PM »
Are you going to try to fix the problem or perhaps read any of the 20 times I mentioned randomsteria, ShyGuy?
You just posted a post that would put Komo to shame and did nothing but reiterate what problem you have. We get it. The sooner you realise we are actually making propositions in this very thread for at least 10 pages, the sooner things can actually change.

Or did you just propose putting aerial in the classic league? Bit too drastic if you ask me.

Some people still don't believe anything is wrong with hysteria as Komo just proved with his last post.

I used to be in favor of randomsteria, DarkOne, but the more I think about it, the less I like it.  I don't want to completely remove rotation advantage from the game, just make it more risk for the reward.  I don't like the idea of random turn order because:
1. You can still try rotation rape, which is good; however, you'd be relying on the random turn order for whether or not it will work out... You can't control the random turn order, so I don't like the idea of being countered or allowed a certain strat based off of a random factor you can't control, do you understand what I'm saying?  If I decide to telepile, the risk does go up because of random turn order, but if it does thwart me, it's not like the enemy team did anything to counter me, they just got fortunate with the turn order... there was no special move or skill they had to do, the turn order just happened to be in their favor. I hope I'm explaining this well enough. 
2. Random turn order makes it harder for you to organize moves within your own team because you don't know the order of your own team.  If you're setting stuff up, it's highly reliant on getting a good turn order.  It would be interesting if you could see your turn order but the enemy can't, but that's a discussion for another day.


Adding random turn order still doesn't fix the fundamental problem with hysteria, which is the 1 second turn time that breaks the scheme and allows for abuse in the scheme.  It's the 1 second turn time that makes the game design goals of hysteria not work.  So yes, Darkone, like I've pushed for before, I would like to see a 3 second hysteria variant like Aerial to replace the scheme.


You say it comes down to a 1v1 sillyfest? I've seen Elites come down to 1v1 fest waiting for opponent to make a mistake or manage to get a "lucky" grenade in or something. T17 comes down to 1v1 and "let's hope we get SD weapon in a crate", but same as Hysteria, waiting for opponent to make a mistake, or go for the shot if you have a chance.

Why does it matter how many different strategies there are available for a scheme? There is only 1 for TTRR - Finish faster than your opponent. There is only 1 for BnG - Kill your opponent before he kills you, there isn't anything special you can do in those schemes, so why is this such a problem? If those schemes only have 1 strategy, and they are both highly competitive and skilled, so is Hysteria. The same logic of a "lucky shot" can win a BnG or an Elite or a T17, or even a Shopper or a WxW if it manages to plop or put on a mine by accident... These are acceptable, why not Hysteria?


The fact that you're now placing my argument for other schemes shows you just don't understand or comprehend what I'm talking about.  I specifically said why the game mechanics of HYSTERIA run contrary to the game design goals of HYSTERIA.  My points will then obviously not apply to the other schemes. 

hysteria is supposed to be a default schemes where you use a variety of weapons in a strategic manner to kill the enemy worms and win the game.  These goals aren't met currently.
ttrr is supposed to show pure skill and demonstrate who the faster roper is.  The goals of that scheme are currently met. 

I'm not going to explain the differences between hysteria and every scheme, you should be able to figure it out.. i'm tired of typing long ass explanations just for you
  <-- my brain when I clan with avi

Offline MonkeyIsland

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #427 on: February 22, 2013, 06:47 PM »
ShyGuy, every scheme put in a competitive environment, over time it gets ridiculed.

  • BnG was supposed to be played with instincts. It is now being played by formulas.
  • TTRR 4 years ago was different to me. I used to see more roping styles. Today it's kinda like more people know fastest shortcuts and many attempts look alike.
  • Hysteria was a fun scheme. People used to pull crazy shots. Today you lose count of your worms and you get raped.

Don't think any new scheme like Aerial would skip that. Schemes in leagues, get chewed down to bits. That's why in my point of view, Team17 is the best scheme holding up.

Bottom line: When you're playing hysteria as a high stakes games, everyone's moves are forced because of they don't react in the traditional way, they are just going to take tons of damage and lose.  DO NOT MISTAKE THIS AS BEING A TACTICAL ASPECT OF THE GAME.  Remember, an enemy worm died (an event that is supposed to push you to victory because it works towards the goal of killing all their worms) but it forces your hand, if not you get raped... that's a clear sign of a broken scheme, I don't know how much clearer it can get.

You're misreading a simple logic. The goal is to kill enemy worms at the end of the game. How you accomplish that has nothing to do with this. If you plan to get behind and use that to kill all the enemy worms, then who cares? Insisting on mid game result must be a reflection on the final goal, just closes your mind to see more opportunities.

Yes, it's true that hysteria has some strategy; HOWEVER, it's a problem when you HAVE to use the SAME strategy every time or else you'll simply lose.  It leaves no room for variety, and I don't know how anyone can argue this - the proof is in thousands of hysteria replays where the same shit happens every game.

That is correct. But there are more classic schemes fit into that. Elite is more strategical than Hysteria. But the way you talk about variety, Elite is not the king of schemes. How many Elite games do you want me to point to that the first turns are just shotguns/axes? How many high level Elite games turn into Forts because nobody dares to invade?

Every scheme has its flaws and it's easy to write them down here. As I've said before, if this discussion's gonna progress any further, we need some real games.
Personally I don't like Hysteria the way I used to. It is just an annoying scheme to me now. But to get it removed, somebody's gotta be willing to go to distance. Looking down on the rest of the community, is not the way to do it. while you're on that, please add BnG to the removal list. Thanks :)
Due to massive misunderstandings: MonkeyIsland refers to an island not a monkey. I would be a monkey, if my name was IslandMonkey meaning a monkey who is or lives on an island. MonkeyIsland is an island which is related to monkeys. Also there's been a legend around saying MonkeyIsland is a game. So please, think of me as an island or a game.

Offline TheKomodo

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #428 on: February 22, 2013, 06:52 PM »
Shy, what makes you think that is what Hysteria is supposed to be? I think you are wrong, and I will be very surprised if you are right, considering the scheme is 1s turntime lol...

As far as I see it, it's supposed to be a scheme about quick thinking, doing the right thing at the right time, accuracy/consistency with 1s to aim/shoot with.

lol @ "komo jus proved" you are delerious man.

Offline Free

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #429 on: February 22, 2013, 07:08 PM »
Free, I ain't dragging anyone down anywhere, you and the rest, are the ones who made this thread, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO OPENED THIS FREE SWEARING ABOUT 20 TIMES !

If you don't want to meet these conditions, simply stop posting.

Your proposition is pathetic Free and you know it, propose a REAL challenge like a man if you dare.

Wow man.

Offline TheKomodo

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #430 on: February 22, 2013, 07:11 PM »
Ok then Free, I have an idea that might suit you, let's be serious about this.

For example:

You take on Casso.

Someone else takes on Gabriel.

Someone else takes on Random00.


Or if not all these people can play, there are few others of equal skill. How about that? Then this way you only have to play the amount of games you wanted?


Offline Chelsea

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #431 on: February 22, 2013, 07:16 PM »
Ok then Free, I have an idea that might suit you, let's be serious about this.

For example:

You take on Casso.

Someone else takes on Gabriel.

Someone else takes on Random00.


Or if not all these people can play, there are few others of equal skill. How about that? Then this way you only have to play the amount of games you wanted?

https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-standings/Hysteria/?s=overall

^^

I think, Gabriel, Random, Mavercik (looool), Crash are inactive, but Artic, Bryan, Casso and me can replace them ^^
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 07:18 PM by Chelsea »

Offline skOrpuz

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #432 on: February 22, 2013, 07:31 PM »
Artic, Bryan, Casso and Kaleu**

Offline TheKomodo

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #433 on: February 22, 2013, 07:34 PM »
If I only have to play 10 games, I guess I can volunteer if needed also, if we can get 5 sets of 10 games done with the average joe Vs top player, that would be a good estimate I think.

If this happened, and there were 5 sets, and for example these were results:

Set A - Pro 8 / Joe 2
Set B - Pro 9 /  Joe 1
Set C - Pro 6 /  Joe 4
Set D - Pro 7 /  Joe 3
Set E - Pro 8 / Joe 2

We could say, well Pro "C"  still won 60% of his games, and the rest won 70% 80% 80% & 90%, so Hysteria stays the way it is.

I think we would perhaps need a result of 3 players to win 40% or more games or an average of 40%+ lost by the pros.

This is definitely something I think we could work on?


Offline Chelsea

Re: BAN HYSTERIA FROM DEFAULT LEAGUE
« Reply #434 on: February 22, 2013, 08:03 PM »
Artic, Bryan, Casso and Kaleu**

kaleu hates hysteria ^^

after this game https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-139306/

I'm higher than Kaleu ^^
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 09:02 PM by Chelsea »